20 man mythic recruitment killing my guild...what about you?

[Niwes]

I don't know what the solution could be, but recruiting 20+ people for core and bench is starting to look like an impossible task at this very moment. I would even speculate it's easier to recruit 40 people in classic than it is to recruit 20 people for mythic in retail at the moment, and that's quite ridiculous.

My solution proposal would be obvious, reduce the number of people required for mythic content. 15? 10? again, this is the only thing I can really think of, as making mythic content scale-like LFR, normal, and heroic does would just be a balancing nightmare.

We are on a "full" pop server, US Thrall with plenty of people. The problem is related to not enough talent being out there to fill the roles. Is the content too difficult for the average player? is Raider.IO part of the problem? again, I don't know what the solution could possibly be, but there's definitely something going on with recruitment that is making it really hard to make a consistent roster.

prepare for TBC classic

retail is in no way dead. but to me it seems the target audience of retail is far far away from the classical „wow raiders“. what i wanna say: the game (retail) seems to me like its goal is to attract more casual gamers, by Covenants and „systems“ and to attract hobby pseudo guilds, a form of a heavy loose coupled grp/ppls, doing a bit stuff together, not much more coupled than a PUG grp, meeting once a week for a few activities here and there. in my exp the „real“ guild and the „real“ raider community got very very rare. wether i say there arent any, nor i mean this in some „hardcore player“ sense. to me it just seems like „modern wow“ distracted many players of a specific type (and exactly this type is interessted in mythic raiding) while it attracted another type of gamers. you may call the distracted ppl „oldschool“ if you wish.

so, maybe, a crowd that is more interessted in stuff like mythic raiding or strong guild communities or social aspects in a MMORPG etc. is maybe easier to find on something like TBC classic, than in „modern“ wow.

but maybe thats just me and my experience. i wasnt on wowprogress etc. to have a look at the number of mythic raiders and if it decreased heavily in comparrison to lets say WoD or so. its just how retail feels to me nowadays. but maybe thats just me.

[Stormbreed]

I don't know what the solution could be, but recruiting 20+ people for core and bench is starting to look like an impossible task at this very moment. I would even speculate it's easier to recruit 40 people in classic than it is to recruit 20 people for mythic in retail at the moment, and that's quite ridiculous.

My solution proposal would be obvious, reduce the number of people required for mythic content. 15? 10? again, this is the only thing I can really think of, as making mythic content scale-like LFR, normal, and heroic does would just be a balancing nightmare.

We are on a "full" pop server, US Thrall with plenty of people. The problem is related to not enough talent being out there to fill the roles. Is the content too difficult for the average player? is Raider.IO part of the problem? again, I don't know what the solution could possibly be, but there's definitely something going on with recruitment that is making it really hard to make a consistent roster.

My guild has the same problem, we are on Mythic Sludgefist.

This is the hardest tier WoW has ever created and it really punished people on a few fights that lasted 10 minutes only to wipe to 1 persons mistake. Harder to carry, we have 4-5 dps who always grey parse, and we can't bring the boss down in time. I'm the best healer in the world, and I just can't keep these guys alive.

Hopefully next tier will be hard fights at first that weekly get nerfed to keep player interaction up.

- - - Updated - - -

It wasn't a problem lol. The problem was 25 man, the groups doing 25 man heroic raiding were significantly fewer than the groups doing 10 man heroic. This is why you always see people wanting 10 man back and not wanting 25 man back. 10 man was significantly more enjoyable for the majority of the raiding playerbase. So how does Blizzard fix that issue? You decrease 25 mans requirement and go back to only 1 raid size for the hardest content. This forced players who wanted to remain raiding in 10 man guilds to either pull other 10 man groups into their guilds or to find new guilds to be a part of. This was a business strategy for profit, not a business strategy to keep consumers happy.

We also have pretty solid evidence that this was not a well received change overall with how Mythic engagement(since implementation in WoD) has been and has remained significantly less active than Heroic raiding ever was.

This,

10-Man is everything most people want out of WoW, perhaps other than the top 1% who also want use WoW as a platform for views on Twitch. 10-Mans allow you to get a group of friends and play at your own pace, you don't even need set raid days.

My guild, Night Lords, was a NA top 10 guild in 10-mans, but when it was changed we couldn't adapt with it. We don't like other people, and with bigger guilds and more spots to fill other guilds try harder to snipe your players. Its a bad design and something I'll have to talk to them about soon.

[Mightytasty]

I mean, i'm not trying to tell people how to play the game. I'm just saying it really feels like being able to gear via M+ and be overgeared in raids (ie: nothing that will drop in the raid will be an upgrade, hence people don't want to do it) is really killing the raiding scene in WoW this expansion.

People used to cry at blizzard with outrage of all they were expected to do outside of the raid in order to be fully prepared for raids, but M+ is the ultimate example of this and people just don't seem to care anymore that M+ is a huge time sink requirement to get into raids. I guess it's because they are getting the gear from it, making raid pointless, which essentially proves my point.

This has been my experience as well. Clearing 10!!! Mythic + to maximize your vault takes at least 3x longer than clearing 9 Nathria bosses. I'm personally not a fan of the blending of Mythic + and Raid gear, and prefer if they carried separate stats, however I think a good compromise would be to cut the Mythic + vault requirement in half.

[Arainie]

It would be huge difference because of multiple reasons, first the workload of management and HR is gonna get cut proportionally to raid size. Second social issues, at no singular point in time I had more than 10 people that were (at the same time) close when it comes to skill and I was comfortable raiding with, let alone in same guild. 20? Maybe if we count all the guilds over a course of 8 years. Raiding with 20 people mean raiding with people you don't talk to, don't play with or maybe even don't like at all. Third, nobody should care about fotm stacking, its not a competitive game by design, you are not having same chances simply because of RNG and there has been always cases of one classes being better than others. Again, not a problem.

And making 10 man doesn't limit encounter design, imagination (or lack of) does.

What a strange take. Ofcourse it's harder to design an encounter when the class/spec diversity and player number is lower. Imagination has nothing to do with it, you simply have fewer choices. You can always put two players on a one man job, but you can never have one person be at two places at once.

To ignore the FOTM problem is just ignorant. Monkey see monkey do is literally what the whole WoW meta is about. Whether you or I want to close our eyes and pretend that the problem isn't there doesn't make it go away.

The fact that you enjoy 10 player raiding more doesn't invalidate the issues it has, just like 20+ player raiding has other management and HR related issues.

[kaminaris]

What a strange take. Ofcourse it's harder to design an encounter when the class/spec diversity and player number is lower. Imagination has nothing to do with it, you simply have fewer choices. You can always put two players on a one man job, but you can never have one person be at two places at once.

To ignore the FOTM problem is just ignorant. Monkey see monkey do is literally what the whole WoW meta is about. Whether you or I want to close our eyes and pretend that the problem isn't there doesn't make it go away.

The fact that you enjoy 10 player raiding more doesn't invalidate the issues it has, just like 20+ player raiding has other management and HR related issues.

It really isn't. Making dps checks doesn't make "diverse, fun or original" encounter designs. Same goes for soak this shit with X players or split damage between Y players.

FOTM or meta nonsense is great example how to ruin a game by trying to design everything around it.
Those are absolutely non-existant issuses. As there will always be better classes and everyone who is not stacking multiple OP classes is basically "gimping themselves". Which is even more prominent in 20 man than in 10 man.

10 isnt perfect but none of those things you said is valid and 20 mans have way more issues anyways.

[Zyky]

Raids you are rewarded by completing them so you always get the gear regardless so raiders dont really care about gear as thats easy to aquire. The main rewards are title from last boss along with CE, and if a mount drops from that boss.

10 mans were easier so more ppl had access to them, raids should be challenging and they just cant be balanced properly if there are multiple versions of the same difficulty, 10 man raiding is not real raiding.

If you just create multiple versions of the same difficulty it just devalues the content and forces teams to do whichever is easier.

Nobody gives a rats ass about the titles... LMAO WHAT? If you look at any Mythic Raid team clearing the raid, almost nobody uses the current title and the title is obsolete the second the next raid comes out regardless because you can just plow through the raid with ease.

Cutting Edge means nothing and awards nothing, coming from somebody who has earned 16 Cutting Edges. Nobody looks through your achievements and is like "oh cool this person got Cutting Edge".

Players ONLY care about gear, because gear enables them to do more in the game, more gear = higher parses, more gear = easier time pushing Gladiator, more gear = quicker everything.

You must be actually delusional if you think a title and "Cutting Edge" is reward enough lmao.

[Doffen]

Nobody gives a rats ass about the titles... LMAO WHAT? If you look at any Mythic Raid team clearing the raid, almost nobody uses the current title and the title is obsolete the second the next raid comes out regardless because you can just plow through the raid with ease.

Cutting Edge means nothing and awards nothing, coming from somebody who has earned 16 Cutting Edges. Nobody looks through your achievements and is like "oh cool this person got Cutting Edge".

Players ONLY care about gear, because gear enables them to do more in the game, more gear = higher parses, more gear = easier time pushing Gladiator, more gear = quicker everything.

You must be actually delusional if you think a title and "Cutting Edge" is reward enough lmao.

Huh? If you got 16 CEs I would say good job to you. It is not as esteemed as clearing the harder raids "back in dah dei" but earning cutting edge is cool, 16 of them, very nice Zyky. If I was into this I would do it for the prestige, but we are all different. I am very happy when I get AotC. It feels nice when the little guild with 90% veterans manage to get all those, none of us care about mythic raiding, not to mention we are like 15 raiders, but I think people, like you, with so many Cutting Edges are doing a great effort and should get recognition for that. Gear is important to progress, but for many it is just a means to an end!

Beats those who buys CEs or get boosted through being social in a guild then claim to be a CE raider lmao.

[Zyky]

Huh? If you got 16 CEs I would say good job to you. It is not as esteemed as clearing the harder raids "back in dah dei" but earning cutting edge is cool, 16 of them, very nice Zyky. If I was into this I would do it for the prestige, but we are all different. I am very happy when I get AotC. It feels nice when the little guild with 90% veterans manage to get all those, none of us care about mythic raiding, not to mention we are like 15 raiders, but I think people, like you, with so many Cutting Edges are doing a great effort and should get recognition for that. Gear is important to progress, but for many it is just a means to an end!

Beats those who buys CEs or get boosted through being social in a guild then claim to be a CE raider lmao.

There's very little recognition because Cutting Edge just doesn't matter. There's nothing special tied to it, it's a Feat of Strength and most people don't sift through achievements anymore, even if you're guild hunting. Parse culture is the current mentality of the game when it comes to any top end play, you could have 0 Cutting Edges but if you average legendary percentiles you can get in any guild without even trying. I'm just being a realist here, yea woo I have a lot of Cutting Edges, but they literally mean nothing in the game today and they never granted me anything special for having them. Like most top end raiders, I like tangible rewards that actually impact my gameplay, the only thing that does that is gear. Mounts used to be great...but they've been reskinning old mounts for Mythic rewards and that's extremely disappointing for the amount of effort and time it takes to clear a Mythic raid.

[Garybear]

I don't know what the solution could be, but recruiting 20+ people for core and bench is starting to look like an impossible task at this very moment. I would even speculate it's easier to recruit 40 people in classic than it is to recruit 20 people for mythic in retail at the moment, and that's quite ridiculous.

My solution proposal would be obvious, reduce the number of people required for mythic content. 15? 10? again, this is the only thing I can really think of, as making mythic content scale-like LFR, normal, and heroic does would just be a balancing nightmare.

We are on a "full" pop server, US Thrall with plenty of people. The problem is related to not enough talent being out there to fill the roles. Is the content too difficult for the average player? is Raider.IO part of the problem? again, I don't know what the solution could possibly be, but there's definitely something going on with recruitment that is making it really hard to make a consistent roster.

Bro M+ 10 is too hard for the average player. Hardly anyone cares to mythic raid in this game, it isn't fun and isn't worth the time invested.

[Elbob]

One of the major issues with 10man versions of raid encounters and why i dont expect a return to it any time soon is the impact of having the "right" classes from a fight to fight basis. When blizzard designs a fight for 20man Mythic its very easy to expect a wide variance of specs because the fast majority of mythic guilds aren't going to have the option to bring 8 warlocks to a fight. When you swap over a fight to 10 man the dps swing of things like burn phases or add hp pools quickly become either trivial or impossible feeling depending on your comp.

Imagine doing mythic Sire(with 10 people) but you only have 2 ranged dps and neither of them are warlocks to drop portals for your melee. The corner adds would be a nightmare made even worse if you had tanks/melee with limited ability to traverse the gaps or you would have to trivialize the hp of the adds to oblivion so 2 ranged dps could manage them which in turn would make the fight an absolute joke for the raid with 4 ranged and atleast 1 warlock. Even better splitting the raid in p3 into 2 5 man grps might not even work if you are melee heavy and use a holy pally. So the entire fight(which is an pretty darn great fight atm) would have to be redesigned for 10man raid comps.

These issues were incredibly common back when 10 and 25 versions of raids existed. As some one that raided heroic of both in cata and mop in 2 different guilds. [Most] fights were significantly easier on the 10 man version even when my 10 man guild had worse players than the 25man roster i played with. Heroic Rag took ~1/3rd the pulls on 10 man compared to 25m. Lei Shen was a joke on 10 as well. Now of course some fights were worse on 10 and people will quickly jump to those examples(like blackfuse) but those fights were much more the exception than the rule(imo).

[Stormbreed]

One of the major issues with 10man versions of raid encounters and why i dont expect a return to it any time soon is the impact of having the "right" classes from a fight to fight basis. When blizzard designs a fight for 20man Mythic its very easy to expect a wide variance of specs because the fast majority of mythic guilds aren't going to have the option to bring 8 warlocks to a fight. When you swap over a fight to 10 man the dps swing of things like burn phases or add hp pools quickly become either trivial or impossible feeling depending on your comp.

Imagine doing mythic Sire(with 10 people) but you only have 2 ranged dps and neither of them are warlocks to drop portals for your melee. The corner adds would be a nightmare made even worse if you had tanks/melee with limited ability to traverse the gaps or you would have to trivialize the hp of the adds to oblivion so 2 ranged dps could manage them which in turn would make the fight an absolute joke for the raid with 4 ranged and atleast 1 warlock. Even better splitting the raid in p3 into 2 5 man grps might not even work if you are melee heavy and use a holy pally. So the entire fight(which is an pretty darn great fight atm) would have to be redesigned for 10man raid comps.

These issues were incredibly common back when 10 and 25 versions of raids existed. As some one that raided heroic of both in cata and mop in 2 different guilds. [Most] fights were significantly easier on the 10 man version even when my 10 man guild had worse players than the 25man roster i played with. Heroic Rag took ~1/3rd the pulls on 10 man compared to 25m. Lei Shen was a joke on 10 as well. Now of course some fights were worse on 10 and people will quickly jump to those examples(like blackfuse) but those fights were much more the exception than the rule(imo).

Is easier to design fights with those aspects in mind actually.

I.E ---- For your sire thing, there would just be portals in the room automatically. More players makes things harder to account for, more specs makes it worse.

10 Man raiding was the best raiding the game had, they got rid of it because they knew it wasn't "large" enough for WoW....

Bring it back.

[HolyCowBro]

Is easier to design fights with those aspects in mind actually.

I.E ---- For your sire thing, there would just be portals in the room automatically. More players makes things harder to account for, more specs makes it worse.

10 Man raiding was the best raiding the game had, they got rid of it because they knew it wasn't "large" enough for WoW....

Bring it back.

I like how his comparison is to raids that haven't had 10 man raiding in mind at all, it's like comparing apples to oranges. The raid just isn't *made* for the difficulty and mechanics on 10 man difficulty. The same can be said for a lot of the fights actually, so his argument is quite invalid. 10 man should be brought back, but that's just my opinion with how the market is currently, and plus I have a lot of better memories with 10 man than any other of the formats.



There's still plenty of room for innovation with 10 man mechanics and

[TEHPALLYTANK]

If I read this "individual responsibility is too low in 20m mythic", one more time I will probably lose my mind.

I really wonder if any of the people who say this have even seen one raid past the first few bosses in the last 4-6 years.
Personal responsibility is insanely high, most fights are designed in a way that every player has to play most mechanics and failing to do so usually results in a wipe (either because of some raid wide damage or because its too much dmg/healing missing now).

There are surely a lot of things you can complain about in mythic raiding, but complaining about not enough personal responsibility is insane.

It isn't that it necessarily that personal responsibility is diminished(though it still can be for some fights), it is the fact that the raid is twice as large that makes it feel diminished. It is an issue of perception that comes from the simple fact that being one person out of 20 feels less significant than being one person out of 10. Individual responsibility was significantly diminished in 25man raiding back when raiding was split into 10man and 25man lockouts, which is what I was alluding to since I raided in the latter half of TBC all the way through to mid-Legion.

20man Mythic brought back the feelings I hated from 25man Heroic, and the logistical problems that I hated from 25man.

It is more an issue of perception, and literally nothing you can say will change my perception that being 10% of a raid team feels more significant than being 5% of a raid team. If I feel half as valuable then I'm going to have significantly less emotional investment in the entire activity, which includes socializing. The 20man format creates a social environment that I can't enjoy, which is why I won't be satisfied with the state of raiding until they add 10man Mythic to fill the void they created when they destroyed 10man Heroic.

[Elbob]

Is easier to design fights with those aspects in mind actually.

I.E ---- For your sire thing, there would just be portals in the room automatically. More players makes things harder to account for, more specs makes it worse.

10 Man raiding was the best raiding the game had, they got rid of it because they knew it wasn't "large" enough for WoW....

Bring it back.

You probably don't know mythic sire very well the adds are designed to be melee or ranged unfriendly to promote splitting your raid to handle each of their unique mechanics and you completely neglected the main crux of my point that that having "optimal" comps creates ENORMOUS swings of difficulty if you have/don't have the right classes. Fights would have to be made easier which (imo) doesnt make raiding better.

edit: and i think there was a blue post with another reason why they got rid of 10 about when 10 man guilds died the players were more likely to quit the game but if a 25man guild died the players usually found other guilds to play with. So it was partly player retention. It mighta been a QA or interview after a blizzcon too. Ill see if i can find it.

[Zyky]

edit: and i think there was a blue post with another reason why they got rid of 10 about when 10 man guilds died the players were more likely to quit the game but if a 25man guild died the players usually found other guilds to play with. So it was partly player retention. It mighta been a QA or interview after a blizzcon too. Ill see if i can find it.

Even if they did say that statement, the idea behind it is absurd. A player is going to quit despite which difficulty they're playing on, it's about if the player enjoys raiding or not, not if they did 10 or 25. I highly doubt they had ANY data that could prove that statement true and they just said it to make an argument on the removal of 10 man.

[kenn9530]

Nobody gives a rats ass about the titles... LMAO WHAT? If you look at any Mythic Raid team clearing the raid, almost nobody uses the current title and the title is obsolete the second the next raid comes out regardless because you can just plow through the raid with ease.

Cutting Edge means nothing and awards nothing, coming from somebody who has earned 16 Cutting Edges. Nobody looks through your achievements and is like "oh cool this person got Cutting Edge".

Players ONLY care about gear, because gear enables them to do more in the game, more gear = higher parses, more gear = easier time pushing Gladiator, more gear = quicker everything.

You must be actually delusional if you think a title and "Cutting Edge" is reward enough lmao.

By the time they have cleared the content most players already have the gear so its irrelevant, clearing the content is the reward not the gear because gear is the easiest thing to get, parses dont really matter either because the top ones are just using cheese tactics to boost the numbers so they are irrelevant also, raid gear is not really going to help you in PvP as most PvE gear doesnt have vers on it.

The reward for doing raids is clearing the content while its current, its not gear as players already have all the gear they could ever need.

Is easier to design fights with those aspects in mind actually.

I.E ---- For your sire thing, there would just be portals in the room automatically. More players makes things harder to account for, more specs makes it worse.

10 Man raiding was the best raiding the game had, they got rid of it because they knew it wasn't "large" enough for WoW....

Bring it back.

10 man raids is not raiding, its just a dumbed down version for players who are not good enough for the larger raids.

[Zyky]

By the time they have cleared the content most players already have the gear so its irrelevant, clearing the content is the reward not the gear because gear is the easiest thing to get, parses dont really matter either because the top ones are just using cheese tactics to boost the numbers so they are irrelevant also, raid gear is not really going to help you in PvP as most PvE gear doesnt have vers on it.

The reward for doing raids is clearing the content while its current, its not gear as players already have all the gear they could ever need.

You're clearly not going to agree with the facts lol. Nobody has the gear from Denathrius prior to killing him. He awards higher item level then available from any other form of content other than Gladiator level arena. GEAR IS THE REWARD literally nobody cares about killing the boss and nobody would be raiding if there wasn't gear from the content.

[ShaanuJaanu]

I don't know what the solution could be, but recruiting 20+ people for core and bench is starting to look like an impossible task at this very moment. I would even speculate it's easier to recruit 40 people in classic than it is to recruit 20 people for mythic in retail at the moment, and that's quite ridiculous.

My solution proposal would be obvious, reduce the number of people required for mythic content. 15? 10? again, this is the only thing I can really think of, as making mythic content scale-like LFR, normal, and heroic does would just be a balancing nightmare.

We are on a "full" pop server, US Thrall with plenty of people. The problem is related to not enough talent being out there to fill the roles. Is the content too difficult for the average player? is Raider.IO part of the problem? again, I don't know what the solution could possibly be, but there's definitely something going on with recruitment that is making it really hard to make a consistent roster.

I mean, to do raids in classic you just need a warm body, thats not the same for retail mythics. THere are so many baddies that are 1-3/10 bosses that can't crack other bosses.

Reducing number required won't change anything, this is what people said when going from 40-25..then 25 to 20. All it does is split 20 man guilds into 2x15 or 10 man grps and then people will be looking to recruit to fill spots in those 2 guilds instead of one.

IF you are a mid tier mythic guild who hasnt killed M denathrius yet, expect to have recruitment issues. There are lot of guilds who got the wrong idea getting CE in Nyalotha with corruption/prolonged tier who simply DONT have the skilll to tackle CE otherwise. Lucky this tier is long as this, normally we would be in 2nd tier/going into it in the next couple of weeks.

- - - Updated - - -

By the time they have cleared the content most players already have the gear so its irrelevant, clearing the content is the reward not the gear because gear is the easiest thing to get, parses dont really matter either because the top ones are just using cheese tactics to boost the numbers so they are irrelevant also, raid gear is not really going to help you in PvP as most PvE gear doesnt have vers on it.

The reward for doing raids is clearing the content while its current, its not gear as players already have all the gear they could ever need.



10 man raids is not raiding, its just a dumbed down version for players who are not good enough for the larger raids.

You have 0 idea what you are talking about, gear is what drives mythic raids, not titles, not vanity garbage. Definatley not "I DID THIS RAID" LMAO.

[Nalam the Venom]

Nope you have it backwards, if your mentality is just about gear then your just going to be dissapointed as once your BiS then you have completed your goal, the true raider goal is getting cutting edge and if the boss has a mount to farm that until the whole raid has it.

Let’s just agree to disagree.

Killing bosses and getting achivements is not something important or special.

[Gorsameth]

There's very little recognition because Cutting Edge just doesn't matter. There's nothing special tied to it, it's a Feat of Strength and most people don't sift through achievements anymore, even if you're guild hunting. Parse culture is the current mentality of the game when it comes to any top end play, you could have 0 Cutting Edges but if you average legendary percentiles you can get in any guild without even trying. I'm just being a realist here, yea woo I have a lot of Cutting Edges, but they literally mean nothing in the game today and they never granted me anything special for having them. Like most top end raiders, I like tangible rewards that actually impact my gameplay, the only thing that does that is gear. Mounts used to be great...but they've been reskinning old mounts for Mythic rewards and that's extremely disappointing for the amount of effort and time it takes to clear a Mythic raid.

No shit, if your constantly in the top5% of players you can find good guilds... what a revelation.
For the other 95% of Mythic raiders, Cutting Edge is something they can show off to show they likely have some clue how to play the game.

- - - Updated - - -

Let’s just agree to disagree.

Killing bosses and getting achivements is not something important or special.

different people raid for different goals.