20 man mythic recruitment killing my guild...what about you?

[Razion]

Recruitment hurt my guild for a while in Cata, we lost members and couldn't replace them but we still managed to find enough to keep raiding throughout the entire expac. Then in Mists, it finally started to actually halt progression. We had our first tier halting due to recruitment in ToT - we couldn't ignore it this time. Our guild came back in WoD, emphasizing it would try to be less hard-core to bring in a wider array of players and try to build them up. WoD ended up experiencing the largest player drought it had ever experienced - we weren't losing just a one or two people in Cata here, or two to five people in Mists there, now we were losing upwards of 80% of the entire guild in WoD, and replacements came in slower than ever before across the entire game and it seemed like everyone else was experiencing similar drops across the community. The guild tried again in Legion, doing a merger this time hoping that the resulting merger would stem the flow of lost recruitment long enough to keep the guild raiding throughout the expansion again. This lasted maybe up to and through Nighthold, and recruitment again became an issue - we again were losing people faster than we could train them. For BFA the guild jumped factions trying to find better recruitment opportunities, but I haven't heard from them since.

This was a good guild, filled with good people, just trying to raid progression. The leadership was fair and good, the people were kind and supportive. I have nothing but respect for the people I raided with in this guild, but every expansion since I joined recruitment at the high-end was a problem. From expansion to expansion. While some expansions were so much worse than others as with WoD, and while others like Cata were easier than any other, I would be lying if I said I didn't notice a trend -- high-end competitive raiding just seemed to not have any recruiting power after Wrath. There just didn't seem to be enough people to go around to all the guilds ever since. It felt like in Wrath there were so many people you had to keep them back with cattle-prods and you were always overflowing with enough people to bring in to raiding teams. I can't say definitively what caused this entire recruitment problem to happen and persist since Cataclysm, but man has it been noticeable since Wrath. I've no doubt people have experienced their share of recruitment woes in Vanilla and TBC as well, but it felt like you at least had a chance back then. Nowadays recruitment feels more hopeless.

[Kralljin]

I never understood why Mythic raiding is so restrictive. Can someone tell me why Blizzard can't just:

1) Get rid of faction-specific "Hall of Fame". Open cross-realm mythic after World 100 is complete, or do it from the start because who cares.
2) Get rid of lockouts. (What's the point? Personal loot exists)

Maintaining a stable roster would become a huge issue.

Your guild wipes on Boss X too many times?
Fuck it, i'll just join another guild, not like i get less Loot because PL exists.

Said guild suddenly has a huge member turnover and thus will never succeed in killing any difficult boss because they always have X different people every week and need to relearn the fight.

I get that people always love to see the upsides of ultimate accessability, but it also has downsides because it never forces players to commit to anything, yet that commitment is necessary to form a successful team or guild.

[Soikona]

Then you are getting hardcarried by your guild, which is fair enough.

Maybe you just need to “gt gud” if you think there is a lot of personal responsibility. Sounds more like you are the one struggling with difficulty, indicating you are being carried hard, not me (considering I don’t think there is from a DPS perspective). There is more personal responsibility in keys, than M raids.

[kingpinuk880]

Where's the incentive to mythic raid nowadays? I've done it before but really cant myself going back. A lot of players like to chill and just enjoy the raid. Mythic is too hard and stressful for the average player i would guess, it was for me anyway. So many mechanics to remember and the requirement for extra addons etc puts people off. To top it all off, you cant even show off your cool gear that says 'im an amazing bad ass player' because everyone transmogs anyway. The only reward it seems is personal pride...and that's just not enough to lure people in. The effort v reward for mythic is woefully out of balance

[Accendor]

Maybe you just need to “gt gud” if you think there is a lot of personal responsibility. Sounds more like you are the one struggling with difficulty, indicating you are being carried hard, not me (considering I don’t think there is from a DPS perspective). There is more personal responsibility in keys, than M raids.

Look, if you tell me there is no personal responsibilities in fights like e.g. Artificer, Inerva or SLG then I can only assume that you die at the start of the fight because thats the only way it can be explained that a fail of you does not lead to a wipe.
I wanted to also take Sludgefist as an example, but I think as a melee there really is not much you have to do besides whacking the boss and breaking your chains is even easier than as a rangee, because all melees are clumbed together either way.

My point is: if your guild apparently makes sure that you never have to put down a portal, carry an egg on Artificer, do the explosion dance on council, never put down eruptions and blades and never collect blood orbs on SLG, you are just standing still on hungering destroyer with consume and even with the thing you normally need to carry out of the group, then I have to assume you are being hardcarried.
There are 2 possibilities here: Your guild makes sure you specifically can ignore all mechanics or we two have a different diffinition of ehat personal responsibility means.
From OPs context I assumed it means to carry your weight in terms or dps and hps as well as play and not fail all relevant mechanics.
Those mechanics are usually build in a way that makes it required for everyone to knoe what to do. Exceptiond here are e.g. the blood lantern on shriekwing, which only one specific player has to do.

I really did not want to offend you, but you literally told me that you are not playing any mechanic that would wipe the raid if you failed, or did I simply misunderstand you?

[facefist]

10man>>>>>>>>20man

More personal responsibility, more emphasis on actual gameplay and less on garbage logistics. I don't care if people think more people feels more epic. Recruiting is terrible.


I'm sure you'll get the contrarians that come in and be like pffft just recruit harder or be better so people wanna join your guild loser because that's all people in this forum do. rofl

This is exactly why 5man > 10man

[Gaidax]

Maybe you just need to “gt gud” if you think there is a lot of personal responsibility. Sounds more like you are the one struggling with difficulty, indicating you are being carried hard, not me (considering I don’t think there is from a DPS perspective). There is more personal responsibility in keys, than M raids.

Me not responding to my specific assignment in P3 M.SLG or intermission before within about 5 seconds = immediate raid wipe. I am a first backup there for soaking at one of half a dozen possible locations, if I miss it - immediate wipe.

Sounds like quite a bit of personal responsibility there. And there are plenty other cases in CN where failure to respond to what you are assigned to do results in, at very least, dead raid members, like Huntsman's Sinseeker. And that guy is about as easy of a boss as it goes in CN.

[Xalvia]

Make mythic raiding actually rewarding. No, cutting edge and some gear you will replace within 2 days of the next tier is not interesting and hasn't been for some time now imo.

[Talon8669]

I don't know what the solution could be, but recruiting 20+ people for core and bench is starting to look like an impossible task at this very moment. I would even speculate it's easier to recruit 40 people in classic than it is to recruit 20 people for mythic in retail at the moment, and that's quite ridiculous.

My solution proposal would be obvious, reduce the number of people required for mythic content. 15? 10? again, this is the only thing I can really think of, as making mythic content scale-like LFR, normal, and heroic does would just be a balancing nightmare.

We are on a "full" pop server, US Thrall with plenty of people. The problem is related to not enough talent being out there to fill the roles. Is the content too difficult for the average player? is Raider.IO part of the problem? again, I don't know what the solution could possibly be, but there's definitely something going on with recruitment that is making it really hard to make a consistent roster.

I would recommend trying to partner with another guild or start making friends in another guild that is struggling as well so you have the option of grabbing some extra players when you need them. Before I switched guilds to my current the guild I was in we would often sub over to fill in as back ups or even get a spot each week if players were reliable. I unfortunately cannot raid currently with my guild due to IRL commitments so I pug when i can and otherwise have pretty much just focused on alts and PvP but I am in the same boat a lot of players are in where I have basically hit my upgrade gate and cannot progress further due to my schedule and I am only still rolling my account for my son to play and to keep farming soul ash each week and upgrade legos while we wait for 9.1 to kick off.

[kenn9530]

You're clearly not going to agree with the facts lol. Nobody has the gear from Denathrius prior to killing him. He awards higher item level then available from any other form of content other than Gladiator level arena. GEAR IS THE REWARD literally nobody cares about killing the boss and nobody would be raiding if there wasn't gear from the content.

So raiders only care about gear and dont care about clearing content, the only reason to even raid is to clear the content so stop talking BS, if your raiding gear is irrelevant as you get that easily, you only go after gear so you can make your preferred content easier, gear is not the reward because you can easily get gear and the last few bosses only drop slightly better items of which most relevant players would have obtained through PvP anyway.

Simple fact clearing content is the reward not gear.

You have 0 idea what you are talking about, gear is what drives mythic raids, not titles, not vanity garbage. Definatley not "I DID THIS RAID" LMAO.

Its obvious you have no idea what your talking about, gear is the easiest thing to get in WoW with a little effort, players dont care about what gear your wearing they prefer experience, most of the items in the raid are not even an upgrade.

Let’s just agree to disagree.

Killing bosses and getting achivements is not something important or special.

So what would you rather have a realm first achievement, famed slayer or gear that has to constantly change each patch, acheivements are killing bosses are what drives mythic raiders, gear is easy to get and only a means to making the content easier.

If gear is your only reward for playing then you have been playing the game wrong, when a bit of gear drops you need its nice but when you kill that boss you have been struggling to kill or your getting a limited title is the reward for raiding. If your not in the top 100 then your reward is clearing the content and getting CE.

[brinkber245]

Its obvious you have no idea what your talking about, gear is the easiest thing to get in WoW with a little effort, players dont care about what gear your wearing they prefer experience, most of the items in the raid are not even an upgrade.

I've read a lot of objectively false stuff on here before, but this takes the cake. What game are you playing

[kenn9530]

I've read a lot of objectively false stuff on here before, but this takes the cake. What game are you playing

Whats false gear is way too easy aquire, killing bosses are much more fun than getting a 0.6% upgrade, killing an end tier boss while is current is much more rewarding than a bit of gear that will just be vendored/disenchanted a short while into the next main patch.

Why do guilds keep clearing content each week when everyone has all the gear.

[Relapses]

10 m heroic was miles easier, much less to coordinate so dealing with less mechanics and more floor space, in MoP it was so easy to find groups you could easily PuG SoG and farm the mounts, overall 10 man raiding was easier and the raid was completed much faster than a 25 man, its also far easier to make sure you have 10 decent players who can do mechanics than 25 man as thats one of the main reasons for raids being hard.

10M Heroic Garrosh lasted longer than 25M Heroic Garrosh, you do know that right? The fight was so stupidly overtuned that Paragon famously one-healed it to get the DPS check. As a guy who both strongly supports the current 20M Mythic format and one who raided and got CE in both 25M and 10M Heroic guilds in Cata and MoP, it's just factually incorrect to make a blanket statement about 10M being easier. But it's clear you just want to interject an opinion that 10M was the inferior raid difficulty and use that as your reasoning for it not existing; that's fine, you do you. So while I agree with you that 10M Heroic should not come back under any circumstance the two of us fundamentally disagree on the reasons why.

[Soikona]

Look, if you tell me there is no personal responsibilities in fights like e.g. Artificer, Inerva or SLG then I can only assume that you die at the start of the fight because thats the only way it can be explained that a fail of you does not lead to a wipe.
I wanted to also take Sludgefist as an example, but I think as a melee there really is not much you have to do besides whacking the boss and breaking your chains is even easier than as a rangee, because all melees are clumbed together either way.

My point is: if your guild apparently makes sure that you never have to put down a portal, carry an egg on Artificer, do the explosion dance on council, never put down eruptions and blades and never collect blood orbs on SLG, you are just standing still on hungering destroyer with consume and even with the thing you normally need to carry out of the group, then I have to assume you are being hardcarried.
There are 2 possibilities here: Your guild makes sure you specifically can ignore all mechanics or we two have a different diffinition of ehat personal responsibility means.
From OPs context I assumed it means to carry your weight in terms or dps and hps as well as play and not fail all relevant mechanics.
Those mechanics are usually build in a way that makes it required for everyone to knoe what to do. Exceptiond here are e.g. the blood lantern on shriekwing, which only one specific player has to do.

I really did not want to offend you, but you literally told me that you are not playing any mechanic that would wipe the raid if you failed, or did I simply misunderstand you?

Please see what I originally wrote below.

I would disagree. Granted I am only 9/10 M, but as a DPS it just seems I am hitting a sponge until it breaks. I play a retri, but even my blessings are not in dire need cause there is always enough other utilities that makes mine not needed.

As you can see, not once did I “literally” tell you I didn’t play mechanics so please don’t put words where they don’t belong. I merely said I disagree with your statement that individual responsibility is too low (I have included your post that I replied to below for reference).

But again, I do disagree. I want more. I want to do mechanics that only a melee can do, I want mechanics that only a paladin can do, I want mechanics that are more than just soak this or dodge that (how can you call this individual responsibility, it’s the basics for the game). Fights like HM King in Mechagon. That’s something this tier, and previous tiers, are massively missing. Being a DPS should be more than just DPS and dodge/soak. It’s why I want to tank again but the current 20 man teams means there is a huge surplus of people that want to tank. Going from 10 man to 20 man and we still only have two tanks? That is why I am in favour of 10 man. Even now, with two DPS dead going into the 3rd phase we killed SLG M (shocker, not me since I am carried apparently), try getting away with that fight with 2 DPS dead if it were 10 man.

So I will rephrase what I said earlier. I find the raid simple. Lately blizzards idea of “difficult” is about mental exhaustion more so than the fights being mechanically difficult. You said I am being hard carried because I find them easy, but you are the one saying it is “insanely high”. If you are the one thinking’s it’s high, you are the one being carried, not me.

If I read this "individual responsibility is too low in 20m mythic", one more time I will probably lose my mind.

I really wonder if any of the people who say this have even seen one raid past the first few bosses in the last 4-6 years.
Personal responsibility is insanely high, most fights are designed in a way that every player has to play most mechanics and failing to do so usually results in a wipe (either because of some raid wide damage or because its too much dmg/healing missing now).

There are surely a lot of things you can complain about in mythic raiding, but complaining about not enough personal responsibility is insane.

[Relapses]

But again, I do disagree. I want more. I want to do mechanics that only a melee can do, I want mechanics that only a paladin can do, I want mechanics that are more than just soak this or dodge that (how can you call this individual responsibility, it’s the basics for the game). Fights like HM King in Mechagon. That’s something this tier, and previous tiers, are massively missing. Being a DPS should be more than just DPS and dodge/soak.

They've done this in the past and the feedback has been universally negative.

-> MCs on Blast Furnace

-> Tomb of SOAKgeras

-> G'huun's dependence on Warlocks

-> N'Zoth's heavy immunity requirement

I think there's a reason these kinds of mechanics are absent from CN... players generally don't like them.

[kenn9530]

10M Heroic Garrosh lasted longer than 25M Heroic Garrosh, you do know that right? The fight was so stupidly overtuned that Paragon famously one-healed it to get the DPS check. As a guy who both strongly supports the current 20M Mythic format and one who raided and got CE in both 25M and 10M Heroic guilds in Cata and MoP, it's just factually incorrect to make a blanket statement about 10M being easier. But it's clear you just want to interject an opinion that 10M was the inferior raid difficulty and use that as your reasoning for it not existing; that's fine, you do you. So while I agree with you that 10M Heroic should not come back under any circumstance the two of us fundamentally disagree on the reasons why.

There is a different between difficulty and a fight actually being balanced, until a fight is balanced properly you cant really judge it properly, 10 man once it was tuned better was far easier in SoO, i came in after a few raid tiers to MoP so did a fair amount of 10 man with friends then cleared everything else throught Open Raid finding groups. There are always a few fight in 10 man that will be harder but overall as a whole 10 man is easier.

[Elbob]

But again, I do disagree. I want more. I want to do mechanics that only a melee can do, I want mechanics that only a paladin can do, I want mechanics that are more than just soak this or dodge that (how can you call this individual responsibility, it’s the basics for the game). Fights like HM King in Mechagon. That’s something this tier, and previous tiers, are massively missing. Being a DPS should be more than just DPS and dodge/soak. It’s why I want to tank again but the current 20 man teams means there is a huge surplus of people that want to tank. Going from 10 man to 20 man and we still only have two tanks? That is why I am in favour of 10 man. Even now, with two DPS dead going into the 3rd phase we killed SLG M (shocker, not me since I am carried apparently), try getting away with that fight with 2 DPS dead if it were 10 man.

So I will rephrase what I said earlier. I find the raid simple. Lately blizzards idea of “difficult” is about mental exhaustion more so than the fights being mechanically difficult. You said I am being hard carried because I find them easy, but you are the one saying it is “insanely high”. If you are the one thinking’s it’s high, you are the one being carried, not me.

Interrupts that require a 15s cd are generally viewed as a melee mechanic. With the exception of shamans it would require additional players to handle the same kick rotations melee do.

Paladins have numerous paladin specific jobs this tier, bops can be game breaking on huntsman, council and SLG. Yes other classes have immunities but only you can share yours.

There are fights with mechanics as required as king mechagon that require communication or wipe. Like more fights then not actually, so i just dont understand your point at all. How is clicking lights in order more involved than soaking mechanics properly? Is counting 1-4 harder then standing on a flare at the right time? What about Inerva sins that pick 3 random people that must work together to put lines through all 4 orbs? I'd say that requires more communication than HM Mechagon. Tons of dps use utility on tons of fights... I'm starting to think you just don't know whats happening on these bosses. Wanting to raid tank again is a mistake if you want interaction. Raid tanking is at an all time low interaction wise since cata. We drag the bosses around on rails to most optimize the dps' ability to kill it. Tank mechanics are 99% just taunting back and forth.

Going back to 10 man is just going to reduce mechanic count, which makes it easier for the RL to call everything/everyone's jobs by name.
It will trivialize add hp because that same raid with 2 affliction warlocks and an outlaw rogue has to be able to break dmg absorbs on sunking same as the one with 2 moonkins and a hunter. Where in the 20m version blizz just assumes you have a bit of everything and will just manage the cds to pull it off.

As for killing M SLG with 2 dps dead in p3 yeah thats not hard at all when its the easiest phase and in translating it to 10 man it would be with 1 person dead. Made easier by the fact transition adds would have like 5 max hp and fall over just for looking at them and there would only be ~3 soaks(max) out at a time so you would never have to run far to get them.

I never found 10 man fights mechanically more challenging when i did them. Some times numerically they were if you didn't have the right classes for the job. But all of the mechanics got so watered down on 10 man they felt like a joke. Being the only person in an interrupt rotation requires much less thinking than a rotation that requires 3-5. Healing through tough debuffs is way easier when only 1-2 people get them vs communicating and triaging through 4-6 debuffs even if you have more healers to do it because if you all try to save the same 1-2 targets the rest die.

[Zoura]

I don't know what the solution could be, but recruiting 20+ people for core and bench is starting to look like an impossible task at this very moment. I would even speculate it's easier to recruit 40 people in classic than it is to recruit 20 people for mythic in retail at the moment, and that's quite ridiculous.

My solution proposal would be obvious, reduce the number of people required for mythic content. 15? 10? again, this is the only thing I can really think of, as making mythic content scale-like LFR, normal, and heroic does would just be a balancing nightmare.

We are on a "full" pop server, US Thrall with plenty of people. The problem is related to not enough talent being out there to fill the roles. Is the content too difficult for the average player? is Raider.IO part of the problem? again, I don't know what the solution could possibly be, but there's definitely something going on with recruitment that is making it really hard to make a consistent roster.

Cant compare mythic 20 with classic 40, totally different type of raiding. Difficulty wise it's HUGE

[kamuimac]

Interrupts that require a 15s cd are generally viewed as a melee mechanic. With the exception of shamans it would require additional players to handle the same kick rotations melee do.

Paladins have numerous paladin specific jobs this tier, bops can be game breaking on huntsman, council and SLG. Yes other classes have immunities but only you can share yours.

There are fights with mechanics as required as king mechagon that require communication or wipe. Like more fights then not actually, so i just dont understand your point at all. How is clicking lights in order more involved than soaking mechanics properly? Is counting 1-4 harder then standing on a flare at the right time? What about Inerva sins that pick 3 random people that must work together to put lines through all 4 orbs? I'd say that requires more communication than HM Mechagon. Tons of dps use utility on tons of fights... I'm starting to think you just don't know whats happening on these bosses. Wanting to raid tank again is a mistake if you want interaction. Raid tanking is at an all time low interaction wise since cata. We drag the bosses around on rails to most optimize the dps' ability to kill it. Tank mechanics are 99% just taunting back and forth.

Going back to 10 man is just going to reduce mechanic count, which makes it easier for the RL to call everything/everyone's jobs by name.
It will trivialize add hp because that same raid with 2 affliction warlocks and an outlaw rogue has to be able to break dmg absorbs on sunking same as the one with 2 moonkins and a hunter. Where in the 20m version blizz just assumes you have a bit of everything and will just manage the cds to pull it off.

As for killing M SLG with 2 dps dead in p3 yeah thats not hard at all when its the easiest phase and in translating it to 10 man it would be with 1 person dead. Made easier by the fact transition adds would have like 5 max hp and fall over just for looking at them and there would only be ~3 soaks(max) out at a time so you would never have to run far to get them.

I never found 10 man fights mechanically more challenging when i did them. Some times numerically they were if you didn't have the right classes for the job. But all of the mechanics got so watered down on 10 man they felt like a joke. Being the only person in an interrupt rotation requires much less thinking than a rotation that requires 3-5. Healing through tough debuffs is way easier when only 1-2 people get them vs communicating and triaging through 4-6 debuffs even if you have more healers to do it because if you all try to save the same 1-2 targets the rest die.

what you also have is record breaking sub looses - and one of the reasons is ridiculously overtuned content because blizzard for some reason blizz decided that its good business decision to cater to only 100-200k players who have nothing better to do then play 1 game over what will soon be nearly 20 years of their life.

there needs to be a point where blizz just admits - "you guys are just to good at game we cannot waste resources on your - gg you are that good - go play something else when you are done with cotent in 2 weeks"

[Mightytasty]

This is exactly why 5man > 10man

5 man Raiding would be dope. Take mythic + and remove the trash. Call it Boss Gauntlet mode