Right.
Which means your belief was wrong, since the Devs have confirmed their Class considerations goes against your belief, and not in favour of it.
But hey, the koolaid is stronger than truth I guess. I mean, if you think Arthas using runes makes him a Runemaster, you might as well go all the way and say he's a Demon Hunter too since he hunted Demons. Who are we to argue what you believe?
Priests had mana burn a Demon Hunter ability, does that make Priests Demon Hunters? Rogues had evasion does that make Rogues Demon Hunters? Warlocks had metamorphosis for years but that didn't make them "demon hunters" in concept
Pre-WoLK the only example of a character, class or anything WoW related bearing the name "runemaster" was the TTRPG Runemaster, which is a monk-like unarmed fighter who enhances themselves with runes.
Death Knights possessing a runeblade doesn't make them "runemasters" because thats a more specific concept that existed in the TTRPG, before Runemasters appeared in WoW and before Death Knights were given rune-based abilities beyond flavor text.
Last edited by Imperator4321; 2021-04-12 at 06:54 PM.
And again, we have multiple examples of WoW devs being dishonest about future classes and content.
Considering that we have no clear definition of what a Runemaster is, why couldn’t a master user of a rune blades not be considered a “runemaster”?But hey, the koolaid is stronger than truth I guess. I mean, if you think Arthas using runes makes him a Runemaster, you might as well go all the way and say he's a Demon Hunter too since he hunted Demons. Who are we to argue what you believe?
We have a clear definition of what Necromancer is and you still consider the Death Knight to be a Necromancer.
I mean, what point is there to have a clear definition or not? You'd just as likely argue that Arthas was a Demon Hunter because he hunted Demons. Heck, he's even a Blademaster since he mastered the use of a bladed weapon, Frostmourne.
Demon Hunters were a defined concept, crystallized by Illidan, the hero unit, and Demon Hunters in TBC. Runemasters had nothing like that.
And it was never a well defined concept outside of the TTRPG.Pre-WoLK the only example of a character, class or anything WoW related bearing the name "runemaster" was the TTRPG Runemaster, which is a monk-like unarmed fighter who enhances themselves with runes.
The problem is that we never saw such a concept in WoW itself. Instead, the concept of runeblades were carried over from WC3 and expanded upon within the DK class. The TTRPG runemaster concept was completely ignored. Even the Runemasters that appeared in WoW were not Monk-like, and actually reinforced the runic concept pushed by the DK class.Death Knights possessing a runeblade doesn't make them "runemasters" because thats a more specific concept that existed in the TTRPG, before Runemasters appeared in WoW and before Death Knights were given rune-based abilities beyond flavor text.
Except the Runemaster was a clear concept, from the TTRPG who enhances themselves with runes and fights unarmed
"Runemasters are monk-like arcane spellcaster and melee fighters who empower themselves with magical energies by inscribing runes onto their bodies."
"He merges brute strength with arcane magic, covering his body with mystic tattoos and often imbuing them with magical energies to increase his skill in hand-to-hand combat. "
"Runemasters fill many roles. They are adept melee combatants. They possess runes to enhance themselves and their allies, as well as to ward certain areas and otherwise make life difficult for their opponents."
All of this comes from the TTRPG released years before Wrath of the Lich King.
Death Knights beyond flavor text and lore had no explicitly rune-based powers or abilities, runic power, runeforging all of that was added in Wrath which is after the Death Knight absorbed concepts surrounding the other runner-ups the Runemaster and Necromancer (from which it also got abilities like corpse explosion)
Do you think Blizzard wasn't taking inspiration from the TTRPG when they though of a monk-like fighter who enhanced themselves with Runes? sharing the exact same name as it's TTRPG counterpart?
We never saw Mistweaving until MoP, the same expansion it was introduced in, same with celestials, chi, chinese style martial arts, there are like 5 NPC's in the whole game who use the title Runemaster, thats like judging what the Monk class would be entirely from the this NPC or judging everything the Demon Hunter class would do from the mobs found in BC.
Last edited by Imperator4321; 2021-04-12 at 07:19 PM.
Ask the developers. They're the one that thought the runemaster was a worthwhile addition. And the fact the runemaster was considered, it not only counters the idea that we need WC3 units as a basis, but it also counters the notion that a class must be tied to a 'big hero/villain' in the expansion.
Not to mention your argument here is an "appeal to ignorance" fallacy: "there's no way any other class could be considered because I cannot think of anything."
They haven't, though. Being able to use necromancy is not exclusive to necromancers. Death knights and dark rangers also use necromancy. And wielding weapons (or amor) with runes engraved on them certainly does not mean the class is a "master of runes", either. Otherwise, my paladin is a runemaster too, then.But those ideas from the other concepts were already wrapped up in the DK concept long before WotLK came around. Again, DKs had concepts from both Runemasters and Necromancers, so in what scenario do you go with those options when you have the more popular concept that encapsulates your other concepts?
Wrong. That was not what they said. They said they had no plans to share about the possibility of a demon hunter class, not that they didn't have any plans for the demon hunter.Perhaps the same reason they lied about having "no plans" for the Demon Hunter class in early 2015, only to announce the Demon Class in August of the same year.
Those are nowhere near the same thing as "lying about what classes they have once in the past considered." The Demon Hunter and Mists of Pandaria were only they had no plans they wanted to share, considering that speaking of those ahead of time would spoil the surprise of the reveal. With the runemaster? What exactly are they spoiling about revealing that they once considered the runemaster as a potential expansion class? Nothing.Or how Blizzard denied that Mists of Pandaria was the next expansion, only to announce Mists of Pandaria as the next expansion a few months later.
And again: Teriz, stop dismissing what the developers say when it doesn't fit your narrative.
- - - Updated - - -
Are you really arguing that wielding a runeblade makes one into a runemaster by default?
Last edited by Ielenia; 2021-04-12 at 07:47 PM.
"Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
"You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
"They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...
The rune carving aspects of Runemasters was obviously absorbed by Death Knights and the Martial Arts aspect was obviously absorbed by Monks. There's also the problem that we see literally zero Runemasters throughout the entire lore of the playable game. Runemaster is a half baked concept to begin with, cool but it isn't canon.
And it isn't canon.
And again, it isn't canon. In addition, the Death Knight hero predates the TTRPG. Further, we have no example of a TTRPG Runemaster in WoW itself."Runemasters are monk-like arcane spellcaster and melee fighters who empower themselves with magical energies by inscribing runes onto their bodies."
"He merges brute strength with arcane magic, covering his body with mystic tattoos and often imbuing them with magical energies to increase his skill in hand-to-hand combat. "
"Runemasters fill many roles. They are adept melee combatants. They possess runes to enhance themselves and their allies, as well as to ward certain areas and otherwise make life difficult for their opponents."
All of this comes from the TTRPG released years before Wrath of the Lich King.
Again, Arthas using Frostmourne goes beyond simple flavor text. That ties the Death Knight concept to the use of runes and runic power, and the flavor text simply backs up what we see Arthas do throughout RoC and TFT. The hero unit doesn't need explicit abilities to further that theme, it's a part of the lore of the Death Knight itself.Death Knights beyond flavor text and lore had no explicitly rune-based powers or abilities, runic power, runeforging all of that was added in Wrath which is after the Death Knight absorbed concepts surrounding the other runner-ups the Runemaster and Necromancer (from which it also got abilities like corpse explosion)
I don't know where Blizzard took the inspiration for the TTRPG Runemaster from. However, it's awfully interesting that the DK had a hero character (Arthas), had a WC3 hero to define its abilities (DK), and had DKs appear in WoW before its introduction. The Runemaster had none of that treatment. So it's a little hard for me to believe that it was on equal conceptual footing with the DK concept.Do you think Blizzard wasn't taking inspiration from the TTRPG when they though of a monk-like fighter who enhanced themselves with Runes? sharing the exact same name as it's TTRPG counterpart?
You're comparing a spec to an entire concept. The Monk class had Chen Stormstout, the WC3 Brewmaster hero, and the entire Pandaren lore and concept. Again, the Runemaster had nothing like that.We never saw Mistweaving until MoP, the same expansion it was introduced in, same with celestials, chi, chinese style martial arts, there are like 5 NPC's in the whole game who use the title Runemaster, thats like judging what the Monk class would be entirely from the this NPC or judging everything the Demon Hunter class would do from the mobs found in BC.
I don't think the Runemasters viability as a class is the question (as you said it's two major aspects runecarving and martial arts have gone to different classes) but the fact that it was considered twice for implimentation (once in classic and again with WoLK) shows that Blizzard doesn't only consider WC3 hero units when it comes to new classes since the Runemaster as a class only existed in the TTRPG
You can also add Fire Mages to the list of Runemasters since they used a Runeblade Felo'melorn throughout the entire Legion expansion.
Last edited by Imperator4321; 2021-04-12 at 08:20 PM.
Except we never got a Runemaster class. Instead every class we got since Vanilla has had a WC3 basis, and is tied to a big hero/villain in the expansion.
I never made that argument. I'm saying that the supposed conceptual classes which were competing with the DK were already a part of the DK concept, which makes it doubtful that they were ever truly possible independent class concepts.Not to mention your argument here is an "appeal to ignorance" fallacy: "there's no way any other class could be considered because I cannot think of anything."
BTW, the lack of a Necromancer class in Shadowlands reinforces this argument.
You're seriously comparing an item to integral lore surrounding the Death Knight?They haven't, though. Being able to use necromancy is not exclusive to necromancers. Death knights and dark rangers also use necromancy. And wielding weapons (or amor) with runes engraved on them certainly does not mean the class is a "master of runes", either. Otherwise, my paladin is a runemaster too, then.
I never said they were lying. I said that they have been dishonest or misled in the past. For example, Tom Chilton stating rebuking rumors around MoP being the next expansion;Those are nowhere near the same thing as "lying about what classes they have once in the past considered." The Demon Hunter and Mists of Pandaria were only they had no plans they wanted to share, considering that speaking of those ahead of time would spoil the surprise of the reveal. With the runemaster? What exactly are they spoiling about revealing that they once considered the runemaster as a potential expansion class? Nothing.
https://web.archive.org/web/20110925...1191590p1.html
What's the reason? As I said before, it makes future classes rather easy to predict. So why not toss a few non-starters into the mix to make people believe they have hundreds of class concepts while we ignore the fact that the last three expansion classes are all from WC3, all major hero characters, and were hinted at years before their debut.
You'd have racial abilities of the Venthyr.
Claiming one's argument is arbitrary because you're frustrated in your inability to prove me wrong, doesn't make you any righter.
That's what called an updated and modern iteration of a 20 year old unit.It's not meaningless. Because the HotS Illidan plays nothing like the WC3 demon hunter unit. Their abilities are nothing alike, too. The HotS version has many ways to quickly get up-and-personal with the enemies, while the WC3 stays at range when in metamorphosis. HotS version self-heals, while WC3 version has self-immolation.
Does Illidan in HotS have Evasion & Metamorphosis abilities and an Immolation talent? yes. He's only lacking Mana Burn, because it, probably, didn't fit much.
Foreigner is too general for me. It's like saying all classes come from Warcraft. We need more specific information if we'd want to predict classes.No, we don't. I don't need to know exactly where a person comes from to know it's a foreigner. Suffices to know that they don't live in the same country as I do.
A panda martial artist? Can only think of Po.We can, though. Pandas aren't exactly something Blizzard created, you know? Nor the drunken fighting. Or chi.
Though, it doesn't matter if characters are outsourced to older, historic ones, because this whole game is based on inspiration from other sources like mythologies, fantasy settings and RPG games. It's not specific for classes.
Sure thing, buddy. -_-I can, actually. It's easy to make an argument that the WC3 pandaren brewmaster was used for flavor and a link to a notable NPC.
The Pandaren Brewmaster was, merely, a small tribute That's why it appeared on the game box, cinematic trailer, in game, ushered in the Monk class and, basically, was the inspiration for the entire expansion. But, whatever you say...
Yes, it is. Early considerations are not as profound as those that are, actually, implemented. There are several stages for an expansion idea: brainstorming, drafts, pre-production and implementation.Not the same thing. We're talking about playable classes here.
Oh, yeah... i bet they fight like a drunken irish boxer -_-Yeah, it doesn't. Because "unique fighting style" does not equate to "oriental style martial arts". And "drunken brawler"? Really? Any drunkard that starts a fight is a "drunken brawler".
It was, pretty, obvious. You're just trying to find excuses.
No shit, sherlock. -_-Except I'm not making things up. Anchorites are really just a different name for 'priests' for the draenei. And the tauren's Sunwalkers? They're paladins, but they don't use the Light.
Eredar Mages were called Wakeners.
There's nothing original about San'layn. They're vampiric Blood elves, like FelBlood elves. Venthyr don't need to suck blood. Their anima manipulation and consumption is enough to correlate them to vampirism. It's obvious when their castle is based on Dracula's castle and their use of Gargoyles and Carriages are a testimony to old vampire depictions.It doesn't change the fact that the San'layn are more a 'true vampire' than the Venthyr. Venthyr don't suck blood, San'layn do. San'layn are literally 'born' from being bitten. Venthyr just... are born out of souls. And more.
Not all Hunters are rangers in lore.
Everything fits if you push it hard enough.you did, and if you used the two neurons to read the rest you could see that there is multiple races who fit that description and are also called rangers like orcs and pandarens
you are again, cherypicking evidence
Point is, they would have been mentioned if they were rangers.
Wrong again.im talking about lore points, dark rangers are forsaken only, if they are teaching other races they can teach any race who can shot a bow
Dark Rangers are not forsaken only, but undead High elves, Night elves and Humans, too.
This can be attributed to their ranger backgrounds in life.
Whatever you say...nope, its your headcanon, totally wrong.
*Literally backing up my argument with lore sources, but who cares, eh?*
I wouldn't be concerned about that as much as their exposure to light.
They could learn to sustain themselves on other things, like Blood elves and Nightborne learned to do.
If you're not using lore, then yes.
But, that's just shitty.
Exactly.
Much like how undead need to drain lives to sustain/repair themselves.
I'm not falling into that trap again.
This is the last time you try to shove the Tinker into my throat.
Actually, there are Dregmar Runebrand (Magnataur), Runemaster Molgeim (Iron Vrykul), Runemaster Skomjorn (Vrykul), Iron Rune Runemaster (Iron Dwarf) and Gorian Runemaster (Ogre).
They use abilities like:
Rune Shield — Protects the caster from all damage for 30 sec.
Shield of Runes — Covers the caster in magic runes, absorbing up to 20000 damage. If 20000 damage is absorbed, this damage in converted into a powerful burst of energy, increasing the caster's damage by 50% for 15 sec.
Rune of Power — Summons a Rune of Power under a random friendly target. This rune increases damage by 50% of all friendly and enemy targets within 5 yards.
Rune of Death — Summons a Rune of Death at a random enemy target's location. This rune deals 2750 Shadow damage every half-second to anyone within 13 yards of that location. Only available when under the affect of [Supercharge].
Rune of Summoning — Creates a Rune of Summoning near a random enemy. This rune will periodically summon Lightning Elementals, which will rush towards random enemies and explode. Only available with 2 stacks of Supercharge.
Lightning Blast — Unleashes a large blast of lightning, dealing 9425 to 10575 Nature damage to all enemies within 30 yards of the caster but killing the caster in the process. Only available with 2 stacks of Supercharge.
Rune of Destruction - Marks an enemy with destructive arcane energy, inflicting 18525 to 20475 Arcane damage to them and their allies within 6 yards for 15 sec.
Rune of Disintegration - Conjures a field of arcane energy that persists for 30 sec. Enemies within the field suffer 12500 Arcane damage every 0.5 sec.
Rune of Unmaking - Inflcits 17005 to 18795 Arcane damage to an enemy.
Rune of Destruction - Marks an enemy with destructive arcane energy, inflicting 18525 to 20475 Arcane damage to them and their allies within 6 yards for 15 sec.
Runemaster's Pauldrons
Item Level 910
Binds when picked up
Unique-Equipped: Legion Legendary (1)
Leather
Shoulder
301 Armor
+1786 Agility
+2680 Stamina
+827 Critical Strike
+459 Haste
Equip: Metamorphosis resets the remaining cooldown on all your Sigils and Empower Wards, and grants you 1 charge of Demon Spikes.
Durability 120 / 120
Classes: Demon Hunter
Requires Level 110
"Molgeim of the Assembly of Iron mastered the use of runes for a myriad of devastating effects."
As for the discussion going on here about Runemasters. Rune magic is not unique to Death Knights. Runemasters don't even portray a human, but mostly Tauren in the RPG sources and other non-Death Knight races in the game (like i listed above) except for maybe two (Vrykul and Ogre) which are, currently, not playable.
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Rune_magic
Last edited by username993720; 2021-04-12 at 08:52 PM.
But it doesn't matter, though. The simple fact that the runemaster concept was one of the three finalists despite not having a "WC3 basis", beating other concepts that not only have "WC3 basis" but also were much more popular, like demon hunter and tinker, proves that "needs WC3 basis" is not a requirement, and exists solely in your head.
Except they weren't. Wielding a runic blade does not make one a runemaster. Again: my paladin wields a runeblade. Is my paladin a runemaster, then? You're cheapening the concept of the runemaster by saying all there needs to be done for one to be a runemaster is to wield a runeblade.I'm saying that the supposed conceptual classes which were competing with the DK were already a part of the DK concept, which makes it doubtful that they were ever truly possible independent class concepts.
It does not, as explained many times, already.BTW, the lack of a Necromancer class in Shadowlands reinforces this argument.
Yes, I am. Because you're misrepresenting the lore. All it is said about the WC3 death knight is that they wield runeblades. It doesn't say they are the ones that create the runeblades. It doesn't say that the death knights are masters of runes. You're making a gigantic leap of logic here, one that also makes my paladin a runemaster because, again, my paladin wields a runeblade.You're seriously comparing an item to integral lore surrounding the Death Knight?
By accusing them of telling a "dubious story" and that they're "misleading" you, you are saying they lied. If you're accusing them of not telling the truth, you are calling them liars.I never said they were lying. I said that they have been dishonest or misled in the past.
They never outright said that "mists of pandaria" is not going to be the next expansion.For example, Tom Chilton stating rebuking rumors around MoP being the next expansion;
https://web.archive.org/web/20110925...1191590p1.html
Extremely made up nonsense. Again, lying about the runemaster being one of the top three picks for Wrath in nothing helps Blizzard. "Predicting classes" is a non-issue, considering people literally keep watch of what Blizzard trademarks, examine each and every possible "seed" within the game, and even read between the lines in their books, comics and other Warcraft-related games.What's the reason? As I said before, it makes future classes rather easy to predict. So why not toss a few non-starters into the mix to make people believe they have hundreds of class concepts while we ignore the fact that the last three expansion classes are all from WC3, all major hero characters, and were hinted at years before their debut.
"Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
"You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
"They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...
You just.....really don't care about lore unless it suits your narrative huh? Races in the Shadowlands can't leave for extended amounts of time because their existence depends on anima. So making them playable would make no fucking sense from a lore standpoint. Though I'm not sure why I'm bothering because you perpetually pick and choose lore tidbits instead of looking at the entire picture.
It is arbitrary, though. You came up with those based on observation alone. There is nothing that makes your "rules" a fact.
Except the HotS hero plays nothing like the WC3 unit. "Updating" means improving what is there, not removing what it has and putting new, different stuff. That's like saying the spoon is an "updated and modern iteration" of the fork done by removing the fork's teeth and undulating the flat par.That's what called an updated and modern iteration of a 20 year old unit.
Does Illidan in HotS have Evasion & Metamorphosis abilities and an Immolation talent? yes. He's only lacking Mana Burn, because it, probably, didn't fit much.
That's on you, though. Not me.Foreigner is too general for me.
Except we're not trying to "predict classes", here. We're talking specifically about the monk class. If we want to predict classes, we need to see what Blizzard is doing within the game's lore right now, not scour previous games and see what player units are still unused.It's like saying all classes come from Warcraft. We need more specific information if we'd want to predict classes.
Pandas are one of China's most popular, well, anything. I don't think there's anything out of China that is more popular than the panda. And also we have oriental-style martial arts. It's not hard to put both together when we're talking about a game with anthropomorphic animals, I hope.A panda martial artist? Can only think of Po.
I would say that the entirety of Pandaria and its culture was derived from chinese culture, considering the monk class concept in popular media is of an oriental-style character.Sure thing, buddy. -_-
The Pandaren Brewmaster was, merely, a small tribute That's why it appeared on the game box, cinematic trailer, in game, ushered in the Monk class and, basically, was the inspiration for the entire expansion. But, whatever you say...
No, they're not. Classes are not designed the same way as stuff like Dance Studio or an in-game profession. And the point that the runemaster was indeed considered twice, and almost made the cut, shows that we don't need Warcraft 3 heroes to base a class on.Yes, it is. Early considerations are not as profound as those that are, actually, implemented. There are several stages for an expansion idea: brainstorming, drafts, pre-production and implementation.
It's only obvious if you're engaging in confirmation bias.Oh, yeah... i bet they fight like a drunken irish boxer -_-
It was, pretty, obvious. You're just trying to find excuses.
I never said the San'layn are original, so I don't know why you decided to point that out. I simply pointed out that the San'layn are more like "true vampires" than the venthyr, considering the San'layn are actually born out of a blood curse, are undead, and require to drain blood. The venthyr are none of that.There's nothing original about San'layn. They're vampiric Blood elves, like FelBlood elves. Venthyr don't need to suck blood. Their anima manipulation and consumption is enough to correlate them to vampirism. It's obvious when their castle is based on Dracula's castle and their use of Gargoyles and Carriages are a testimony to old vampire depictions.
"Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
"You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
"They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...