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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    I did say int he first post. It's collection is in the form of pips that comes from all content you complete and it's used to gain power (among other things). It's the same plus a bit extra cause no one cares about the buildings and cosmetics by now.
    Having some slight overlap is a far cry from being "the same". The power gain isn't even tied to the Anima, but the process of collecting it. You still get to keep the 1000 Anima. You're just flat-out misrepresenting how it works.

    Your AP equivalent in this scenario is still Renown, not Anima. Renown is what gets you the power gain. Renown is what you actually get for any of the activities that let you gain power in this avenue. Anima is just a resource used to buy cosmetics and upgrade your Sanctum. You cannot spend Anima to get Renown.

    This isn't opinion. You're factually wrong about how the system works.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    I guess, situation is extremely bad in Wow, because Blizzard started to use "endless grind" mechanics. Why? Because they're good for keeping old players, but are extremely bad for new players. In the past Blizzard always relied on new players, starting playing at any moment, even mid xpack. Catch-ups were used to let them start playing current endgame. But now we have "endless grind" mechanics. For example 300k anima at 1200 a day rate would require 7.5 months to grind. I.e. I realized, that if I would want to resub right now, I would never be able to catch-up. And this means, Blizzard don't rely on new players.
    Quote Originally Posted by schwarzkopf View Post
    It is also (according to previous expansions) a fantastic thing and basically why this expansion is awesome.

    The real reason this expansion has no legs is that after 4 expansions of reducing grind by popular demand, they released an expansion with not even a hint of a grind.

    There is no reason to log in, and no reason to whinge about having to log in.
    So the game is dying because it has too much endless grind while also having no reason to log in because the game has nothing to grind.

    Of course. Makes total sense.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Wuusah View Post
    So the game is dying because it has too much endless grind while also having no reason to log in because the game has nothing to grind.

    Of course. Makes total sense.
    Just remind yourself that the game has been 'dying' for more than a decade already. It makes a lot more sense then.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Having some slight overlap is a far cry from being "the same". The power gain isn't even tied to the Anima, but the process of collecting it. You still get to keep the 1000 Anima. You're just flat-out misrepresenting how it works.

    Your AP equivalent in this scenario is still Renown, not Anima. Renown is what gets you the power gain. Renown is what you actually get for any of the activities that let you gain power in this avenue. Anima is just a resource used to buy cosmetics and upgrade your Sanctum. You cannot spend Anima to get Renown.
    Yes, and renown is progressed by doing the 1k anima quests. You are the one factually wrong. It's collected in the same exact way as AP, it's spent to unlock power and other things. But, you do you. If you want to pretend you aren't using AP to unlock power, you can. I don't really care.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    Yes, and renown is progressed by doing the 1k anima quests. You are the one factually wrong. It's collected in the same exact way as AP, it's spent to unlock power and other things. But, you do you. If you want to pretend you aren't using AP to unlock power, you can. I don't really care.
    Renown can be progressed by doing a quest to collect 1000 Anima. Not by actually spending those 1000 Anima. That alone is already a major difference.

    The weekly is comparable to a weekly providing some large amount of AP for collecting the expansions specific Resource currency. It doesn't make Anima an AP equivalent or even similar to it, no matter how often you claim that. Sure, it can be gotten from similar sources as AP... but so could you get previous resources.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Renown can be progressed by doing a quest to collect 1000 Anima. Not by actually spending those 1000 Anima. That alone is already a major difference.

    The weekly is comparable to a weekly providing some large amount of AP for collecting the expansions specific Resource currency. It doesn't make Anima an AP equivalent or even similar to it, no matter how often you claim that. Sure, it can be gotten from similar sources as AP... but so could you get previous resources.
    No, it doesnt. It's the same thing wether it goes in a bar or not. You still have to aquire it. It's just it gets used for other purposes as well.
    The gameplay is the same. How can you not see this? You go to a WQ, or a dungeon, a raid or PvP where you aquire pips of this AP. Once you hit 1000 you gain one level of renown which is not always power but, it's a means to get there. In practice, the gameplay is the same. It's just weekly capped and this AP can then be used to buy other stuff. The AP itself has more uses, but the gameplay experience is the same.
    So, if anything it's AP+. A merger of AP and resources if you want. But, the collection works like AP.
    Last edited by Swnem; 2021-04-15 at 10:49 PM.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    No, it doesnt. It's the same thing wether it goes in a bar or not. You still have to aquire it. It's just it gets used for other purposes as well.
    The gameplay is the same. How can you not see this? You go to a WQ, or a dungeon, a raid or PvP where you aquire pips of this AP. Once you hit 1000 you gain one level of renown which is not always power but, it's a means to get there. In practice, the gameplay is the same. It's just weekly capped and this AP can then be used to buy other stuff. The AP itself has more uses, but the gameplay experience is the same.
    So, if anything it's AP+. A merger of AP and resources if you want. But, the collection works like AP.
    No, you do not have to gain anima at all. Renown drops basically from "playing the game", be it callings, doing dungeons, killing world/raid bosses, or doing the covenant weeklies.

    It's a common mistake, based on the early months of SL where we all did our weeklies and campaigns to stay on top of the renown track. But even back then it wasn't true, and it's certainly not true now: Anima has nothing but an extremely weak connection to Renown. Anima is not in any way Artifact Power. Renown and/or Soul Ash, they have things in common with Artifact Power. Anima doesn't.


    To take a Legion example: back then we had some World Quests that gave AP, and some that gave Order Resources. The AP world quests died with BfA - the Order Resources WQs have stayed with us, and now give anima.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ippollite View Post
    And there's perhaps an issue here. Because the game seems to be painting itself into a corner. In that focus on the progression game, they've made the gameplay loop for players like myself less interesting and engaging. So the scope of my aspiration is, i suppose, precisely in the doll house features in game and eventually collecting them. And so logically, why grind them and hate my life, when i can ignore them, wait for the next major patch to drop and then collect them while im doing (hopefully) more engaging content? So... 'its never worth it' feels slightly inaccurate. It definitely is worth it. If my sub has a monetary value (i get x amount of content for x dollars per month) and yet that content remains attainable (and even stacks up) the longer i leave my sub to rot, the more "value" im getting upon my return.
    The publishers have a vested interest in keeping us subbed, but the way we, as players, should look at it is: Do I want to play? If no, then don't. *Especially* if you're a casual player, a collector, only play if you like the experience of flying around collecting. If you honestly feel that SL doesn't have anything for you now, then let your sub lapse and come back later to check it out. Or, go back to old content, if there are still things undone. I spent a lot of time in BfA mainly running Legion raids, mostly for transmogs but also to see quest lines (Balance of Power) and to see how far I could push solo (for me, that was Mythic Nighthold up to but not including Gul'dan).

    I maintain that if you really feel that "I could come back later and do this, why am I playing" my honest belief is that you should unsub. For me, my guild has awoken from its sleep and we're running m+ and normal raids, so I'm happy as a clam. I do find that the "anima grind" has become surprisingly more pleasant after the recent hotfix (more anima for upgrading covenants), which is good as it gives me stuff to do while waiting four guildies to log on, or just for having a low effort game when I don't feel like pushing m+, herding slackers in raid, or trying to escape bronze in Overwatch.

    I mostly prefer to do content when it's current if possible, even though I also like to go back and solo old raids. But if you honestly don't care about "staying current" - it's perfectly possible to just play old expansions. I know several people who enjoy wow without buying the latest expansion, and are happily freeloading one expansion behind as they become part of the base game.
    Last edited by paxen; 2021-04-15 at 11:47 PM.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by paxen View Post
    No, you do not have to gain anima at all. Renown drops basically from "playing the game", be it callings, doing dungeons, killing world/raid bosses, or doing the covenant weeklies.

    It's a common mistake, based on the early months of SL where we all did our weeklies and campaigns to stay on top of the renown track. But even back then it wasn't true, and it's certainly not true now: Anima has nothing but an extremely weak connection to Renown. Anima is not in any way Artifact Power. Renown and/or Soul Ash, they have things in common with Artifact Power. Anima doesn't.


    To take a Legion example: back then we had some World Quests that gave AP, and some that gave Order Resources. The AP world quests died with BfA - the Order Resources WQs have stayed with us, and now give anima.

    - - - Updated - - -



    The publishers have a vested interest in keeping us subbed, but the way we, as players, should look at it is: Do I want to play? If no, then don't. *Especially* if you're a casual player, a collector, only play if you like the experience of flying around collecting. If you honestly feel that SL doesn't have anything for you now, then let your sub lapse and come back later to check it out. Or, go back to old content, if there are still things undone. I spent a lot of time in BfA mainly running Legion raids, mostly for transmogs but also to see quest lines (Balance of Power) and to see how far I could push solo (for me, that was Mythic Nighthold up to but not including Gul'dan).

    I maintain that if you really feel that "I could come back later and do this, why am I playing" my honest belief is that you should unsub. For me, my guild has awoken from its sleep and we're running m+ and normal raids, so I'm happy as a clam. I do find that the "anima grind" has become surprisingly more pleasant after the recent hotfix (more anima for upgrading covenants), which is good as it gives me stuff to do while waiting four guildies to log on, or just for having a low effort game when I don't feel like pushing m+, herding slackers in raid, or trying to escape bronze in Overwatch.

    I mostly prefer to do content when it's current if possible, even though I also like to go back and solo old raids. But if you honestly don't care about "staying current" - it's perfectly possible to just play old expansions. I know several people who enjoy wow without buying the latest expansion, and are happily freeloading one expansion behind as they become part of the base game.
    They definitely do have a vested interest to keep us all subbed. So its kind of a wonder that they arent necessarily keeping us subbed. Mine dropped in january. Again, i made a financial calculation: I was at or near the power progression wall (not complaining about it, just stating a fact), the anima grind hadn't grabbed me (cost, availability of rewards, low rates of anima), what gameplay i actually had was in those two to three hour windows post reset (running weeklies and MAYBE LFR). So i figured back then, im not doing this all the way until APRIL!!!! I reasoned: Blizzcon theyd announce 9.1 and we'd get the ptr pretty soon after, so thats Mid april at the latest, thus i was paying 45 bucks to tread water. Of course, now we've just had the ptr release, it turns out we wont be getting the 9.1 drop until june at the earliest - so its 75 bucks (or 90 if it drops in July), and then 3 months for renown to clear... and thats 120-135 bucks. And im assuming june or july patch drop there. Then im assuming we're doing another treading water hard cap like 9.0... so another 3 or so months of doing not much... thats almost 200 bucks! So why not just wait until 9.2 is a month into its ptr. Spend one month playing catch up and one month playing 9.2. Unless of course, it too comes with another renown timegated unlock, in which case, i guess im waiting till that opens up and we repeat the cycle of delayed gratification anew?

    I know this sounds hilariously weird. I have no idea why im suddenly bean counting my way through this. Ive never had that kind of relationship with my wow sub before. If i wanted to play it, i paid to play it. Now ive got this world of subcraft going on in my head. And it has to be because of the timegating. And again... the timegating isnt new. Suramar was timegated, the thingy isles with khadgar and the mage tower was THE most cynical time gated quest ive ever seen (hey champion! go kill 100 of these mobs, and we'll see you next week!). So im not sure why its suddenly front and center. Maybe its the confluence with the hardcap? I dunno. I just think its funny, that as the game feels more cynically padded to retain my sub, my relationship with it becomes more demanding ("okay, so what are you going to give me to hold my sub over x-months?").

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by ippollite View Post
    So its kind of a wonder that they arent necessarily keeping us subbed.
    Not really. It's simply impossible to keep everybody unless you have some way of forcing the matter, which in most countries would be illegal.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Not really. It's simply impossible to keep everybody unless you have some way of forcing the matter, which in most countries would be illegal.
    Sure. Wow can design the game how it wants. But if it wants my money, then they better provide me something i want to play.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by ippollite View Post
    Sure. Wow can design the game how it wants. But if it wants my money, then they better provide me something i want to play.
    You're just going in circles now. They don't want your money because getting your money would mean losing somebody else who they consider likely to pay better and they can't get you both.

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