Would you play wow with cosmetic only gear?

[arkanon]

I would love that but it'll never happen. The mythic raiders would have a meltdown.

Interestingly enough, it seems to be the opposite end of the spectrum complaining the most.....

[McNeil]

Character growth is very important for me to enjoy the game. I don't really care about cosmetics all that much

[arkanon]

Character growth is very important for me to enjoy the game. I don't really care about cosmetics all that much

Agreed - as i have said to others i voted NO, but am interested to see just how many would continue to play without any gains.

[Bibarel]

What is the purpose of this change? You want to prove that players that perform poorly and blame it on lack of gear will still perform poorly even if there is no gear? Yes, they will. Cause they're bad players obviously. They will do poorly, have no way to compensate and nothing to blame it on and eventually will quit.

Really can't see this change for PVE. Gear does so much in this game, it's not just a reward. It is way to nerf content, a way to incentivise farming things you've already cleared. Imagine being stuck at +10 on week one knowing that there is no way to get further unless you improve significantly. I'd say a lot of people would rather quit than push themselves to get better for some mog set or mount #432. This will make Wow basically a game for hardcore/compeitive players and collectors, with the first ones boosting the latter ones.

Power progression does matter and cosmetics alone are not enough. SL has tons of cosmetics available, but so many people are upset that there is nothing to do as they've already got their 197 stuff, while all the mounts, pets and set recolors are not even considered content.

For PVP could work if done properly, although didn't Legion's templates get mixed response from the playerbase?

P.S. Looting epics is also fun.

[Tiwack]

It's essential to progression to have gear be a part of it. So not for PvE - On the other hand PvP is another story though. Maybe just pick your trinkets and go nuts? I'd be down for that.

[Swnem]

I mean... gw2 tried that, even gw1.

I don't hate it, but first of all you need to have a fun and deep combat system, second you need a bigger focus on story and third you need better content release pace.

The thing is, making vertical progression is easier and works.

[arkanon]

I mean... gw2 tried that, even gw1.

I don't hate it, but first of all you need to have a fun and deep combat system, second you need a bigger focus on story and third you need better content release pace.

The thing is, making vertical progression is easier and works.

I dont disagree, however, if it "works", why is there such a high volume of complaints and negativity towards it?

[Tronski]

With the first couple of pages chock full of various discussions around character power and the acquisition of gear, I thought it presented an interesting question:

Would you still play wow if ALL gear was cosmetic only, and there were no ways to increase your characters power?

I find this question interesting on its own, but find it especially interesting when there has been so much discussion around the "best" gear only being available to the "best" players, with more than one person claiming the ONLY difference between a mythic raider and a WQ farmer is "some addons and reading a guide"

From a pvp perspective we have seen multiple people claim they only get crushed in BGs because the other players are 226 geared characters, meaning they dont stand a chance.

Assuming under this system, Mythic raids and high ranked pvp still rewarded the most elaborate and "impressive" sets, would this bother you? It doesnt grant them any power over anyone after all.

I would have loved this with all my gaming heart, and it would have been so much more comfortable to experience content with different classes. And I can tell you how I know I would have loved it, because I can pinpoint times when my enjoyment of content was at an all time high, both for PvE and PvP.

For PVE it was doing challenge modes in MoP and WoD. Gear scaled down and you had access to this content on all of your alts almost as soon as they hit the required level - and save for some secondary stats and trinkets being totally bonkers and made things easier, there was no way to really overpower the content.
For PvP it was the templates that got introduced with WoD, and the general idea was that there shouldn't ever be more than a ~10% power difference between the best geared and the newbies. Seasoned players and gankers obviously hated this as it meant they couldn't global newbies anymore, and freshly dinged players could jump straight into, and actually enjoy, the PvP scene.

Both of these features also got scrapped the second Activision was in charge of Blizzard, because no power grind means less playing, and the sad reality is as you say: The one thing that keeps mythic raiders playing 10 hours a day to push their stats to the max is the belief that they are superior by being able to overpower higher tuned content. There's often additional abilities, but in reality it's the exact same fight that just demands higher power levels which in turn requires a lot more effort to achieve. The only actually skilled players this game has are those competing for world firsts and top 50 in Arena. And these guys would need 2 months of subscription a year if there were no power to be grinded.

[ReesePieces]

Interestingly enough, it seems to be the opposite end of the spectrum complaining the most.....

I think many of you don't understand the true intent of this post, and this response above shows what I mean.

The point of this post is not actually to suggest that gear progression should be removed from the game. The OP says they voted NO. The OP also knows that most players want gear progression.

The true intent is to chide more casual players who want access to BiS gear by putting up the straw man that the other option is ZERO gear progression.

[qwerty123456]

Oh really? I'll have to check it out just out of curiosity.

It's not entirely true. Gear has stats and levels its just that the difference between Ascended/Legendary gear and Exotic is pretty small and picking the right stats is more important than having Ascended gear. Like is someone was playing a build that didn't have any conditions but used Ascended and Legendaries that had + condition damage, duration, and crit damage they would get their assess handed to them pretty easily by a dude in Exotic or maybe even lower gear if he used the correct stats for his build.

You could easily play the whole game in the lvl 80 exotic boost set if you wanted to or some you buy off the ah or craft but actually crafting yourself some Ascended gear with the stats you need will give you a little boost.

[arkanon]

I think many of you don't understand the true intent of this post, and this response above shows what I mean.

The point of this post is not actually to suggest that gear progression should be removed from the game. The OP says they voted NO. The OP also knows that most players want gear progression.

The true intent is to chide more casual players who want access to BiS gear by putting up the straw man that the other option is ZERO gear progression.

Thank you for explaining to me OP's stance and intention. An interesting development, I AM op.....As i have said from the beginning, I simply wanted to see what percentage of players would continue to play, and if not, why not.

Another interesting note - CM were VERY popular, as was the MT - both rewarded ZERO player power. So there clearly is an appetite for cosmetic only rewards, and it is interesting to see a surprisingly high percentage of players would continue to play, even with zero power progression.

[ippollite]

I think many of you don't understand the true intent of this post, and this response above shows what I mean.

The point of this post is not actually to suggest that gear progression should be removed from the game. The OP says they voted NO. The OP also knows that most players want gear progression.

The true intent is to chide more casual players who want access to BiS gear by putting up the straw man that the other option is ZERO gear progression.

Oh no, totally understood it. But its kind of backfired a little, hasnt it? Because the two big reasons cited are: I like getting stronger and seeing more damage. And, as you increase in power, content gets nerfed indirectly.

So players voting no kinda just want a nice game where they can chill out, overpower content with gear and not actually deal with a skill based system which a flat cap on load out would provide.

Actually, im kinda curious OP, why DID you vote no? Do you feel it wouldnt be a challenge for you, or would it be too much of one? I mean, youve continually explained why gear 'progressing' doesnt mean the challenge wont also progress (you hit harder, they hit harder), so what is it (thats not related to power progression) tying you to this system? You'd QUIT the game over this, so you must have a strong opinion on it, after all.

[Echocho]

Interestingly enough, it seems to be the opposite end of the spectrum complaining the most.....

Interestingly enough, that's not actually true. The only group of players that care about the gear they get but mostly what gear those below them get are the players at the top.

- - - Updated - - -

I think many of you don't understand the true intent of this post, and this response above shows what I mean.

The point of this post is not actually to suggest that gear progression should be removed from the game. The OP says they voted NO. The OP also knows that most players want gear progression.

The true intent is to chide more casual players who want access to BiS gear by putting up the straw man that the other option is ZERO gear progression.

Yes that was very obvious. Like we needed another thread with elitists telling casuals to stay down and forget about gear progression in their RPG.

[arkanon]

Interestingly enough, that's not actually true. The only group of players that care about the gear they get but mostly what gear those below them get are the players at the top.

You are absolutely welcome to try and prove that is anything other than your personal bias showing through.

- - - Updated - - -

Yes that was very obvious. Like we needed another thread with elitists telling casuals to stay down and forget about gear progression in their RPG.

Isnt that interesting - even a perfectly level playing field where the only differentiation between players and the content they are able to clear is skill, and suddenly we are telling "casuals" to "stay down". The irony of this situation is that we are saying the OPPOSITE - one of two things could possibly be true here - 1) we are bringing "elitist" players down to the casuals level, or, 2) we are elevating the causals to the level of the "elitists". In no way whatsoever are causals hindered by this change. The really amusing thing here though, is that you dont say "look at this guy, telling elitists their gear shouldnt matter and to stay down and forget about gear progression in their RPG" nonono, its only casuals who are impacted in your mind - almost like you have an overwhelming bias that is so strong, you cant even see it for yourself.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh no, totally understood it. But its kind of backfired a little, hasnt it? Because the two big reasons cited are: I like getting stronger and seeing more damage. And, as you increase in power, content gets nerfed indirectly.

So players voting no kinda just want a nice game where they can chill out, overpower content with gear and not actually deal with a skill based system which a flat cap on load out would provide.

Actually, im kinda curious OP, why DID you vote no? Do you feel it wouldnt be a challenge for you, or would it be too much of one? I mean, youve continually explained why gear 'progressing' doesnt mean the challenge wont also progress (you hit harder, they hit harder), so what is it (thats not related to power progression) tying you to this system? You'd QUIT the game over this, so you must have a strong opinion on it, after all.

No, not at all. I voted no because I have played since Vanilla, and I dont believe I would enjoy the game as much without that facet of the game. No, I don't think I would struggle at all, no more or less than anyone else, but I do think it would reduce my enjoyment of the game. I do think it would be a truly eye opening experience for those naïve enough to think the only thing separating their LFR farming group from a mythic raid team is "addons and online guides", but equally I think it would be eye opening for the individuals progressing through Heroic who then try and go stomp the meters in LFR, only to realise they deal similar damage to some more skilled casuals. Although a minority, I have never argued those players dont exist, just like there are some very skilled "casual" players - they are however a tiny minority.

[ro9ue]

WoW's endless vertical power progression is the main reason I've been turned off from the game the last few years. It all becomes a meaningless ladder that gets reset every patch and expansion, so for me the cosmetics are more motivating because they're always relevant. But this really isn't an either or question.

For me the best iteration I've seen so far is in ESO with massive horizontal progression. To understand how it works I have to explain a bit how it differs from WoW:

Leveling and Champion Points: Level is hard capped at 50 always. After 50 you start getting Champion Points. All of these are account wide so if you have level capped alts progression is always shared and continued across all characters. Champion points are like a tree of passives with special nodes that have to be slotted. You have a limited number of slots available.

Class Design and Skill Lines: ESO is limited to 6 Classes, but you basically build it how you want. If you've played any Elder Scrolls game you're familiar with how it works. Each class has unique 3 skill lines. Then each armor type (light, medium, heavy) has a skill line and every weapon type (bow, daggers, axes, staves, etc) has a skill line. You build your own class through progressing these skill lines and dragging your favorite abilities to a limited hotbar. Because everyone has a limited hot bar bloat has never been an issue they've had to solve. This lets them constantly add all new skill lines (Werewolves, Assassin's Guild, etc) with DLC and expansions, but you're always picking and choosing what abilities you want. More options = horizontal progression. New builds constantly come up and experimentation is a big part of the game.

Gear: Gear level is capped and always relevant with their 'stickerbook' system. Think of the stickerbook as the WoW heirloom system, but it's for every piece of gear in the game. People miss tier in WoW but ESO goes ALL IN on armor sets. Zones have armor sets, dungeons have armor sets, their raids called trials do. You collect set items and they're added to a stickerbook so you can craft them on any character at their gear level. I could be on my level 12 Sorcerer and get a BiS for my main's build, and because it's added to the stickerbook collection I can go on my main and can craft it at his level (at cap). And because gear level is capped, they just can keep adding new sets with new bonuses and people can create their favorite setups based on an ever-expanding gear selection instead of whats just available from the current expansion. Imagine if you just really liked an old WoW tier set from MoP and can use it in Shadowlands.

So with how skill lines and CP have limited slots, they're able to continuously add new abilities and content, but you're never 'bloated'. And because items are gear level capped and they keep adding more gear sets you're constantly able to experiment with new stuff and mix and match.

Personally I love how all gear sets remain relevant, no abilities get taken away, all they do is constantly add to your pool of options and I just can't ever go back.

[arkanon]

SNIP

So i have skimmed through this and you are saying ESO has zero character power progression?

[ippollite]

You are absolutely welcome to try and prove that is anything other than your personal bias showing through.

- - - Updated - - -



Isnt that interesting - even a perfectly level playing field where the only differentiation between players and the content they are able to clear is skill, and suddenly we are telling "casuals" to "stay down". The irony of this situation is that we are saying the OPPOSITE - one of two things could possibly be true here - 1) we are bringing "elitist" players down to the casuals level, or, 2) we are elevating the causals to the level of the "elitists". In no way whatsoever are causals hindered by this change.

- - - Updated - - -



No, not at all. I voted no because I have played since Vanilla, and I dont believe I would enjoy the game as much without that facet of the game. No, I don't think I would struggle at all, no more or less than anyone else, but I do think it would reduce my enjoyment of the game. I do think it would be a truly eye opening experience for those naïve enough to think the only thing separating their LFR farming group from a mythic raid team is "addons and online guides", but equally I think it would be eye opening for the individuals progressing through Heroic who then try and go stomp the meters in LFR, only to realise they deal similar damage to some more skilled casuals. Although a minority, I have never argued those players dont exist, just like there are some very skilled "casual" players - they are however a tiny minority.

KK, im not coming for you, but you are making some curious generalisations about which group are happy with which style of play. Obviously im a total casual, and i said yes, not just to spite you, but on fair reasons. Id be happy with a flat gear cap. I dont think it would be any more gamebreaking than requiring x-gear to complete y-challenge currently in game. Still, the current game design can do exactly this as well (it just removes the variable of 'overpowering' the content (or in a more generous sense - it removes one of the variables (gear) for a tighter, more honed challenge level design where gear cant make up for mistakes). That's really all it would do. And im not sure why one group (casual players) would favor one over the other.

What the results of your poll (self-selection bias of course) suggests though, is that people like the gearing in game as it stands. They like eventually using gear to plow through content that may have been indefinitely challenging to them. And again, im not sure that this is something that applies to one specific section of the playerbase. I think it applies to the majority of players. Thus, its rather difficult to tie this into reductio ad absurdums on other threads 'calling for zero' progression' (which, you must admit, is a pretty loaded phrase and may also skew the results of the poll), or that 'gear matters more than skill'... which is a bit ironic since the poll and the responses for 'no' kinda bears this out?

[ro9ue]

So i have skimmed through this and you are saying ESO has zero character power progression?

It's not 0 but it's comparatively much lower than WoW, almost negligible. There are new CP caps and some passives are outside of the slottable bar. But I would compare this power increase to something like the Concordance node in the Legion artifacts. WoW progression in each expansion is getting +10 character levels and then another ladder for +100-200 ilevel. ESO expansions is getting +X to the CP cap resulting in +5% more hp, +5% mana, etc.

Everything else is capped. Level. Gear level (ilevel). They just add more options to choose from. Also because CP is account wide... you don't need to hit a new level cap and then gear grind more ilevel on top of it per alt.

[arkanon]

KK, im not coming for you, but you are making some curious generalisations about which group are happy with which style of play. Obviously im a total casual, and i said yes, not just to spite you, but on fair reasons. Id be happy with a flat gear cap. I wouldnt be happy with a full fps style template system though. I dont think it would be any more gamebreaking than requiring x-gear to complete y-challenge currently in game. Still, the current game design can do exactly this as well (it just removes the variable of 'overpowering' the content (or in a more generous sense - it removes one of the variables (gear) for a tighter, more honed challenge level design where gear cant make up for mistakes). That's really all it would do. And im not sure why one group (casual players) would favor one over the other.

What the results of your poll (self-selection bias of course) suggests though, is that people like the gearing in game as it stands. They like eventually using gear to plow through content that may have been indefinitely challenging to them. And again, im not sure that this is something that applies to one specific section of the playerbase. I think it applies to the majority of players. Thus, its rather difficult to tie this into reductio ad absurdums on other threads 'calling for zero' progression' (which, you must admit, is a pretty loaded phrase and may also skew the results of the poll), or that 'gear matters more than skill'... which is a bit ironic since the poll and the responses for 'no' kinda bears this out?

You actually dont KNOW most of what you claim to though. Outside of those who have outlined why they clicked yes/no, you have absolutely zero knowledge of why someone made the selection they did - you are making wild assumptions about this. Secondly, you say "it shows people are happy with the game as it stands", while ignoring 1/3 of the results. It shows more people would not continue playing, absolutely, but I personally am very surprised that one third of the player base would continue playing.

Again, you know what people have selected, but be careful making the claim that you know WHY they made that selection, or extrapolating more information out of such a simple question than is really there.

[ippollite]

You actually dont KNOW most of what you claim to though. Outside of those who have outlined why they clicked yes/no, you have absolutely zero knowledge of why someone made the selection they did - you are making wild assumptions about this. Secondly, you say "it shows people are happy with the game as it stands", while ignoring 1/3 of the results. It shows more people would not continue playing, absolutely, but I personally am very surprised that one third of the player base would continue playing.

Again, you know what people have selected, but be careful making the claim that you know WHY they made that selection, or extrapolating more information out of such a simple question than is really there.

Weird reaction. Im READING the responses of the people who i presume have voted on the poll. I can see the reasons they gave. I dont need to extrapolate anything. Oh, and if you want to say 'but ipps, you dont know why ALL the people voted thus! Therefore you are extrapolating based on insufficient information' all i can say is, 'whats good for the goose...'