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  1. #1901
    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    Yes, I have explained how they’re corporatist. Now your term, one long term solution for funding government.
    Which solutions are you talking about?

    Opposing things like abortion restrictions are corporatist?

    Pushing to legalize marijuana is corporatist?

  2. #1902
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Are we back to Flint, where the Democratic leaders voted to change to the cheaper water? Do you really want to go there?

    Well, they capitalized on the choices people made, and so do I.
    Yes, yes I do. Because I know this was a problem created by the GOP and only the GOP. On the plus side, Flint's getting new investments! They have some new charter schools. I hope they're not owned by the DeVos family.

    They sold people a product they like. You originally framed it as theatre's capitalizing on a people's mistakes (which is not remotely virtuous). Which is just more of you delivering terrible analogies instead of actually trying to convince us of your beliefs.

  3. #1903
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Yes, defense contractors and government contractors will see this.
    So companies would need to lay off workers. That's going to reduce tax revenue and would increase government spending on welfare programs, you know that? It would also decrease personal spending, which in turn would have an impact on other companies not contracted by the government.

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    It's not really a big if, since we have decades of revenue numbers to work with.
    Decades of revenue numbers show that tax revenue does not stay the same, like, there are impressive large differences.

    Here's a list of tax revenue per year in the US:
    Code:
    FY 2018	$3.33 trillion
    FY 2017	$3.32 trillion
    FY 2016	$3.27 trillion
    FY 2015	$3.25 trillion
    FY 2014	$3.02 trillion
    FY 2013	$2.77 trillion
    FY 2012	$2.45 trillion
    FY 2011	$2.30 trillion
    FY 2010	$2.16 trillion
    FY 2009	$2.10 trillion
    FY 2008	$2.52 trillion
    FY 2007	$2.57 trillion
    FY 2006	$2.41 trillion
    FY 2005	$2.15 trillion
    FY 2004	$1.88 trillion
    FY 2003	$1.78 trillion
    FY 2002	$1.85 trillion
    FY 2001	$1.99 trillion
    FY 2000	$2.03 trillion
    FY 1999	$1.82 trillion
    FY 1998	$1.72 trillion
    FY 1997	$1.58 trillion
    FY 1996	$1.45 trillion
    FY 1995	$1.35 trillion
    FY 1994	$1.26 trillion
    FY 1993	$1.15 trillion
    FY 1992	$1.09 trillion
    FY 1991	$1.05 trillion
    FY 1990	$1.03 trillion
    Remember, that's under the current system where the government does not try to keep government debt out of their books whatever it takes. If you want to convince anyone of your great idea, you might want to show how it would've impacted the US over the past 20 years. That's a lot of math but I am sure you can do it. It's in hindsight, but at least you'd had something to show for.

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    This would loser the deficit over time...
    Wishful thinking is not the great economic policy you think it is.
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  4. #1904
    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    So companies would need to lay off workers. That's going to reduce tax revenue and would increase government spending on welfare programs, you know that? It would also decrease personal spending, which in turn would have an impact on other companies not contracted by the government.



    Decades of revenue numbers show that tax revenue does not stay the same, like, there are impressive large differences.

    Here's a list of tax revenue per year in the US:
    Code:
    FY 2018	$3.33 trillion
    FY 2017	$3.32 trillion
    FY 2016	$3.27 trillion
    FY 2015	$3.25 trillion
    FY 2014	$3.02 trillion
    FY 2013	$2.77 trillion
    FY 2012	$2.45 trillion
    FY 2011	$2.30 trillion
    FY 2010	$2.16 trillion
    FY 2009	$2.10 trillion
    FY 2008	$2.52 trillion
    FY 2007	$2.57 trillion
    FY 2006	$2.41 trillion
    FY 2005	$2.15 trillion
    FY 2004	$1.88 trillion
    FY 2003	$1.78 trillion
    FY 2002	$1.85 trillion
    FY 2001	$1.99 trillion
    FY 2000	$2.03 trillion
    FY 1999	$1.82 trillion
    FY 1998	$1.72 trillion
    FY 1997	$1.58 trillion
    FY 1996	$1.45 trillion
    FY 1995	$1.35 trillion
    FY 1994	$1.26 trillion
    FY 1993	$1.15 trillion
    FY 1992	$1.09 trillion
    FY 1991	$1.05 trillion
    FY 1990	$1.03 trillion
    Remember, that's under the current system where the government does not try to keep government debt out of their books whatever it takes. If you want to convince anyone of your great idea, you might want to show how it would've impacted the US over the past 20 years. That's a lot of math but I am sure you can do it. It's in hindsight, but at least you'd had something to show for.



    Wishful thinking is not the great economic policy you think it is.
    As it shows, it traditionally goes up... does it not?

    So, over time, if revenue goes up, and spending stays the same...

    I'll let you make the connection.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    Yes, yes I do. Because I know this was a problem created by the GOP and only the GOP. On the plus side, Flint's getting new investments! They have some new charter schools. I hope they're not owned by the DeVos family.

    They sold people a product they like. You originally framed it as theatre's capitalizing on a people's mistakes (which is not remotely virtuous). Which is just more of you delivering terrible analogies instead of actually trying to convince us of your beliefs.
    SO, back to this... only the GOP fucked up Flint?

    Let's put this out there, Snyder and his band of merry fuckwads screwed up huge. But, to say that no Democrats fucked up, is straight disinformation. The Democrats voted for the cheaper option, which you just condemned. The Democrats voted to keep the cheaper option, even after two water boilings, and GM stopped using the water. the Democratic mayor chose to go on television and swear the water was safe, months after the EPA had tested higher lead levels. The Dems were in charge when they didn't use the corrosion inhibitors in the new water.

    I simply bought something someone wanted to sell.

  5. #1905
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    As it shows, it traditionally goes up... does it not?

    So, over time, if revenue goes up, and spending stays the same...

    I'll let you make the connection.
    Then, as both inflation and population growth continue to occur year after year, that spending actually covers less and less over time, leading to a direct reduction in how much benefit government programs can provide.

    That's the connection you keep trying to skip past.


  6. #1906
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Then, as both inflation and population growth continue to occur year after year, that spending actually covers less and less over time, leading to a direct reduction in how much benefit government programs can provide.

    That's the connection you keep trying to skip past.
    Yes, that's the point. That's the entire point of doing it. I'm not trying to skip it, that's the goal.

    Welcome to the conversation. It forces those government agencies to be more efficient with their money.

  7. #1907
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    As it shows, it traditionally goes up... does it not?
    So you want to walk back your statement that tax revenue stays the same? And again, that is under the current system, not your system. Show how your system would work, you've got decades of numbers to work with.

    Nothing about the part where people lose their job? Just ignoring how that would affect companies and revenue?

    Why do you hate capitalism so much?

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    So, over time, if revenue goes up, and spending stays the same...
    In the current system, not your system.

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    I'll let you make the connection.
    There's none as they are two different systems.
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  8. #1908
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Yes, that's the point. That's the entire point of doing it. I'm not trying to skip it, that's the goal.

    Welcome to the conversation. It forces those government agencies to be more efficient with their money.
    That presumes, based on nothing, that there are efficiency gains to be made up.

    Realistically, you're arguing to reduce services to those who rely on them.


  9. #1909
    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    So you want to walk back your statement that tax revenue stays the same? And again, that is under the current system, not your system. Show how your system would work, you've got decades of numbers to work with.

    Nothing about the part where people lose their job? Just ignoring how that would affect companies and revenue?

    Why do you hate capitalism so much?



    In the current system, not your system.



    There's none as they are two different systems.
    I never said tax revenue stays the same, did I?

    I literally just explained how it works.

    My recommendation does nothing to the current tax structure for 5 years, it merely puts a halt on government spending increases. So, that increase in revenue over the 5-years would lower the deficit.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    That presumes, based on nothing, that there are efficiency gains to be made up.

    Realistically, you're arguing to reduce services to those who rely on them.
    It presumes that tax revenues go up over time, which they do

  10. #1910
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    SO, back to this... only the GOP fucked up Flint?

    Let's put this out there, Snyder and his band of merry fuckwads screwed up huge. But, to say that no Democrats fucked up, is straight disinformation. The Democrats voted for the cheaper option, which you just condemned. The Democrats voted to keep the cheaper option, even after two water boilings, and GM stopped using the water. the Democratic mayor chose to go on television and swear the water was safe, months after the EPA had tested higher lead levels. The Dems were in charge when they didn't use the corrosion inhibitors in the new water.

    I simply bought something someone wanted to sell.
    Correct. For the entire duration of the crisis the GOP was in charge of the city of Flint.

    To quote Donald Trump:
    "Leadership: Whatever happens, you’re responsible. If it doesn’t happen, you’re responsible."

    Rick Snyder is a piece of shit who poisoned people. And he did it for the Free Market Principle of cost cutting. I think you said you like it when the government cut costs.

    No, that's not what you said. You specifically stated that movie theatre's capitalize on the poor planning of their customer's dinner.

  11. #1911
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    Correct. For the entire duration of the crisis the GOP was in charge of the city of Flint.

    To quote Donald Trump:
    "Leadership: Whatever happens, you’re responsible. If it doesn’t happen, you’re responsible."

    Rick Snyder is a piece of shit who poisoned people. And he did it for the Free Market Principle of cost cutting. I think you said you like it when the government cut costs.

    No, that's not what you said. You specifically stated that movie theatre's capitalize on the poor planning of their customer's dinner.
    Nope, the timeline disagrees with you.

    Does that comment include the Democratic leaders of the city, and the mayor?

    Those people wanted to sell me their property.
    Last edited by Machismo; 2021-04-15 at 03:00 PM.

  12. #1912
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Nope, the timeline disagrees with you.

    Does that comment include the Democratic leaders of the city, and the mayor?

    Those people wanted to sell me their property.
    It doesn't.

    They weren't in charge. Rick Snyder and his emergency managers were in charge.

    You framed it originally as capitalizing on the housing crisis. Make up your mind!

  13. #1913
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    It doesn't.

    They weren't in charge. Rick Snyder and his emergency managers were in charge.

    You framed it originally as capitalizing on the housing crisis. Make up your mind!
    They literally voted to change the water in the first place (because it was cheaper). They chose to not use corrosion inhibitors. They chose to not switch after two water boilings, and GM stopping the usage. The mayor went on television months after increased lead levels were detected by the EPA, and swore the water was safe.

    Snyder has plenty that he's responsible for, as to the emergency managers. But these are the actions that those city leaders and the mayor took.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    Already explained. Answer the question.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Oh, you did answer. You want to reduce government until it no longer exists.
    It's weird that you think opposing abortion restrictions makes me a corporatist.

    That last part is simply another lie.

  14. #1914
    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    It’s weird you don’t think giving corporations unlimited financial influence in politics, as well as ownership of our nation’s infrastructure, is corporatist. Caught up yet?
    I'm still trying to figure out how legalizing marijuana and opposing abortion regulations is corporatist. Could you show how that's the case?

  15. #1915
    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    I’m still trying to figure out why you think lip service like that matters when we’re discussing infrastructure and financial influence.
    You are saying the all those things I called for are corporatist.

    I specifically brought up those things, as well as others. Oh, but you ignored all that, didn't you? That was probably around the time you were calling me an anarchist.

  16. #1916
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    I never said tax revenue stays the same, did I?
    uhu sure

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    f tax levels remain the same, then the only real reason for revenue to decrease, would be in a recession. And, over time, you see that GDP and revenues increase.
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    I literally just explained how it works.

    My recommendation does nothing to the current tax structure for 5 years, it merely puts a halt on government spending increases. So, that increase in revenue over the 5-years would lower the deficit.
    You can't assume an increase because sometimes there's a decrease, then what?

    Considering you don't want to show any numbers as part of your "explanation" I must assume you merely wish to be right.
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  17. #1917
    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    uhu sure





    You can't assume an increase because sometimes there's a decrease, then what?

    Considering you don't want to show any numbers as part of your "explanation" I must assume you merely wish to be right.
    I said tax levels, not revenue. I meant tax rates. That seems pretty easy to figure out.

    Sometimes there is a decrease. But, over time... it trends upwards.

    I showed numbers, and almost any 5-year stretch shows a gain in revenue.

  18. #1918
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    I'm still trying to figure out how legalizing marijuana and opposing abortion regulations is corporatist. Could you show how that's the case?
    Let me help, they have nothing to do with each other. You wanting to legalize marijuana and opposing abortion regulations means fuck all if your proposed system gives corporations even more power.
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  19. #1919
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    They literally voted to change the water in the first place (because it was cheaper). They chose to not use corrosion inhibitors. They chose to not switch after two water boilings, and GM stopping the usage. The mayor went on television months after increased lead levels were detected by the EPA, and swore the water was safe.
    They literally did what the Emergency Manager told them to do. The Mayor and Council were not in charge. WHY CAN YOU NOT GRASP THIS??!?!?!

    Like seriously virtually everyone in this mess who is getting charged is a state manager. Snyder and Emergency Manager Darnell Earley are both getting charged. Mayor Dayne Walling and any Flint Councillor are not.

  20. #1920
    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    Let me help, they have nothing to do with each other. You wanting to legalize marijuana and opposing abortion regulations means fuck all if your proposed system gives corporations even more power.
    He said my stances and proposals are corporatist, when I was pointing to the list of recommendations I made, that he completely ignored.

    Meanwhile, people have no problem with corporations like JD having more power....

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    They literally did what the Emergency Manager told them to do. The Mayor and Council were not in charge. WHY CAN YOU NOT GRASP THIS??!?!?!

    Like seriously virtually everyone in this mess who is getting charged is a state manager. Snyder and Emergency Manager Darnell Earley are both getting charged. Mayor Dayne Walling and any Flint Councillor are not.
    They chose to vote for it. They chose to go on television to push the misinformation that it was safe..

    I know you don't want to hear this, but people are responsible for the choices they make in life.

    WHY CAN YOU NOT GRASP THIS??!?!?!

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