Solution for M+ leavers....

[craigw]

lots of bitching. i heal up to 20s. holy paladin. 14-15s are a complete joke if mechanics and interrupts happen. little to no healing going out. i dps most of the time. its when dps fail to mechanics........ tyrannical hard ROFL. its only harder on the healer. no one else. if you dont heal you really have no opinion on this matter. how is boss fights with more health hard on damage dealers? tyrannical needs to exist. you shit players dont que for a lot of dungeons on tyrannical week. i find far less group failures. fort is when all the baddies come "pushing" keystone master lol.

[ellieg]

Of course you do. If you get your IO up high enough, you're fine. It's the slog to do that which is painful for some specs. What do you need to do to get a high IO? Do lots of keys, right?* But if you're playing a spec that makes it hard to get lots of invites.... I'll leave the rest as and exercise to the reader.



*and move their level up and time them, but...

You mean like playing a frost dk? Trust me, invites are hard for me too. But I created my own groups and pushed my own key

[scientific]

The Timer isn't the issue, the "why should I waste my time" is the issue.

Consider: +10 Tyrannical PF. First boss, and group for whatever reason can't make it. Slimes are loose, DMG sucks, and people can't move.

Good on you if you want to stay, but expecting others to stay seems unrealistic.

Perhaps if the timers stopped if a player left the group...but without thinking, I already can see how may be exploited.

Completely agree. People think leaving is toxic, and on occasion it can be but lets be honest most people know in the first few minutes if a run is going to be a disaster or not and if you can't tell it's normally because you are part of the disaster, a lot of people have limited time to play the game and normally have time constraints which they would rather not waste on a group that is destined to be in there for a long time. Healers are rarely the problem, it's almost always dps who can't do anything other than damage(sitting on same mob for a hour because you can't interrupt a heal), or tanks who don't know routes, or group bad meshing packs

[anon5123]

Lol. So what if I do "participate" but in a negative way?

Then you get removed from the group.
Lol.

Or we can take Ion's suggestion: M+ is meant for groups of players who are either friends or guildmates so that there already exists a social contract that can penalize bad/toxic players.

So if none of my friends or guildmates are on, that means I can't play the game.
Glad you're not working for Blizzard.

But my PuG? Hey this is a MMO, go make friends. If you want to solo the game, there are plenty of RPGs that are solo-based (i.e. Skyrim, Witcher, etc).

"nooo pugs BAD pugs BAD, everything must be friends and guilds or else that means you're trying to play solo!!!!"
Big yikes.

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Anyone here who is good at developing addons? I can be your product owner and together we will develop the M+ Rater (TM)

Basically, it's a 5 star rating system for each key that you are running. You would be able to rate other players from the group at two occasions, using an in-game overlay:

* After defeating the last boss
* At the moment the first player leaves the group before the last boss was defeated

You could expand on that to rate class skill, dungeon knowledge and friendliness.

Bye toxic.io and burn in hell where you belong to.

Do you know how anonymous online reviewing works? Happy people are not inclined to rate 5 stars, but unhappy people ALWAYS will rate 1 star. Literally everyone's player profile would be littered with 1 star reviews, regardless of how good they are. And trying to coerce people to give positive ratings doesn't work either, because like Overwatch showed, people don't care and will just throw out positive ratings willy-nilly to get the rewards from them.

[chiddie]

The Timer isn't the issue, the "why should I waste my time" is the issue.

Consider: +10 Tyrannical PF. First boss, and group for whatever reason can't make it. Slimes are loose, DMG sucks, and people can't move.

Good on you if you want to stay, but expecting others to stay seems unrealistic.

Perhaps if the timers stopped if a player left the group...but without thinking, I already can see how may be exploited.

As I said before, at least for me your scenario is not my average scenario. I ran over 80 M+ timed or not timed till now and the ones “we can’t even make first boss, let’s disband” have been maybe 10% of them.

Yesterday I ran a HoA 14, timer ended at beginning of third boss, no prob, we finished it in par plus 7-8 minutes. It’s not we couldn’t make it, we couldn’t make it IN TIME. That’s the point.

Really hopeless runs are not that many. But M+ is all about the timer so people leave at first wipe because they feel if they don’t beat it it’s not worth finish the dungeon. It’s not true because in the end you still have loot, anima and valor but it’s clearly just not enough.

I understand the value of the timer but seeing the situation maybe they should give ppl “something” to push them completing dungeons even if they see they won’t make it in time, given time above par won’t be that huge.

[kamuimac]

An arbitrary comparison does rarely work in you favor of your argument, you can't compare so different things so easily.

I'm sorry, but if +15s were done with 195 ilvl, and you cant do them with 215, it is a you problem.

ddi you personaly do m+15 in 195 gear ? did anyone in your guild did it with 195 gear ? did literaly anyone in this thread did it with full team of 195 gear not getting carried with 195 by 226 itlv people in group ?

can you pls stop spreading lies about general playerbase which should be doing +15 with 195 gear ?

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Completely agree. People think leaving is toxic, and on occasion it can be but lets be honest most people know in the first few minutes if a run is going to be a disaster or not and if you can't tell it's normally because you are part of the disaster, a lot of people have limited time to play the game and normally have time constraints which they would rather not waste on a group that is destined to be in there for a long time. Healers are rarely the problem, it's almost always dps who can't do anything other than damage(sitting on same mob for a hour because you can't interrupt a heal), or tanks who don't know routes, or group bad meshing packs

ye no - i disagree with this strongly - same liek with people saying that tanks are not the problem

i have seen so many runs break due to tank/healer being undergeared and just dying/not being able to keep people up

i have yet to see a single +13/14 fail when literaly full group is 220 without even a single memeber below

u have seen so many +12/13 break because for example dps were 215 but healer being 205 and not keeping people alive.

mistakes happen - yes they shouldnt happen - but geared people can offset it.

[Nite92]

ddi you personaly do m+15 in 195 gear ? did anyone in your guild did it with 195 gear ? did literaly anyone in this thread did it with full team of 195 gear not getting carried with 195 by 226 itlv people in group ?

can you pls stop spreading lies about general playerbase which should be doing +15 with 195 gear ?

Please read, comprehend, and then answer.
I never said that everyone is doing +15s in 195. I said that, +15s with 210-215 ilvl are pretty easy.

I got by ksm achievement back in early jannuary with roughly 215 ilvl, when our characters were weaker, missing alot of power from our soulbinds. And a lot of it was done with a non meta comp. Shadowpriest, warlock and monk tank were in there for most our first 15s.
No need for large pulls, you can just do it pack by pack and quite comfortably time it.

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if the healer is not able to keep up you are taking too much damage... start avoiding damage... the healer should have to do max 3k hps in a +12... higher than that and you're taking massive amounts of avoidable damage...

What is that random nonsense number. Overall dps/hps in a dungeon is useless information unless you know which dungeon/pulls were made.

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I never said I don’t like the timer, I was only thinking about finding something else and give that a try. Because it’s clear that 99% of M+ issues are caused by the timer.

Why always these asspull numbers. They only weaken your argument. M+ would be the worst thing without a timer.

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Yes but also no. Many people leave at first wipe, even if it’s after 5 minutes. This is insane.

So what? I am allowed to leave. Especially if the run is a miserable experience.

[Nite92]

no its not... most people in +12 aren't doing any weird or big pulls and are doing 1 to 1 pack pulls...

I dunno what to say. You are just incorrect. There is a reason why people dont care about wcl rankings for dungeons.

[Niwes]

its so sweet how ppl go like „i really cant understand why Blizzard not offering anything...“ or „since they not offered a solution it seems not that easy“.

omfg, if i would work at Blizzard i would laugh my ass of these idiots.

look: they DONT wanna fix this at all. it not just stretches their content/subs, it also supports boost groups selling M+. and how ppl pay that grps ? with gold ofc. so they go and buy a token. and Blizz sells a Token and make 7 bugs profit for free. its called smart cash grab systems. are you guys that stupid that you dont realize this ?

just for the sake of clarification: the prerequisite that some guy can buy a token on AH is, that another guy had put in a Token into the AH first. this means blizz dont get the 13 bugs of the one buying the token, but 20 bugs of the one that had put it into the AH. this means in short: Blizz earns 7 bugs for free, by doing nothing, for every token ever passing the AH. and their game design supports a good amount of token transfer since years. m+ and leavers is just one aspect of it. they simply support their cash grab system. did you not realize that ???

so, ofc they can fix it. in an blink of an eye. but they DONT WANT that. obviously.

cant understand how so many ppl be that blind/stupid.

[Ludek]

Wrong. Please re-read my post, that's not what I said. The only way to measure skill in M+ is the timer. If you don't like the timer, find a game that doesn't have timed dungeons instead of complaining that Blizzard doesn't design the game around your singular voice.

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Yes, I too will enjoy pulling 7 groups with cooldowns then waiting 8 minutes to do it again. This sounds like fun and exciting game play. Where do I sign u-

...fuck, I fell asleep typing that. Sorry.

If the content is designed around it, the timer is not the only way to measure skill - look Mage Tower for example. Also you can still still have timer for bragging rights / cosmetics. Removing it from the "completion" requirement for the key changes nothing for the "competitive M+" - keys above 14 are just done only for the bragging rights / self progress so the timers are perfectly fine for just having a score / ranking / achievement.

Below 15 do you really care if some random pug group wants to spend 5h in one dungeons lusting on every pack? RIO already shows appropriate points difference between a group that +3 that dungeon over someone who failed the timer by an hour.

The "slow pug" will not be bothered to go above 14, as there are no additional rewards for them, nothing changes for people pushing keys in a dedicated group for the fun and glory of it - they will still be doing their push to get +28 done in time for those sweet sweet RIO points.

[chiddie]

Please read, comprehend, and then answer.
I never said that everyone is doing +15s in 195. I said that, +15s with 210-215 ilvl are pretty easy.

I got by ksm achievement back in early jannuary with roughly 215 ilvl, when our characters were weaker, missing alot of power from our soulbinds. And a lot of it was done with a non meta comp. Shadowpriest, warlock and monk tank were in there for most our first 15s.
No need for large pulls, you can just do it pack by pack and quite comfortably time it.

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What is that random nonsense number. Overall dps/hps in a dungeon is useless information unless you know which dungeon/pulls were made.

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Why always these asspull numbers. They only weaken your argument. M+ would be the worst thing without a timer.

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So what? I am allowed to leave. Especially if the run is a miserable experience.

You can’t tell if it will be miserable after 5 minutes. You can sometimes tell you probably won’t time it, but not timing is different from “miserable experience”.

[ellieg]

If you consistently aren't timing keys, you are the problem one way or the other. I dont mean the 1 or 2 times it happens, im talking multiple times a week. If you're the leader, you arent forming groups correctly. If you're the tank, your route or survivability sucks. If you're the healer, you aren't keeping ppl alive or contributing to dps / utility. If you're the dps, you aren't doing enough damage or interrupts.

Its easy to blame others but the common denominator is you. If +15s, 1 wipe doesn't mean a failed key, but 2 wipes will with average groups going at the average pace. Figure out what you can do better. Rotate cds.

If you dont like the timer that's fine. Make that clear up front. Dont cry on the forums for its removal. Cry on the forums or a separate mode for you if you really think there's enough players like you.

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You can’t tell if it will be miserable after 5 minutes. You can sometimes tell you probably won’t time it, but not timing is different from “miserable experience”.

When there's 2 full wipes before first boss of NW during the easiest trash, you can tell its gonna be a shitshow lol

[shise]

Instead of the silly Raider IO, an addon called leaver IO.
There.

[ellieg]

Instead of the silly Raider IO, an addon called leaver IO.
There.

What do you find silly about raider io?

[chiddie]

i'm not talking about wcl rankings... i am talking about details... if you are at 6k hps in a +12... then the group is taking too much damage... and if the healer can't outheal all the damage you're taking... then the blame is on you for taking so much damage... most people in lower keys are getting hard carried by the healer because they're taking way too much avoidable damage... if they had a healer on their own skill level then they wouldn't make it through the dungeon... on my worst run so far this season i've had someone take 800k failure damage according to the eh addon... my hps that run was 6.5k in a +12... that guy had the audacity to flame me for him dying... rest of the group was at 20-50k damage... if he hadn't been the tank he would have died far more times from that amount of avoidable damage taken...

i have since then just started to leave groups where the damage taken from avoidable sources is that high... i'm not sticking around with those people...

I’m a healer too in the 13-14 bracket and when I see that my hps is constantly above 3.5k I can immediately tell that something is going wrong and we won’t time the key. Prediction is usually correct 9 times on 10 (11 on 10 if paired with average 3.5k dps from dps).

We can cover mistakes only up to a certain point, if ppl go hero-nearzero in 2 seconds constantly they cannot pretend to be always brought nearzero to hero in other 2 seconds, every pull, 5 times a pull.

This is specially bad with stacking weekly affixes. “Hey I only had 50 stacks of necrotic why didn’t you heal?”. Go figure.

[ellieg]

the thing i find silly about it is that it doesn't tell about peoples actual performance... when doing my weekly keys on alts i run into people who have like 1.3-1.4k rio who are doing less dps than my 180 rogue... in 210+ gear...

True but not sure how it could track that. I like that I can look at their profile to see what runs were done, how many were timed, the level, the ilvl of everyone in group, the affixes, and all of that. A lot of useful information in there

[Caerrona]

I’m a healer too in the 13-14 bracket and when I see that my hps is constantly above 3.5k I can immediately tell that something is going wrong and we won’t time the key. Prediction is usually correct 9 times on 10 (11 on 10 if paired with average 3.5k dps from dps).

We can cover mistakes only up to a certain point, if ppl go hero-nearzero in 2 seconds constantly they cannot pretend to be always brought nearzero to hero in other 2 seconds, every pull, 5 times a pull.

This is specially bad with stacking weekly affixes. “Hey I only had 50 stacks of necrotic why didn’t you heal?”. Go figure.

Yup, can agree with this. My hps is usually higher in 14s with randoms then 22s-23s with the group of friends i run with.

Randoms in lfg are the actual worst players. Get friends, stress goes down and keys go up. Ez

[AwkwardSquirtle]

yeah - "you did it" - players who are in what ? top 1% of wow players.

now you extrapolate your resoults on general playerbase ?

thats like me saying that you shoudl bench press 120 kg in series without breaking a sweat because i and plenty other people around world have no problem to do so .

this is what i hate about wow forums - everyone treats anyone who is even remotely less skilled then they as absolute trash - while those who are above them as "lol-nolifers lol get life " .

According to Data for Azeroth, it's about 10% have KSM.

[erifwodahs]

Really hopeless runs are not that many. But M+ is all about the timer so people leave at first wipe because they feel if they don’t beat it it’s not worth finish the dungeon. It’s not true because in the end you still have loot, anima and valor but it’s clearly just not enough.

Timer is a pressure point, but certainly not a root cause.

You can look into M+ as:
Timing is too rewarding: Fast clear, more items, key upgrade, rio score and KSM progress
Not timing is under rewarding: key downgrade, no TF means lower ilvl, no score in most cases and slow clear.

I do not advocate changing rewards tho, besides adding something for high end. It's just that it's hard to do something about it and not cuck other content up. Any sort of arena rating system would essentially kill pugging really hard and invite even more toxicity. It would be really nice for organized m+ groups tho.

[ellieg]

According to Data for Azeroth, it's about 10% have KSM.

Is that 10% of all accounts, or 10% of players that do m+? Cause if its all accounts, then actual % of players that "do" m+ would be way higher right lol. Let's say 1/3 of players regularly do m+, that would mean 30% of players that do m+ get ksm. Higher than I thought tbh