Do most Alliance and Horde players like Saurfang?

[Mehrunes]

Damn, never thought I'd see the day where @Super Dickmann is outed as an Alliance partisan /s

[Powerogue]

I'm not sure where all the hate came from, everything they built on was building on his most significant character defining moments from WotLK. Maybe it's that he was doing too little fighting, too much lamenting? It was compelling, but didn't make him much of a badass, the emphasis was on how that was how he was such a pillar of the Horde and now he's wondering if all he did was lie to himself all these years about that this Horde would be different and one worth fighting for. It was an expansion about finding hope in utter hopelessness.

He was clearly the character Horde players were supposed to most sympathize with, being in a similar position of despair at the state of the faction after Teldrassil, but between the stunning amount of actual real life sociopaths, people who prefer to RP sociopaths, and otherwise, it didn't mesh with everybody.



I still applaud them for the incredibly ballsy story. They went out of their way to get the playerbase invested in it with overwhelming success. But just because people are invested doesn't mean they'll like how it plays out.

[rogueMatthias]

He was clearly the character Horde players were supposed to most sympathize with, being in a similar position of despair at the state of the faction after Teldrassil, but between the stunning amount of actual real life sociopaths, people who prefer to RP sociopaths, and otherwise, it didn't mesh with everybody.

Yeah but he was still an active participant. He showed sadness about what had become of the Horde, but no real guilt about actively helping genocide. Blizzard wanted us to all root for him and sypathise with him but it was unearned, - noobody would be rooting for an Auschwitz guard just because he was sad Germany was in a state of disrepair.

I used to like him, but BFA trash writing like that really ruined the character for me.

Him getting a hero send off from Anduin when he helped genocide all the Night Elves was really the cherry on the cake.

[geco]

He was clearly the character Horde players were supposed to most sympathize with, being in a similar position of despair at the state of the faction after Teldrassil, but between the stunning amount of actual real life sociopaths, people who prefer to RP sociopaths, and otherwise, it didn't mesh with everybody.

If Bardock had declared the Mak'gora at the beginning of the pre-patch he would surely have the support of the majority.

Now it is just one more genocide. You can choose between muscular gencoid and gencoid with boobs.

That cinematic is great. Because not even with all the mental gymnastics of the world Anduin can put the Alliance at the level of the Horde and has to resort to things that happened before WoW vs things that literally just happened.

[Powerogue]

Yeah but he was still an active participant. He showed sadness about what had become of the Horde, but no real guilt about actively helping genocide..

"Active participant" when he was participating, "traitor" when he stops participating and leaves. He can't catch a break.

And we had a decent length movie dedicated to that "real guilt" so IDK what you're talking about there.

[Amathricus]

I've been Horde since 2007, minus a short stint during Legion to play with a friend. I've always liked and respected Saurfang as a character and hero of the Horde. However, his constant "muh honour' in BFA started to get very tired, plus I've always been a die hard Sylvanas fan. Even with this cartoonish supervillain thing they've got going on. I was sad when they killed him off at the finish of BFA, but with the context of SL being the Afterlife, we may yet see him again anyway.

[rogueMatthias]

IMO, They should have had him horrified with what Sylvanas was going to do, cleave her guards away and challenge her to mak'gora to stop her, then she just arrests him instead and burns down the tree. The rest of the story could play out exactly the same but Alliance take him from the Horde dungeon rather than him trying to do death-by-cop with the Alliance. IT would have made it a lot easier for many Horde (and even Alliance) players to get behind him.

[geco]

IMO, They should have had him horrified with what Sylvanas was going to do, cleave her guards away and challenge her to mak'gora to stop her, then she just arrests him instead and burns down the tree. The rest of the story could play out exactly the same but Alliance take him from the Horde dungeon rather than him trying to do death-by-cop with the Alliance. IT would have made it a lot easier for many Horde (and even Alliance) players to get behind him.

There will be the Honor of the Horde locked up by Sylvanas. And not the cowards of the Horde who will not stand up to their mistakes or consequences.

[Gorsameth]

I like Saurfang for what he was prior to BfA butchering his character.

The Saurfang I remember is the Supreme Commander of the Might of kalimdor, singlehandedly holding the gates of An'Qiraj (the Nelf druids standing just offscreen healing him don't count )

[geco]

I dont understand how people cant like a character that eventually has the courage to stand up against his own for what he knows is right. Same goes for Baine, great characters, the best horde characters are the ones that show their streak of honor and morality, not the ones who are maniacs and looking for blood at every corner.

Where does it say around here that people don't like Voljin?

[qwerty123456]

I like him for the most part. What I don't like is Blizzard having him tell Garrosh he would end him then not so WoD can happen then having him seeing an even more evil female Garrosh and not attempting to stop her right away. Should have had him try to stop Sylvanas right away or had Sylvanas send him on some mission where he didn't find out about her till towards the end of BFA where he sides with the rebels then dies the same way.

[Gorsameth]

I dont understand how people cant like a character that eventually has the courage to stand up against his own for what he knows is right. Same goes for Baine, great characters, the best horde characters are the ones that show their streak of honor and morality, not the ones who are maniacs and looking for blood at every corner.

Problem is he already did that several times before. He already faced his own demons for what he did while under the influence of the demon blood and the fall of Garrosh.
There was no reason why Saurfang didn't challenge Sylvanas from the start.

[geco]

Where did I say people don't like voljin?

Voljin is the one who confronts his people because they were doing the wrong things and Caien.

Varock starts crying in a corner and Baien agrees with a genocide from a population that had surrendered.

[Powerogue]

no one having any issue with Anduin freeing the second most important figure in the war plan there except for Sylvanas and his excessive amount of focus and lionization, down to Anduin praising at his funeral does more damage to the night elves than any number of scenes of Tyrande jobbing.

I'll actually strongly defend those scenes. For one, the alliance needed a significant role in the story as well. Even with all of this we still had the memes of "The war between the horde and the horde is ramping up...and the alliance is there too." It gave Anduin a hopeful, impactful yet questionable decision that did in fact have long lasting consequences. He took a risky gamble that ultimately paved the way to ending the war, but the night elves are not so eager to hold hands and sing kumbaya, as we've seen the consequences both shape the night elves more towards savagery and independence (welcome IMO even if they were punching bags for a bit to get there).

I wanted more alliance conflict to help balance out the Horde conflict, and we've gotten it. My favorite part to date being in Shadows Rising. Most of my investment in SL's story going forward is due to these actions of Sylvanas, Anduin, and Tyrande in BFA and where they're headed. We wouldn't be here without Anduin freeing Saurfang.

[geco]

Good for Voljin.

Different characters display different levels of bravery/different breaking points. Some are complicit only to a point. Like you can use any number of IRL analogies, nazi's that were complicit until a point when they had enough of it and became 'traitors'

I find them interesting characters.

I agree to your point.

The problem is that Blizzard wanted to sell us that Varock represents Honor.
Varock does not represent the Honor Varock is an old warrior lost and confused.
Baien is not the heart of the Horde either. Baien is a young man who does not yet have the strength, the courage, or the power to do the right thing.

If Blizzard hadn't tried to sell a hooligan they'd be lovable. But they are not.

I'll actually strongly defend those scenes. For one, the alliance needed a significant role in the story as well. Even with all of this we still had the memes of "The war between the horde and the horde is ramping up...and the alliance is there too." It gave Anduin a hopeful, impactful yet questionable decision that did in fact have long lasting consequences. He took a risky gamble that ultimately paved the way to ending the war, but the night elves are not so eager to hold hands and sing kumbaya, as we've seen the consequences both shape the night elves more towards savagery and independence (welcome IMO even if they were punching bags for a bit to get there).

Yes. but no.
Because everything you say is what can be understood but not what happens.
We do not see any Kaldorei react to Anduin calling a hero who planned a genocide against his people. Nor do any Horde praise Anduin for seeing Varock as a hero.

In the end the war between the Horde and the Horde ended and Anduin is there to speak.

[Aresk]

I mained Horde from 1.9 through 7.1, and my thoughts on Saurfang were that he was an okay example of an orc when he made his rare appearance in Borrean Tundra, Icecrown Citadel, and Siege of Orgrimmar. Never really gave him much more of a thought beyond that.

I swapped to Alliance 7.3.5-present, though I still played both sides in BfA (and both loyalist and rebel storylines for the Horde), and for the guy who nearly murdered Malfurion, was instrumental in the burning of Teldrassil, and led the sacking of Stormwind during the first war, Saurfang sure gets a lot of love from the Alliance. With regards to the Horde, I mind him a lot less, though his melancholy during the Battle for Lordaeron through his release from Stormwind seemed like it was just there to buy the expansion time to tell other stories before ultimately removing the faction war from the narrative at the Battle for Orgrimmar (which honestly, aside from Rastakhan's death, the faction war didn't really affect the setting much at all--most of the threads it wrapped up were also introduced by it, and everything that happened outside the War Campaign could've just as easily occurred in a cold war scenario like in Vanilla). My biggest issue with him from a Horde standpoint was that they used him to tell a mostly pointless narrative and then killed him off, removing one more cultural orc from the narrative, leaving us with only a few others who can speak to the Horde as a whole (Eitrigg, Nazgrel, and Drek'thar are the three others that come most readily to mind). As such, I mostly just have a bitter feeling when dwelling on Saurfang at this point: fine in small doses, but I wouldn't want a large chunk of that again.

[MrKnubbles]

I play both and I like Saurfang. I thought he was a great character for BfA. I hate Sylvanas though.

[geco]

If Saurfang stands up to Sylvanas early on he just dies, he knows that, she has the support of the horde, and shes far more powerful than he is, so why die for nothing. He bides his time, then leads a rebellion, why do people not see the honor. Ultimately, whatever happened pre-rebellion is cancelled out, ultimately he stands up for what he believes in and he makes the ultimate sacrifice for it.

Reminds me why we rebelled against Sylvanas?
Why did Baien do something stupid and suddenly everyone sided with him?
In the end under the logic of WoW it was Varock revealed that something similar was going to happen.

imagine all the revelry starts with Jaina's brother being undead.
Vs a whole society of civilians being burned alive.

The history of BFA falls contradicts.

....

Emphasize what I said. The problem is that he wants to sell me as "the honorable" and "the heart of the Horde" when neither of those two are those things.

[Powerogue]

Yes. but no.
Because everything you say is what can be understood but not what happens.
We do not see any Kaldorei react to Anduin calling a hero who planned a genocide against his people. Nor do any Horde praise Anduin for seeing Varock as a hero.

In the end the war between the Horde and the Horde ended and Anduin is there to speak.

Well here's in Shadows Rising during the meeting with the Horde leaders where they address Saurfang's role. While the night elves don't explicitly say the words "we are mad at Anduin for his actions in BFA." They ignore all his calls, and the meeting with the Horde goes less than swimmingly.

Addressed through implications and attitudes towards groups is still addressed, even if we're working with some level of headcanon.

[geco]

Okay, but again you cant ignore a literal fact. The definition of courage is doing something that you fear, but you do it anyway.

E.g.

A soldier running out into a hailstorm of bullets to grab his injured buddy and try to save his life. Hes terrified, he might get shot, he might not even be thinking about the danger in the moment, but the truth is, he was shitting himself on the landing craft like everyone else, but he does it because he IS courageous.

Baine and Saurfang stand up to certain death and torture for their beliefs. Nothing that happened before that changes that fact.

The point is that BFA is the soldier who does not run to save his ally.
But then if he runs to save a Kitten.

Well here's in Shadows Rising during the meeting with the Horde leaders where they address Saurfang's role. While the night elves don't explicitly say the words "we are mad at Anduin for his actions in BFA." They ignore all his calls, and the meeting with the Horde goes less than swimmingly.

Addressed through implications and attitudes towards groups is still addressed, even if we're working with some level of headcanon.

That's great. but there is a problem. Tyrande has not responded to Anduin since before the Final Patch. In the final fight of Varock vs Sylvanas Tyrande is not about not answering his letters.