Has the light abandoned bolvar, yet?

[Ohvul]

In wotlk his holding onto the light is what allowed him to resist Arthas. Then when Arthas is slain bolvar takes up the helm, not necessarily an action against the light? Tirion was going to wear the helm, but bolvar insists he should. Given they both view one wearing the helm as a necessity I dont really think this would be the point where the light would completely turn its back on whoever wears the helm (is the light that which allowed Arthas to keep some sense of control after becoming LK?)

What then happens when the helm is removed? Can bolvar still call on the light? Are we approaching a scenario where his return to the light saves us / anduin? The lack of other high ranking paladins presence in the shadowlands disturbs the logical flow the story should be going imo, id think we'd have more anti death focused individuals with us, but so far we are meeting them already here; uther and mograine.

[Razion]

Frostmourne is what took Arthas' soul and made him Undead, not the Helm.

Bolvar may have been psychically linked to the Scourge and the other dominators of the Helm, but he was still alive/perpetually not dying through the flames of Alexstrasza.

Being Undead wouldn't cut him off from the Light, anyway. Hell, Arthas used it with Frostmourne for a while before being a DK proper, didn't he?

The Light seems to have a bone to pick with Revendreth to some extent, and maybe The Lich King to the extent the Crusade was involved, but no Naaru intervened in the war in Northrend... whatever that means.

I personally think The Light can't be picky when it comes to allies - hell, they took on a Dreadlord. I think maybe all they're concerned with is spreading life everywhere... (or forced peace, or adhering to certain three virtues Paladins uphold) and if Bolvar can help, and be an enemy of death and the Void, he would have a place at their side.

The Light doesn't care about morals, like with the Scarlets... faith is all that is needed to call upon the Light. Getting cut off to me is more a case of personal lack of faith - believing someone can take your rank and power, believing you can be ex-communicated from the church, etc.

[aceperson]

i just want to clarify a couple things.

1. tirion and bolvar didn't "view" it as a necessity. the ghost of teraness menethil flat out told tirion that the undead always needed a jailer or they would overtake the world and bolvar was sitting on the throne and overheard.

2. the light answers literally anyone with enough conviction. that's why forsaken can be priests. it's also the explanation as to why the scarlet crusade could wield the light even though their methods were very cruel.

3. the lights power is quote "trifling" compared to what is already in the shadowlands. trifling is specifically used in the necrolord campaign by a kyrian pillar/figurehead/whatever they are called. this is backed up by the first ashbringer, alexandros mograine, doesn't use the light despite being one of the figureheads for the zone. i don't think the light could affect anduin in the slightest. uther also doesn't use the light from what we've seen so far.

[Ohvul]

2. the light answers literally anyone with enough conviction. that's why forsaken can be priests. it's also the explanation as to why the scarlet crusade could wield the light even though their methods were very cruel.

3. the lights power is quote "trifling" compared to what is already in the shadowlands. trifling is specifically used in the necrolord campaign by a kyrian pillar/figurehead/whatever they are called. this is backed up by the first ashbringer, alexandros mograine, doesn't use the light despite being one of the figureheads for the zone. i don't think the light could affect anduin in the slightest. uther also doesn't use the light from what we've seen so far.

3. Am I misremembering something similar being said about the frozen throne? I'm trying to find the quote/ line that references the frozen throne as an area completely forsaken from the light, and we all know what tirion managed to do up there with the light. Maybe the shadowlands are similar and a strong enough call to the light is what is necessary to open a "hole" for other light users?

2. It seems odd why bolvar completely ignores it then, even on azeroth. Do you think Illidan turning down xera / the lights gift on argus relates to our current story arc more than we think? He acts as not needing the light, chaos will jail chaos, bolvar seemingly does the same showcased in the dk campaign and his fight with sylvanas, trying the whole death to counter death thing. I'm not saying Illidan will be apart of shadowlands just the two storylines have similarities in methods and maybe they both don't turn out the same

[aceperson]

it's likely just the bad writing going on these days. for some reason the writing team can come up with amazing, grandiose ideas but just fail horribly on the minor details. one example being that the kyrian ferry ALL souls to oribos and in the kyrian campaign, it is brought up about how the kyrian see all the souls going to the maw and yet they just keep getting souls to dump into the maw.

i really wish i had a satisfying answer but i just don't think there is one.

[Zuben]

Being Undead wouldn't cut him off from the Light, anyway. Hell, Arthas used it with Frostmourne for a while before being a DK proper, didn't he?

In Warcraft 3 he did, but the book retconned that. He tries to summon the Light to aid him against the Scourge overrunning his forces in Northrend, but by that point it has already abandoned him; not so much as a spark comes off it. Be that the Light's sentient decision or Arthas lacking true faith due to his recent experiences, I don't know, but at that moment he was basically just a warrior with a two-handed mace. That's why he felt Frostmourne was necessary to save his forces (if I recall correctly Muradin had even managed to convince him to abandon the search before their camp was assaulted). Though even after he grabs it he doesn't immediately become DK, but uses Frostmourne-enhanced swordsmanship (I guess? The book is vague about that, describing a feel of power, how the sword feels right or something).

You're not wrong about undead being able to wield the Light, though. It's just that they rarely do since it makes them feel the rot and damage of their corporeal body and is therefore immensely painful to use; lore-wise Forsaken priests are said to be shadow-focused. Only known instance, I believe, is Sir Zeliek, who had the control of his mind but not his body; using the Light probably hurt him a lot, but since he wasn't in control it didn't matter. I don't think this applies to Bolvar, though, because he's a special case.

[Houle]

The Light seems to have a bone to pick with Revendreth to some extent, and maybe The Lich King to the extent the Crusade was involved, but no Naaru intervened in the war in Northrend... whatever that means.

the naaru didnt show up during WotLK because this whole bullshit of "cosmic forces", where every single one has a hierarchy and a special agenda, didnt exist back then.

[Soon-TM]

the naaru didnt show up during WotLK because this whole bullshit of "cosmic forces", where every single one has a hierarchy and a special agenda, didnt exist back then.

Well, the Naaru had already been introduced in BC, so they could have had a minor role in WotLK as well. But you are right, no one at the time seemed to have thought on anything even remotely close to this "cosmic forces" mumbo jumbo - least of all Metzen.

[Houle]

Well, the Naaru had already been introduced in BC, so they could have had a minor role in WotLK as well. But you are right, no one at the time seemed to have thought on anything even remotely close to this "cosmic forces" mumbo jumbo - least of all Metzen.

id actually love to hear metzens real thoughts on the current "lore" (if one can even call it that). i cant imagine that he likes what theyve done to his story.

[BrintoSFJ]

I thought it was the flame of life that allowed him to resist the domination of death?

[Dzonathan]

id actually love to hear metzens real thoughts on the current "lore" (if one can even call it that). i cant imagine that he likes what theyve done to his story.

He wouldn't have much right to complain because he and his team were just as guilty.

Initially the highest bad was Sargeras in WC2 and he was only known as some Demon Lord.
Then in WC3 he was retconned to be a Fallen Titan who leads the Burning Legion.
Then we had 5 old gods.
Then they were fashioned to be something that would make Sargeras beg for mercy.
Then we had only 4 old gods.
Then he was supposedly corrupted by Natherizm

And now it turns out Sargeras likely already killed an old god or 2 by cutting a planet in half with a world soul that was corrupted.
And he wasn't corrupted by Natherizm as much as falliing into cynical nihilism after making galactic calculations and coming to conclusion that Void Titans already exist and the universe is lost.

If there's any take away from all this then it's the fact that a story will be eventually ruined for the sake of keeping the franchise going unless said story is planned long-term.

[Hellobolis]

i find it more likely that bolvar has abandoned the light, than the other way around. either because he thinks his lich king powers are much cooler, or because he believes himself no longer worthy. which then later allows him to rediscover it.

kinda doubt they'll go that way with him though, hes not exactly known for his relationship with the light in the first place. honestly didn't even know he was a paladin until just now, and the word "light" doesn't appear once on his wowpedia.

[Nnyco]

The light clearly doesnt care who sides with em aslong as they belive in the light.

[Powerogue]

We saw how cruel and heartless he was while still influenced by the Helm of Domination, but (in my opinion, tragically) losing the helm he seems to have regained his full will and heroic nature.

I'm not under the impression he was ever a paladin, I thought he was a warrior, but he's at least as free willed as any other death knight now.

[huth]

If there's any take away from all this then it's the fact that a story will be eventually ruined for the sake of keeping the franchise going unless said story is planned long-term.

Which was really inevitable since they never expected it to be anywhere even remotely as successfull as it became, and people will complain about it whether or not they make any further changes at this point.

[Soon-TM]

Has the Light abandoned Bolvar? I don't think he even was actually a paladin to begin with, but even if he was, the powers he used during his tenure as LK (including his fight against Suevanas) don't seem exactly Light-based to me.

And once the Light abandons someone, it takes a long, long time of atonement and purification in order to gain its favour back. Sure, this last part is from the non canon RPG, but it would be extremely jarring if the guy who was using a full assortment of DK skills would suddenly start casting holy spells.

[Thundering]

Has the Light abandoned Bolvar? I don't think he even was actually a paladin to begin with, but even if he was, the powers he used during his tenure as LK (including his fight against Suevanas) don't seem exactly Light-based to me.

And once the Light abandons someone, it takes a long, long time of atonement and purification in order to gain its favour back. Sure, this last part is from the non canon RPG, but it would be extremely jarring if the guy who was using a full assortment of DK skills would suddenly start casting holy spells.

He was a protection paladin you can see it in the wrath gate cinematic where he is using holy shield.

Sadly seems to have lost all good paladins since they keep killing them off and misstreating their lore, not to mention never introducing any new ones.

[Accendor]

Someone might already have mentioned it, but the light is not a force of "good", it is simply a force that works on faith. It can heal wounds but also inflict them. If it would act as a "morale compass" of some sorts, the scarlet crusade would not exist.