If Blizzard makes their own Raider.IO, do you think it's time for rated MM in M+?

[Samuraijake]

instead of raider i.o they needed a proving grounds score or bronze/silver/gold/platinum rating in something that you cant buy or be carried in.

[Ludek]

Auto grouping, even with matchmaking system, would only work if the group does not get punished for failing a key eg. key does not downgrade if timer is failed / someone leaves.

In solo-que PVP games indeed your rating gets punished for failing, albeit there, the rating is much more flexible. In most cases you need multiple failings to actually go down the ladder, and seasons itself last for couple of months.

In terms of match making keystones your "season" lasts 1 week, and your "rating" (keystone level) always goes up and down whole level depending on an outcome of one "game".

If someones ponder why I'm using keystone level as rating, not RIO / Blizz M+ Score in this comparison - it's pretty simple.
In PVP games your rating decide about your opponents "skill level / difficulty" (or at least thats the idea for it, flawed or not). Since in M+ your "opponents" are the trash mobs and bosses, the main thing deciding about their difficulty is the key level, not your total dungeon progression.

[kenn9530]

The other day Preach mentioned that Blizzard is looking into making their own version of Raider.IO for mythic dungeons. Or at least some form of rating system to track player performance in M+. This doesn't seem too unusual, considering how any time there's a popular, widespread addon, Blizzard tends to incorporate it into the game.

And I use Preach because, despite being a "biased youtuber", generally speaking his contacts and information about the game are factual. He bases his opinion on real info and not something made up. I think it's reasonable to assume that if he says Blizzard is looking at it....they are.

Regardless, what do you guys think? It seems that if there's going to be a rating or scoring system for M+, that there's one less reason to NOT have matchmaking based on that score.

Or are we still using the idea that "M+ content is too difficult to include MM for it"?

M+ is too difficult for the average player so its just going to result in constantly failing keys, even a highly skilled player can struggle in M+, its not like its hard to find a group, just most players are not capable of doing anything higher than a 5.

The average player doesnt learn what actually goes on in a M+ dungeon and without learning that it just massively increases the failure chance.

[ellieg]

I can't fathom why this would even be a priority in their mind.

The masses are gone. So this should be a sign a majority of players have no interest in this. They should spend more time trying to appeal to the masses. Not how many competitive players? Less than 100k? With only how many people that actually watch these events. (e-sports) Priorities seem out of whack to me.

I'm also still unimpressed how the new Raid didn't get any incentives for the common players. Instead they only added the mythic mount at the end of the raid. How many players actually attempt mythic or even succeed at it? The raid aspect of the game doesn't even feel like it is for everyone now. Instead it feels like it is for gold farmers and people who sell runs/mount.

Without the common player it hurts the community/game as a whole. Less business for everyone around, including the company. Priorities Blizzard.

Maybe just maybe they have better information about "the masses" than you have.

[Littleraven]

I wouldn't mind it but at the same time I am not the audience for M+. In the years that is has been available I have done maybe 3 or 4 M+ runs because it just doesn't interest me. I am sure part of that is because the barrier to entry is more than just a button click but I also realize I just don't really want to be bother even if its a guild run.

I don't think LFG would be the worst thing for M+ especially if the ilvl requirements were strict enough but I also see it being a huge problem if no one is communicating and people rage quit. Also it would be a nightmare trying to figure out how the keys got used. Would everyone need to have a specific key to even get queued in? Would it be used as soon as the run started for each person?

Lots of shit that can go wrong with the entire idea

[Yuli]

::queues for SD15::

::wait 62 minutes for a group to form::

::instance loads, 3 Destro Warlocks, Guardian Druid and MW Monk::

[P] [Warlockdudeman]: hey ne1 venth

::dead silence::

::two players have left the group::

Yeah. Fuck everything about this idea.

this sums is up pretty well

[Feral Druid ist Op]

Not that I care about which class my tank is, but if prot warrior is the 2nd best tank in m+, then I guess all the people doing high keys probably are dumb for not bringing warrior tanks?

no only you are, why bring sec best if you can bring the best, also you can ask Nerf or Nala (rank 1 tank and former rank 1 rogue both buddys of mine) about Warr tanks and come back here ill wait also watch the raid testing today

[Relapses]

Not that I care about which class my tank is, but if prot warrior is the 2nd best tank in m+, then I guess all the people doing high keys probably are dumb for not bringing warrior tanks?

The meta shift is recent and mostly due to the buffed Legendary from 9.0.5. The reason high key groups aren't all running Warrior is because most of them are still running VDH. (And VDH is still equivocally a better tank for the highest key pushing as long as both Moonkin and Mage remain meta.) This is observable in the fact that Nerftank, the tank in the highest IO push group, has recently been switching between his Prot Warrior and VDH depending on the key they're pushing.

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no only you are, why bring sec best if you can bring the best, also you can ask Nerf or Nala (rank 1 tank and former rank 1 rogue both buddys of mine) about Warr tanks and come back here ill wait also watch the raid testing today

If Havoc ever pushes out Rogue (highly unlikely) and two casters remains the meta for the rest of the expansion we'll definitely see a lot more Prot Warrior. If the meta shifts back to Hunter (likely with the proposed 9.1 nerfs) then that will only make this even more likely.

[Feral Druid ist Op]

The meta shift is recent and mostly due to the buffed Legendary from 9.0.5. The reason high key groups aren't all running Warrior is because most of them are still running VDH. (And VDH is still equivocally a better tank for the highest key pushing as long as both Moonkin and Mage remain meta.) This is observable in the fact that Nerftank, the tank in the highest IO push group, has recently been switching between his Prot Warrior and VDH depending on the key they're pushing.

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If Havoc ever pushes out Rogue (highly unlikely) and two casters remains the meta for the rest of the expansion we'll definitely see a lot more Prot Warrior. If the meta shifts back to Hunter (likely with the proposed 9.1 nerfs) then that will only make this even more likely.

yea its all about the buffs Havoc gets later on the ptr cuz its like 20% behind ST, but double Prot are safe for rading als log as they dont nerf banner (even with the lego) our tanks and alot of other top 1-30 tanks from what i have seen lvling/Gearing Warriors to have them rdy.

[intenz]

rio leads to extremely toxic gameplay. Toxic gameplay will just get worse with this move.

Quite the opposite.

[aceperson]

Because that's where I first encountered the info. There was no other ulterior motive besides what I stated: His info is legit.

Way to attempt to derail the thread btw.

felplague is just a hard blizzard shill. i would just ignore them. even when the criticism is justified, they attack you for not praising blizzard.

edit: to touch on the topic so i'm not like felplague, i don't think an automated que system would work for m+. the reason is won't work is the same reason lfr doesn't work and why heroics had to be nerfed into oblivion. random people each have an ego and usually refuse to work with each other. it usually falls on players like me to hard carry groups to a finish. a matchmaking system will only increase hatred for m+ and most likely result in massive dungeon nerfs since most casual players will only use the que system and blizzard is too afraid these days to tell them to git gud. i know people will call me an elitist for this opinion but it's a fact that if you can't do something, you should improve in some manner rather than beg for the content to be brought to your level. the only exception to this is when something is over tuned in which case the content is really only doable by computers.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

I can't fathom why this would even be a priority in their mind.

The masses are gone. So this should be a sign a majority of players have no interest in this. They should spend more time trying to appeal to the masses. Not how many competitive players? Less than 100k? With only how many people that actually watch these events. (e-sports) Priorities seem out of whack to me.

I'm also still unimpressed how the new Raid didn't get any incentives for the common players. Instead they only added the mythic mount at the end of the raid. How many players actually attempt mythic or even succeed at it? The raid aspect of the game doesn't even feel like it is for everyone now. Instead it feels like it is for gold farmers and people who sell runs/mount.

Without the common player it hurts the community/game as a whole. Less business for everyone around, including the company. Priorities Blizzard.

It probably isn't at all. The OP has a pretty long history of demanding antisocial systems because it doesn't like to be social, or doesn't have friends, or isn't good enough to get accepted into groups that will reward to its desires. If I remember right it's mostly the first 2 but I digress.

So whenever something is introduced to the game it's pretty much always proposed that "now is the time for ai to take over and match making determine everything". It gets almost no discussion because anyone that has any points against it are "making stuff up" or "elitest" and anyone that agrees with it is obviously on to something. Usually a few accounts of questionable nature will drift in and those that disagree start getting reported in an attempt to ban disagreement too. It is pretty text book at this point.

[Trend]

rio leads to extremely toxic gameplay. Toxic gameplay will just get worse with this move.

Raider.io is in its third expansion. The WoW community has been toxic since 2004. Maybe you weren't playing or were so casual that you did not notice but there have never been good old days when random people just got along and encouraged each other.

Also, I think it is amusing that some of the most toxic people on this forum complain about things being toxic.

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felplague is just a hard blizzard shill. i would just ignore them. even when the criticism is justified, they attack you for not praising blizzard.

What actually happened was that the OP made it sound like some streamer had some inside knowledge (if you don't believe me read it again.) Someone clarifying that the basic point discussed isn't super secret info that we have to trust a streamer for isn't an attack unless your skin is a micron thick. And your position is illogical anyway because the context of the discussion was never Blizzard good versus Blizzard bad. IMO save your rage for a time it makes at least a little sense.

[Thetruth1400]

If they're going to bake in Raider.IO, there's no reason they don't just make it MM as well, similar to how other games have competitive SR for match making.

That would also help eliminate the "Oh we don't want X class/spec for arbitrary Y reason." as the game would basically tell you "This player meets the skill level requirement for this level of content."

At that point, if you want your custom tailored "this is peak performance" tailor built group, you can waste your time making that while the others, who just want competent players capable of that level of content, can take the faster route of match making.

[chiddie]

No. Implementing it to make it work barely as intended would take an insane amount of hours. It’s not “just pick similar blizzard score tank, healer, 3 dps and gg”.

If it’s M0 sure, but not above that. It would frustate players even more than now.

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And their rating drops as they quit, while good players rise, actually sifting the bads to where they belong. Good players get good groups.

But we'll never see that due to an assumption.

Uh? Rio score does not go down if you fail a dungeon. It can only go up or remain the same. Are you suggesting an aberration like this, by chance?

Edit : wait, you are suggesting another score for mm only that goes up and down with completion in time or not? Lol anyone doing something above +5 will never use this system.

[Elbob]

If they're going to bake in Raider.IO, there's no reason they don't just make it MM as well, similar to how other games have competitive SR for match making.

That would also help eliminate the "Oh we don't want X class/spec for arbitrary Y reason." as the game would basically tell you "This player meets the skill level requirement for this level of content."

At that point, if you want your custom tailored "this is peak performance" tailor built group, you can waste your time making that while the others, who just want competent players capable of that level of content, can take the faster route of match making.

There is a significant difference between getting a full meta perfect comp and wanting to make sure you have atleast 1 ranged dps on quaking or spiteful weeks in your weekly +15. Cause that +15 grp with 3 melee dps and a holy pally is gonna feel real crappy real quick regardless if the players are individually at their content level or not.

[Kokolums]

Raider.io is in its third expansion. The WoW community has been toxic since 2004. Maybe you weren't playing or were so casual that you did not notice but there have never been good old days when random people just got along and encouraged each other.

I played since vanilla and people were worlds more patient and willing to help back then.

Hell, go watch the old Serenity Now Funeral crash video. While most people focus on the PvP, notice instead just HOW MANY PEOPLE legitimately took time out of their day to go to Winterspring and stand in line to pay their respects to someone who passed away. There is absolutely NO such community in modern WoW. People are nameless faces in a crowd of gogogo step on the dead and keep moving. If a WoW player died in 2021, there would be no lines for a funeral in the game. No one would care.

You are in a dream world if you think it was toxic back then.

[gaymer77]

If Blizzard did do some sort of matchmaking with an in-game raider.io then that would do away with the keys that a person gets every week when doing their first M+ because there would be no way to ensure SOMEONE in the group actually has a key to even start it up. That or EVERYONE would be required to have the key for the selected M+ on the setting they want and probably would make each person use their key and upgrade/downgrade it once the run is over.

[Relapses]

If they're going to bake in Raider.IO, there's no reason they don't just make it MM as well, similar to how other games have competitive SR for match making.

That would also help eliminate the "Oh we don't want X class/spec for arbitrary Y reason." as the game would basically tell you "This player meets the skill level requirement for this level of content."

At that point, if you want your custom tailored "this is peak performance" tailor built group, you can waste your time making that while the others, who just want competent players capable of that level of content, can take the faster route of match making.

Yeah, except that's not at all how the game is played in high keys and if you've ever stepped in one you'd know that. The difference between a meta group and a non-meta group is the difference between timing and not timing. Nobody will force themselves to sit in a queue when a.) the current system takes about the same amount of time as a queue anyway and b.) it gives you control over which players you bring to the group, greatly increasing the likelihood of the group's success. Now, if you're suggesting that Blizzard simply do away with the ability to form your own group and would instead prefer if it was an MMR-based grind to the highest keys, you'd effectively kill M+ altogether.

[chiddie]

I played since vanilla and people were worlds more patient and willing to help back then.

Hell, go watch the old Serenity Now Funeral crash video. While most people focus on the PvP, notice instead just HOW MANY PEOPLE legitimately took time out of their day to go to Winterspring and stand in line to pay their respects to someone who passed away. There is absolutely NO such community in modern WoW. People are nameless faces in a crowd of gogogo step on the dead and keep moving. If a WoW player died in 2021, there would be no lines for a funeral in the game. No one would care.

You are in a dream world if you think it was toxic back then.

People were more patient because best rewards were not tied in timed dungeons with random affixes and ramping difficulty. You could run Stratholme in 10 minutes or 100 and there were no differences in the end apart from the 100 mins group having wasted 90 minutes more of their time.

The game evolutions made people change.