If they made a new class in the future, what would it be?

[Teriz]

We saw them use a host of non-Necromantic abilities like dropping meteors and using holy magic. I don't think NPCs are a solid way to establish what Player Classes can or can not do.

I think we're missing the point here.

The point is that we had Death Knights other than the Lich King utilizing DK abilities.

We had Demon Hunters other than Illidan utilizing DH abilities.

We have never seen a Dark Ranger other than Sylvanas use Banshee abilities. All other Dark Rangers have simply been undead Hunters using shadow-based arrows.

And Hunters have zero shadow magic abilities now.

But they had Shadow-based abilities for years, so Hunters having shadow abilities is not unheard of. Further, Undead and Void Elf hunters can imbue their attacks with Shadow-based damage. Thus, a Forsaken Hunter can shoot shadow-empowered arrows and tame undead beasts from the start. Void Elf Hunters can also imbue their attacks with Shadow magic and have a host of Shadow abilities like Shadow port.

In the end, if the only real difference between a Hunter and a Dark Ranger is one shoots shadow arrows and one doesn't, we really don't have much of a class to discuss here.

[Triceron]

Theres also ignoring that Blizzard is perfectly fine with changing or expanding lore to accomodate expanding what classes can do,

I find some people here are more interested in proving someone's opinion wrong and inserting their own 'right' opinion more than having an open and healthy discussion about possible outcomes. To be frank, there should be no one using lore to shut down any future possibilities. Too many people treat the lore like laws that can't be changed, when lore has always been used to explain game design mechanics into the world.

All the lore we have about Arthas betraying the Death Knights and the whole consecrated ground and redeeming the Ashbringer? It's all glorified flavour text for how a Death Knight that is loyal to Arthas would be playable in the Alliance and Horde.

[Teriz]

Theres also ignoring that Blizzard is perfectly fine with changing or expanding lore to accomodate expanding what classes can do, saying a Dark Rangers class can't be banshee or have banshee like powers because only Sylvanas is defined as actually having been a banshee inhabiting a mortal body is like saying Death Knights could only be races that also access have the paladin class because WC3 defined Death Knights as being fallen paladins in their description (and their abilities are evil versions of the paladin units), pretty much every Death Knight of note prior to WoLK is a former paladin (with the exception of baron rivendare), even the non-canon RPG had one of the prerequestites for the Death Knight prestige class be having prior levels in the paladin class (except in "rare circumstances")

It isn't like that at all.

The Lich King being able to raise champions of any race is a far easier to get around than the convoluted origin story of Sylvanas, which has several lore barriers in place that prevents it from being a wide spread phenomenon. Blizzard reinforces the rarity of Sylvanas' origin by not giving her the ability to fuse banshees into the bodies of undead elven rangers. She has NEVER been shown to do this, and with her being in the Shadowlands, it's rather apparent that she's NEVER going to be able to do it.

[Triceron]

We have never seen a Dark Ranger other than Sylvanas use Banshee abilities. All other Dark Rangers have simply been undead Hunters using shadow-based arrows.

Except the variants that Dark Ranger NPCs use are different from the Hunter ones.

They actually use Curses and Banshee wailing effects. That implies a mastery of dark magic that Hunters do not have.

But they had Shadow-based abilities for years, so Hunters having shadow abilities is not unheard of. Further, Undead and Void Elf hunters can imbue their attacks with Shadow-based damage. Thus, a Forsaken Hunter can shoot shadow-empowered arrows and tame undead beasts from the start. Void Elf Hunters can also imbue their attacks with Shadow magic and have a host of Shadow abilities like Shadow port.

Goblin Hunters and Shamans use technology in their classes, and have technology as a part of their racials. I'd still want to see a Tinker class and not simply assume that all Tech-related abilities would be ingrained in the Hunter and Shaman class just because we have seen examples of tech being employed by both at varying degrees.

I mean, if what you say is true, then why do you have a problem with Dark Ranger being playable if you're completely comfortable with RPing your Void Elf Hunter as a Dark Ranger? I don't see how Blizzard making a class out of it would impact your headcanon negatively. It actually opens up a new class for you to explore.

It's not even taking any abilities away from the Hunter since the Hunter hasn't had those abilities for literally years now.

In the end, if the only real difference between a Hunter and a Dark Ranger is one shoots shadow arrows and one doesn't, we really don't have much of a class to discuss here.

To an RPer, you'd be absolutely right. You can absolutely headcanon that they are one and the same thing, just like when you decided Demon Hunters were just melee Warlocks and that we didn't need a Demon Hunter class. I mean, you weren't wrong about that. Blizzard just disagrees with your perspective.

[Teriz]

Except the variants that Dark Ranger NPCs use are different from the Hunter ones.

They actually use Curses and Banshee wailing effects. That implies a mastery of dark magic that Hunters do not have.

Can you link to some examples?

Goblin Hunters and Shamans use technology in their classes, and have technology as a part of their racials. I'd still want to see a Tinker class and not simply assume that all Tech-related abilities would be ingrained in the Hunter and Shaman class just because we have seen examples of tech being employed by both at varying degrees.

Okay, but you're making the implication that the only difference between a Hunter and a Dark Ranger (Hunter) is the use of Shadow magic. This is no different than a Shaman and a Dark Shaman, or a Druid and a Nightmare Druid. We're never getting Dark Shaman or Nightmare Druids as separate classes, so why should we expect a Dark Ranger (Hunter) class?

Tinkers are FAR different than Shaman and Hunters, even if those classes get a tech angle from Goblins. However, Dark Rangers are simply not all that different than the existing Hunter class.

[TheRevenantHero]

I think I'm starting to understand what you're saying.

When I said Dark Rangers use Banshee abilities, I was specific about them using Curses and Wailing Arrow that has Banshee-like screaming effects.

You are thinking that I'm saying Dark Rangers share Sylvanas' ability to use Banshee form and turn into a Banshee and fly around and kill people by passing through them. You are mistaken, because I *never* said they can do that or use those abilities.

I don't think a Dark Ranger class needs any of Sylvanas' unique Banshee properties, like flying through people and killing them or flying. You have misunderstood the context of my statements. I am not saying Dark Rangers would ever do this.

I am specifically talking about using Curses and Banshee-like spell effects like Haunting Wave or Wailing Arrow; abilities we've seen in Heroes of the Storm that are making their way into WoW. I am also open to Blizzard allowing them to do more just like how Death Knights were able to use Arthas' unique abilities over time like summoning Sindragosa or using Apocalypse; things that normally Arthas was only known to do. I am not extending this to Dark Rangers canonically all turning into Banshees and flying around; mostly to other abilities we are seeing in the raid patch notes like Death Fog or Banshee's Mark. And if you don't consider abilities like this to be canon, then it doesn't matter if Dark Ranger NPCs/Player Class gets these abilities anyways, right?

Does this make sense?

And that's what I'm saying. Dark rangers in WoW DO NOT have Curses. None of the dark ranger NPCs I looked at had any curse abilities and wailing arrow is literally just black arrow with different flavor text.

Dark rangers are just hunters with like...one necromancy ability sort of with wailing arrow. Even then that's a stretch because it functions exactly like black arrow did.

HotS is utterly irrelevant. So don't use it as an example because it's not a canon Warcraft game. It doesn't matter what spells are in HotS. Unless they have made it into WoW and are applied the way you are claiming they are, it is all conjecture. Right now dark rangers literally are just undead quel'dorei hunters and nothing more.

[Teriz]

HotS is utterly irrelevant. So don't use it as an example because it's not a canon Warcraft game. It doesn't matter what spells are in HotS. Unless they have made it into WoW and are applied the way you are claiming they are, it is all conjecture. Right now dark rangers literally are just undead quel'dorei hunters and nothing more.

To be fair, Sylvanas' HotS abilities (and abilities from other WoW heroes) have been translated into WoW. I would definitely not call HotS irrelevant. Blizzard is clearly pulling from HotS for WoW abilities and concepts.

[Triceron]

And that's what I'm saying. Dark rangers in WoW DO NOT have Curses. None of the dark ranger NPCs I looked at had any curse abilities and wailing arrow is literally just black arrow with different flavor text.

So why wouldn't they use the flavour text of Hunters, if that's the case?

Why does Wailing Arrow have unique flavour text regarding Banshee's wail when even Sylvanas wasn't using this ability up until the 9.1 raid?

Dark rangers are just hunters with like...one necromancy ability sort of with wailing arrow.

So any time you have to say 'are just X with like...' it usually means they aren't what you're actually comparing it to.

Kinda like if I said Pigeons are just like rats with like... wings.

Even then that's a stretch because it functions exactly like black arrow did.

Hunter spell summoned undead pets.

NPC ability creates humanoid skeletons, which works like the original WC3 ability.

Hunters can charm and tame pets. Dark Rangers charm and mind control humanoids. We're talking about completely different functionality. Animals and Beasts are not Humans, and Hunters don't manipulate Humans.

It doesn't matter what spells are in HotS. Unless they have made it into WoW and are applied the way you are claiming they are, it is all conjecture. Right now dark rangers literally are just undead quel'dorei hunters and nothing more.

So why are they able to use Wailing Arrow when Hunters can't? These are abilities from HOTS we're talking about that have made it into WoW. Dark Ranger NPCs have been using Wailing Arrow longer than Sylvanas has in WoW, and now that we see Sylvanas use it in the upcoming raid, we have a direct connection between the NPCs and her using the same abilities that Hunters have never had access to.

You keep saying 'nothing more' but you keep having to correct yourself every time by addressing all the abilities that Hunters don't actually use. That's not 'nothing more', that is something.

I don't even know why you keep saying quel'dorei hunters specifically, since we already have Night Elf and Human Dark Rangers. Do you enjoy lying?

[TheRevenantHero]

[QUOTE=Triceron;53133389]So why wouldn't they use the flavour text of Hunters, if that's the case?

Why does Wailing Arrow have unique flavour text regarding Banshee's wail when even Sylvanas wasn't using this ability up until the 9.1 raid?

[quote]
Dark rangers are just hunters with like...one necromancy ability sort of with wailing arrow.

So any time you have to say 'are just X with like...' it usually means they aren't what you're actually comparing it to.

Kinda like if I said Pigeons are just like rats with like... wings.



Hunter spell summoned undead pets.

NPC ability creates humanoid skeletons, which works like the original WC3 ability.

Hunters can charm and tame pets. Dark Rangers charm and mind control humanoids. We're talking about completely different functionality. Animals and Beasts are not Humans, and Hunters don't manipulate Humans.



So why are they able to use Wailing Arrow when Hunters can't?

Likely to further show they are completely dedicated to Sylvanas or something. I won't claim to know why it's described that way yet functions identically to the hunter's old black arrow spell.

Your comparison is....ridiculous. Dark rangers have nothing unique about them. All of their spells are things hunters can do or have done in the past. There is literally nothing separating them from hunters aside from some flavor text.

Dark rangers no longer have the ability to mind control humanoids. It was an ability in WC3 that didn't make it into WoW. Canon dark rangers now are just like hunters in their abilities.

Hunters lost black arrow because having a necromancy ability just didn't fit the overall theme of hunters iirc. And since dark rangers are undead and the elite guard of Sylvanas, it would make sense they would have a necromancy ability. But that doesn't change the fact that it was a former hunter ability and the rest of dark rangers in WoW are no different to hunters at all.

[Ielenia]

With Sylvanas probably dead after 9.1, there is no longer a source for a banshee-based Dark Ranger in WoW, so it stands to reason that they will continue to hand Dark Ranger abilities to those two classes.

Tell me... isn't that exactly what happened to Illidan? He died in TBC, therefore, by your logic, demon hunter lack a source for demon-based demon hunter in WoW, so it stands to reason they'll continue to hand demon hunter abilities to rogues and priests and warlocks?

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I hate to agree with Teriz but he's right. Sylvanas is the ONLY dark ranger that is a banshee. All other dark rangers are just undead quel'dorei hunters. They don't have a single banshee ability. Sylvanas is a unique case that no other character shares in any way.

Demon hunters didnt have horns or wings before Legion. Death Knights had no frost or blood powers before WotLK.

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For starters, they’re nothing more than an evil version of the Hunter class.

One: that's just your subjective opinion, not fact.
Two: that logic also applies to DKs: they're evil versions of paladins.

[datguy81]

Tell me... isn't that exactly what happened to Illidan? He died in TBC, therefore, by your logic, demon hunter lack a source for demon-based demon hunter in WoW, so it stands to reason they'll continue to hand demon hunter abilities to rogues and priests and warlocks?
.

Back when he said Demon Hunter’s would never be added to the game.

[TheRevenantHero]

Tell me... isn't that exactly what happened to Illidan? He died in TBC, therefore, by your logic, demon hunter lack a source for demon-based demon hunter in WoW, so it stands to reason they'll continue to hand demon hunter abilities to rogues and priests and warlocks?

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Demon hunters didnt have horns or wings before Legion. Death Knights had no frost or blood powers before WotLK.

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One: that's just your subjective opinion, not fact.
Two: that logic also applies to DKs: they're evil versions of paladins.

Demon hunters are charged with fel energy, something established in the lore well before the class was introduced as something that mutates you to have more demonic features so the addition of horns and wings makes perfect sense. I got nothing when it comes to DK because I still understand that entirely.

Meanwhile, dark rangers in WoW are just hunters. There just isn't enough unique about them to justify a class. Maybe a hunter spec but certainly not an entire class.

[Triceron]

Okay, but you're making the implication that the only difference between a Hunter and a Dark Ranger (Hunter) is the use of Shadow magic. This is no different than a Shaman and a Dark Shaman, or a Druid and a Nightmare Druid. We're never getting Dark Shaman or Nightmare Druids as separate classes, so why should we expect a Dark Ranger (Hunter) class?

Dark Shaman and Nightmare Druids weren't their own archetype Hero in WC3 with their own associated abilities.

I mean if by Dark Shaman you were talking about Shadow Hunter, I would argue that yes we have a case where a Shadow Hunter could possibly be its own class, because its whole theme hasn't been completely absorbed into the Shaman class. Some abilities have been used, but it doesn't mean the entire theme or class identity has.

And we're discussing on the basis of possibility. Even as unlikely as it ever would have been for Demon Hunters to be playable, I still argued in favour of them because of possibility. Blizzard never considered them off the table, so why should we? You thought we were never getting a playable Demon Hunter either, and if we go by your standards then we'd all be wrong about Dark Shaman, Shadow Hunters and Nightmare Druids all the same.

Blizzard is the one that decides what gets made and what doesn't. Their 'lack of actions' doesn't imply that a class isn't going to be made, otherwise we'd have plenty of fuel to say Tinker is never going to be playable since it's missed so many chances to be added in the game and has even been passed up for the Demon Hunter.

Tinkers are FAR different than Shaman and Hunters, even if those classes get a tech angle from Goblins. However, Dark Rangers are simply not all that different than the existing Hunter class.

Sure, but one could say we will never have playable Tinkers too and argue that all the abilities can just go to Hunters and Shaman, and use the same bad-faith examples that one would use to push all the Tinker's themes into Goblin and Gnome racial attributes rather than addressing them as Class themes.

What's the difference between saying Dark Rangers are Void Elf Hunters using Void racials and saying Tinkers are just Goblin Hunters/Shamans with Engineering?

Dark Shaman and Nightmare Druid is an extension of a bad faith argument. We have Mages and "Dark Mages" in the form of Warlocks. We have Paladins and "Dark Paladins" in the form of Death Knights. Considering the Dark Ranger is standard Hero from WC3, it's pretty clear why anyone should expect a Dark Ranger class. It's not a 'Dark Hunter', it's a Dark Ranger.

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Dark rangers no longer have the ability to mind control humanoids. It was an ability in WC3 that didn't make it into WoW. Canon dark rangers now are just like hunters in their abilities.

So how do you explain this? That they no longer have the ability, or that they never had it in the first place? Can you give me the canonical answer to this, because I'm not aware that Blizzard ever gave any official word on the matter.

Hunters lost black arrow because having a necromancy ability just didn't fit the overall theme of hunters iirc. And since dark rangers are undead and the elite guard of Sylvanas, it would make sense they would have a necromancy ability. But that doesn't change the fact that it was a former hunter ability and the rest of dark rangers in WoW are no different to hunters at all.

So how can you say they are no different to hunters, that they use Necromancy and still use Necromancy, and that hunters no longer use Necromancy because it didn't fit the overall theme?

Do you hear yourself?

In the lore, Warlocks are just Mages who use dark magic. You realize that there's literally zero difference between a Mage and a Warlock except the use of Fel magic, right? Any Mage can use Necromancy and Fel magic if they wanted to. They are fully capable of it. The reason they do not use dark magic is because it *does not fit the theme of the class*. And you know what? We have different names for Mages who are themed on the use of Dark Magic. Warlocks and Necromancers.

Dark Rangers aren't survivalists of the wilderness and beast tamers. Dark Rangers are ranged assassins who use shadowy magic and necromancy to manipulate their opponents. They're arguably more like Rogues than they are Hunters, thematically.

[Teriz]

Tell me... isn't that exactly what happened to Illidan? He died in TBC, therefore, by your logic, demon hunter lack a source for demon-based demon hunter in WoW, so it stands to reason they'll continue to hand demon hunter abilities to rogues and priests and warlocks?

No, because Illidan was able to produce Demon Hunters that were like him. Sylvanas has never been able to produce another banshee powered Dark Ranger, and as far as we know, she's the only banshee-powered DR in existence.

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One: that's just your subjective opinion, not fact.

Okay, then what is the difference between a Hunter and a standard Dark Ranger?

Two: that logic also applies to DKs: they're evil versions of paladins.

The difference is that Blizzard was able to shift the DK from simply being an evil version of the Paladin class into WoW's Necromancer class.

[Triceron]

Okay, then what is the difference between a Hunter and a standard Dark Ranger?

The difference is that Blizzard was able to shift the DK DR from simply being an evil version of the Paladin Hunter class into WoW's Necromancer Shadowy Ranged Assassin class.

I think you answered your own question here.

[TheRevenantHero]

Dark Shaman and Nightmare Druids weren't their own archetype Hero in WC3 with their own associated abilities.

I mean if by Dark Shaman you were talking about Shadow Hunter, I would argue that yes we have a case where a Shadow Hunter could possibly be its own class, because its whole theme hasn't been completely absorbed into the Shaman class. Some abilities have been used, but it doesn't mean the entire theme or class identity has.

And we're discussing on the basis of possibility. Even as unlikely as it ever would have been for Demon Hunters to be playable, I still argued in favour of them because of possibility. Blizzard never considered them off the table, so why should we? You thought we were never getting a playable Demon Hunter either, and if we go by your standards then we'd all be wrong about Dark Shaman, Shadow Hunters and Nightmare Druids all the same.

Blizzard is the one that decides what gets made and what doesn't. Their 'lack of actions' doesn't imply that a class isn't going to be made, otherwise we'd have plenty of fuel to say Tinker is never going to be playable since it's missed so many chances to be added in the game and has even been passed up for the Demon Hunter.



Sure, but one could say we will never have playable Tinkers too and argue that all the abilities can just go to Hunters and Shaman, and use the same bad-faith examples that one would use to push all the Tinker's themes into Goblin and Gnome racial attributes rather than addressing them as Class themes.

What's the difference between saying Dark Rangers are Void Elf Hunters using Void racials and saying Tinkers are just Goblin Hunters/Shamans with Engineering?

Dark Shaman and Nightmare Druid is an extension of a bad faith argument. We have Mages and "Dark Mages" in the form of Warlocks. We have Paladins and "Dark Paladins" in the form of Death Knights. Considering the Dark Ranger is standard Hero from WC3, it's pretty clear why anyone should expect a Dark Ranger class. It's not a 'Dark Hunter', it's a Dark Ranger.

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So how do you explain this? That they no longer have the ability, or that they never had it in the first place? Can you give me the canonical answer to this, because I'm not aware that Blizzard ever gave any official word on the matter.



So how can you say they are no different to hunters, that they use Necromancy and still use Necromancy, and that hunters no longer use Necromancy because it didn't fit the overall theme?

Do you hear yourself?

In the lore, Warlocks are just Mages who use dark magic. You realize that there's literally zero difference between a Mage and a Warlock except the use of Fel magic, right? Any Mage can use Necromancy and Fel magic if they wanted to. They are fully capable of it. The reason they do not use dark magic is because it *does not fit the theme of the class*. And you know what? We have different names for Mages who are themed on the use of Dark Magic. Warlocks and Necromancers.

Dark Rangers aren't survivalists of the wilderness and beast tamers. Dark Rangers are ranged assassins who use shadowy magic and necromancy to manipulate their opponents. They're arguably more like Rogues than they are Hunters, thematically.

The answer is in the fact that there are dark rangers in WoW and never once have they mind controlled anyone. That pretty much shows that aspect of dark rangers wasn't kept when they moved to WoW. Asking for a direct quote about Blizzard saying they don't have the ability anymore is redundant.

They use ONE necromancy oriented spell. Just one. And it functions completely like the hunters old black arrow spell.

As for the class comments, false equivalency. Mages and warlocks actually don't really have overlap when it comes to in game abilities. So that's not a valid argument at all. The point I'm making is that dark ranger are not different enough from hunters to justify an entire class. The current NPCs in game all have present or former hunter abilities. Your comment about mages and warlocks is nothing but a strawman. I haven't been talking about lore. I'm talking about gameplay. Dark rangers are pretty much exactly like hunters from a gameplay mechanics perspective.

[Teriz]

Dark Shaman and Nightmare Druids weren't their own archetype Hero in WC3 with their own associated abilities.

I would argue that it wasn't an archetype, it was merely an evil archer with disparate abilities. Drain Life and Black Arrow really don't gel together in an ability set.

I mean if by Dark Shaman you were talking about Shadow Hunter, I would argue that yes we have a case where a Shadow Hunter could possibly be its own class, because its whole theme hasn't been completely absorbed into the Shaman class. Some abilities have been used, but it doesn't mean the entire theme or class identity has.

No, I mean Dark Shaman;

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Kor%27kron_Dark_Shaman

Which are simply "evil" or "corrupted" Shaman. Just like Dark Rangers are just evil or corrupted Hunters.

What's the difference between saying Dark Rangers are Void Elf Hunters using Void racials and saying Tinkers are just Goblin Hunters/Shamans with Engineering?

Because the Tinker's WC3 and HotS abilities make the concept far different than the Shaman or the Hunter class. You can apply Withering Fire, Black Arrow, or Wailing Arrow to the Hunter class and it's not going to fundamentally change the class.

Dark Shaman and Nightmare Druid is an extension of a bad faith argument. We have Mages and "Dark Mages" in the form of Warlocks. We have Paladins and "Dark Paladins" in the form of Death Knights. Considering the Dark Ranger is standard Hero from WC3, it's pretty clear why anyone should expect a Dark Ranger class. It's not a 'Dark Hunter', it's a Dark Ranger.

But Paladins and Death Knights are two fundamentally different concepts. Death Knights are not simply "dark" versions of Paladins, and Warlocks are not simply dark versions of Mages. Dark Rangers however are simply shadow-based abilities being applied to the Hunter class. Paladins never had Necromantic abilities, Mages never had demonic pets. Hunters have had Black Arrow.

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I think you answered your own question here.

So it's a Rogue?

[Ielenia]

Meanwhile, dark rangers in WoW are just hunters. There just isn't enough unique about them to justify a class. Maybe a hunter spec but certainly not an entire class.

Not really. They have abilities of their own. And their concept is wholly different and separate from the hunter class. Saying both are the same, is like saying warriors and paladins are the same.

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Okay, then what is the difference between a Hunter and a standard Dark Ranger?

Necromancy and mind-manipulating powers, just off the top of my head.

The difference is that Blizzard was able to shift the DK from simply being an evil version of the Paladin class into WoW's Necromancer class.

I'll remind you that the DK was still portrayed as "evil paladin" in the expansion's reveal trailer. Also, what stops Blizzard from expanding the dark ranger concept as well?

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So it's a Rogue?

I didn't know rogues were a ranged class?

[Triceron]

The answer is in the fact that there are dark rangers in WoW and never once have they mind controlled anyone. That pretty much shows that aspect of dark rangers wasn't kept when they moved to WoW. Asking for a direct quote about Blizzard saying they don't have the ability anymore is redundant.

Just because I've never seen any female Ogres in WoW doesn't mean female Ogres don't exist.

They use ONE necromancy oriented spell. Just one. And it functions completely like the hunters old black arrow spell.

Demon Hunters had only one Fel-based ability with Metamorphosis and it functions completely like Warlocks old Metamorphosis spell too.

In WoW, the Demon Hunter NPCs otherwise functioned exactly the same as Rogues. They were literally Rogues with some having a Metamorphosis ability.

Illidan was the only Demon Hunter shown to have more fel-related abilities, and it could be argued that he was unique too. Once Warlocks had Green Fire quest available and Ebonlocke explained that the Warlocks simply learned Metamorphosis through observing Illidan, that threw into question how the Demon Hunters actually used Metamorphosis too, and whether a ritual sacrifice was even necessary or if they're literally just Rogues who learned Metamorphosis through observation, the way Warlocks could.

I mean, I heard this argument ALL THE TIME back when Demon Hunters were not playable yet.

As for the class comments, false equivalency. Mages and warlocks actually don't really have overlap when it comes to in game abilities.

That's because they're intentionally designed without any crossover.

If we have a Dark Ranger class, you can bet your ass that there would not be any overlap either.

That's the whole point of bringing up Dark Rangers. If Blizzard wanted to design a separate class with no overlap, they *COULD* design one that DOES use Mind Control and Banshee abilities.

Think about it this way - if you were Blizzard and you had to design the Demon Hunter class, would you say 'We can't add Eyebeams and a Tanking Demon Form because we never shown any Demon Hunter NPCs using this back in TBC'? It's a backwards way of thinking. Just because it hasn't been shown doesn't mean it can't be created, added or retconned into the game. We NEVER had a Demon Hunter using Wing Glide other than Illidan, yet they ADDED this ability to all Demon Hunters even if they don't permanently have wings. Do you think they had to stop and think 'We can't add this ability because all our Demon Hunter NPCs don't have wings'?

If it didn't stop Blizzard, why exactly are you using it as some kind of rule? We'd never seen a Demon Hunter outside of Demon Form with any wings. We'd never seen a Dark Ranger using any type of mind control. Is this canonical evidence that Blizzard can never add these to a Player Class or to NPCs in the future? Please tell me.

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I would argue that it wasn't an archetype, it was merely an evil archer with disparate abilities. Drain Life and Black Arrow really don't gel together in an ability set.

WC3 latest patches actually addressed this.

Drain Life now applies Black Arrow debuff if you have one point in it.

No, I mean Dark Shaman;

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Kor%27kron_Dark_Shaman

Which are simply "evil" or "corrupted" Shaman. Just like Dark Rangers are just evil or corrupted Hunters.

Are the Dark Shaman using Necromancy? If not, I don't understand how they are anything like Dark Rangers.

Necromancy has been the difference between multiple types of classes. There's a reason Necromancer is a different archetype from a Mage, and a Death Knight is a different archetype from a Paladin or Warrior. And in the case of a DK, they're literally just evil or corrupted Paladins that Blizzard chose and made into its own class.

Because the Tinker's WC3 and HotS abilities make the concept far different than the Shaman or the Hunter class. You can apply Withering Fire, Black Arrow, or Wailing Arrow to the Hunter class and it's not going to fundamentally change the class.

If we're talking about HOTS abilities, then it's just as plausible to have them enter the Engineering profession as gadgets and explosives. It's not going to fundamentally change any class either.

But Paladins and Death Knights are two fundamentally different concepts. Death Knights are not simply "dark" versions of Paladins

Sure they were.

"These renegade Paladins succumbed to bitter hatred over the course of their grueling quest. When they finally reached Ner'zhul's icy fortress in Northrend they had become dark and brooding. The Lich King offered them untold power in exchange for their services and loyalty. The weary, vengeful warriors accepted his dark pact, and although they retained their humanity, their twisted souls were bound to his evil will for all time. Bestowed with black, vampiric Runeblades and shadowy steeds, Death Knights serve as the Scourge's mightiest generals."

It's literally what the WC3 Death Knight concept is. An evil and corrupted Paladin with dark, mirrored abilities.

The only reason you can't argue against the Death Knight is because it's already in the game, just like you've stopped arguing about the Demon Hunter having no room in the game and its themes all being used by the Warlock since we have it in the game now.

I mean, can we really say you've changed your tune at all for the better? No. You're still making the same bad faith arguments, and the only thing you've learned is being more careful in applying that bad faith in more deceptive ways. That's all.

By all means, the Demon Hunter should have removed any shadow of a doubt that Blizzard is capable of putting in a class that has no unique theme of its own, that shares 90% of its mechanics and roles with existing classes, and still have it playable as a class.

I don't think they would want to do this with the Dark Ranger, but at the same time I don't think they're going to push all their abilities onto the Hunter either. They can leave it absolutely neutral, just like they haven't added more Blademaster abilities to Warriors or Warden abilities to Rogues. They don't have to make a Blademaster or Warden class, but it doesn't mean Warriors and Rogues would be taking the rest of their abilities either.

[Teriz]

Necromancy and mind-manipulating powers, just off the top of my head.

Name some Necromancy abilities that Dark Rangers use.

Additionally what would be the purpose of mind-manipulation powers? Would Dark Rangers simply use these abilities to "tame" creatures like the Hunter class?

I didn't know rogues were a ranged class?

Subtlety Rogue and their Shuriken abilities.