Punk rockers/anarchists and Libertarians, what is the difference?

[Machismo]

That doesn't seem to answer my question. I'm aware that a timeline was presented, that's what I referenced for my post.

I just don't understand the significance of their earlier vote against it, which came before the more serious news came out about lead contamination etc. Why bring it up at all? They voted based on available information they had, which in hindsight was wrong, and voted to change their minds as new information became available.

Isn't that like, how we'd hope governments (and people) would operate? Changing their opinions in light of new information?

They were aware of water issues, because they had some the previous year. GM had already made note of it, an and they had boiling orders.

[Ivanstone]

But, I'd be a fucking moron to think they were the only ones at fault.

They are the only ones at fault. If they didn't appoint emergency managers and then create a cover-up I would agree with you. But they did, so I don't.

You're also ignoring the decades of shoddy regulations meant to appease free market principles. Also there's a lot of fucking racism mixed in with this as well.

[Machismo]

They are the only ones at fault. If they didn't appoint emergency managers and then create a cover-up I would agree with you. But they did, so I don't.

You're also ignoring the decades of shoddy regulations meant to appease free market principles. Also there's a lot of fucking racism mixed in with this as well.

Are you saying the city leaders had no idea what was going on? They had no idea that GM stopped using the water? They had no idea that there were orders to boil the water in parts of the city?

And let's not forget, they had gotten to that point, because they were going fucking broke in the city.

[The Casualty]

The timeline has been presented.

I'm not trying to absolve the GOP in the state of their guilt, this was an epic shitshow. All the players involved are incompetent assholes.

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Rick Snyder is a Republican, and I have no problem lumping him in with all the incompetent assholes.

This both sides stuff is tiring. You can pull one line from a Wikipedia article that gives a brief snippet, but I will tell you I was there at the time. It was entirely the emergency manager and Snyder and his staff. There were also issues of information about how bad it was covered up with executive privilege so the local folks weren't given all of the information. Incompetent doesn't even begin to scratch it. I personally would have used the word "criminal".

[Machismo]

This both sides stuff is tiring. You can pull one line from a Wikipedia article that gives a brief snippet, but I will tell you I was there at the time. It was entirely the emergency manager and Snyder and his staff. There were also issues of information about how bad it was covered up with executive privilege so the local folks weren't given all of the information. Incompetent doesn't even begin to scratch it. I personally would have used the word "criminal".

So, the city leaders had no idea the water was bad? Even through the boiling orders were unknown to the city leaders?

[The Casualty]

And let's not forget, they had gotten to that point, because they were going fucking broke in the city.

Ah yes, "you made us poison you"

[Machismo]

Ah yes, "you made us poison you"

No, that was just the likely reason they shifted water sources, the cost.

[The Casualty]

So, the city leaders had no idea the water was bad? Even through the boiling orders were unknown to the city leaders?

There were conflicting reports from the governor's office - and the testing they were doing was skewed:


Miguel Del Toral, an E.P.A. expert, says that the state was testing the water in a way that could profoundly understate the lead levels.

“Given the very high lead levels found at one home and the preflushing happening in Flint, I’m worried that the whole town may have much higher lead levels than the compliance results indicated.”

[Stormspellz]

The timeline has been presented.

I'm not trying to absolve the GOP in the state of their guilt, this was an epic shitshow. All the players involved are incompetent assholes.

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Rick Snyder is a Republican, and I have no problem lumping him in with all the incompetent assholes.

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The city leaders also knew, that's the point. Just because Snyder is a corrupt asshat, doesn't mean the Flint leaders are innocent.

so synder criminally lied to the councilmen with a bogus study among other things but that doesn't matter because they still voted even it was based on criminal malicious wrong information, what ridiculous kind of logic is that.

Are you saying the city leaders had no idea what was going on? They had no idea that GM stopped using the water? They had no idea that there were orders to boil the water in parts of the city?

And let's not forget, they had gotten to that point, because they were going fucking broke in the city.

man your back must be heavy from repeatedly moving goalposts

[Machismo]

There were conflicting reports from the governor's office - and the testing they were doing was skewed:


Miguel Del Toral, an E.P.A. expert, says that the state was testing the water in a way that could profoundly understate the lead levels.

“Given the very high lead levels found at one home and the preflushing happening in Flint, I’m worried that the whole town may have much higher lead levels than the compliance results indicated.”

That seems to be in 2015, but there were issues before that, even.

[Edge-]

They were aware of water issues, because they had some the previous year. GM had already made note of it, an and they had boiling orders.

They had indications, but no hard evidence, yes. As more evidence was presented they changed their opinion...again, isn't this how we'd hope things would work? Changing your opinion in light of new evidence?

[Machismo]

so synder criminally lied to the councilmen with a bogus study among other things but that doesn't matter because they still voted even it was based on criminal malicious wrong information, what ridiculous kind of logic is that.



man your back must be heavy from repeatedly moving goalposts

They implemented water boiling in parts of the city, so they knew something was amiss...

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They had indications, but no hard evidence, yes. As more evidence was presented they changed their opinion...again, isn't this how we'd hope things would work? Changing your opinion in light of new evidence?

They had enough to require boiling water months before that. GM had already stopped using the water.

Yes, they did change their minds, and Snyder's corrupt fuckery took over. That doesn't absolve them of their responsibility as city leaders.

[Stormspellz]

They implemented water boiling in parts of the city, so they knew something was amiss...

I get fucking boiling warnings on heavy/flood level rains, galaxy jumps to go from that to "dems and republicans are equally to blame for flint" even more so with the governor criminally lying about the studies and various reports on the situation

classic republican victim blaming

That doesn't absolve them of their responsibility as city leaders.

its your fault we lied to you!!!

[Machismo]

I get fucking boiling warnings on heavy/flood level rains, galaxy jumps to go from that to "dems and republicans are equally to blame for flint" even more so with the governor criminally lying about the studies and various reports on the situation

When did I say they are equally to blame?

I blame the city leaders, Snyder, the mayor, Snyder's henchmen, and anyone else who was an incompetent asshole.

What I will not do, is say that Snyder and the GOP are solely to blame.

[Ivanstone]

Are you saying the city leaders had no idea what was going on? They had no idea that GM stopped using the water? They had no idea that there were orders to boil the water in parts of the city?

And let's not forget, they had gotten to that point, because they were going fucking broke in the city.

What they knew and didn't knew doesn't matter because they weren't in control.

Hi! This is racism saying hello. Sub-urban and rural white folk have been fucking over Urban black folk in Michigan for decades. In any event poisoning people is immoral regardless of the state of city finances.

[Edge-]

When did I say they are equally to blame?

I blame the city leaders, Snyder, the mayor, Snyder's henchmen, and anyone else who was an incompetent asshole.

What I will not do, is say that Snyder and the GOP are solely to blame.

You're conflating, "We didn't know the extent and made bad decisions until we had more information." with, "We had more information and knew the decision was bad and decided for force that decision to remain in place despite the risks that we were now aware of." as if they're both somehow equally, or similarly, as bad.

Big "both sides" energy.

[Machismo]

What they knew and didn't knew doesn't matter because they weren't in control.

Hi! This is racism saying hello. Sub-urban and rural white folk have been fucking over Urban black folk in Michigan for decades. In any event poisoning people is immoral regardless of the state of city finances.

They voted to not change water, months after two water boilings, and GM stopping the use of the water.

[Edge-]

They voted to not change water, months after two water boilings, and GM stopping the use of the water.

Water boiling isn't evidence of lead contamination or broader issues discovered later. See: Texas and their water boil order following the freeze there.

[Machismo]

You're conflating, "We didn't know the extent and made bad decisions until we had more information." with, "We had more information and knew the decision was bad and decided for force that decision to remain in place despite the risks that we were now aware of." as if they're both somehow equally, or similarly, as bad.

Big "both sides" energy.

They did make bad decisions, that's the point. I'm not saying the city leaders should be drawn and quartered, but I'd be a fucking fool to think they don't bear at least some responsibility.

[Stormspellz]

When did I say they are equally to blame?

I blame the city leaders, Snyder, the mayor, Snyder's henchmen, and anyone else who was an incompetent asshole.

What I will not do, is say that Snyder and the GOP are solely to blame.

a few times indirectly, you know when the city's flint control of the situation went out the window with the first emergency manage but you still blame them for the criminal behavior then blame them for voting with again criminal malicious misinformation as the basis as the center point, and now its "well boiling orders" which again they didn't have any control even if that actually held any merit.