If they made a new class in the future, what would it be?

[Triceron]

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Shadow_hunter
Shadow hunters don't even use the elements. they use a combination of voodoo and shadow magic. So you're being 100% dishonest in saying they are just shamans because they absolutely are not. So your future comments about shadow hunters are completely invalid and dishonest.

Do you not realize that I'm using your own argument as an example of its dishonesty?

Yes, it is a dishonest example because I intended to show you how merely saying 'It's just a title' is a dishonest proposal.

We also have clear examples that Sylvanas is a Dark Ranger, and that she is capable of abilities and themes that aren't merely accessible by a Forsaken Hunter. That you choose to ignore them just because Sylvanas has a deeper connection to being a Banshee than the other Dark Rangers do does not mean the theme does not exist in the class.

And I'm dismissing the idea because it simply won't happen and would never be a class. Dark rangers would not work as an entire class since they are simply undead elf hunters. Nothing more. I'm not posting in bad faith because this is a thread about potential classes. All I'm saying is that dark ranger simply doesn't make any god damned sense because they function pretty much exactly like hunters in every way. That's not bad faith.

Sylvanas is a Dark Ranger, no matter how hard you try to simplify her to being some unique character that no one else amounts to being. We have had clear examples of the Dark Ranger as a Hero in Warcraft 3, with many named Dark Rangers in the multiplayer that have made their way into WoW like Anya and Clea.

Sylvanas is capable of far more abilities than a Hunter could possibly do, and pretending that she is *not* the embodiment of the Dark Ranger concept is simply dishonest too. We don't *need* to see NPCs in WoW do the same, because we already know they are capable of this in Warcraft 3 which is where the concept comes from.

There is no canon saying they *lost* this ability. There is no lore that says they are unable to use Mind Control. Whatever reason you have come up with, it is a dishonest one as well, since you haven't actually given an example of lore saying they *lost* the ability to use these abilities. It's merely correlation that WoW has shown and Dark Ranger NPC using these abilities; they haven't even outright shown Sylvanas using this ability even though we KNOW she is capable of it. Even Sylvanas has never been shown to explicitly use her Mind Control abilities in WoW, when we know it is absolutely canonical that she has this ability. In fact, we rarely even see Priest NPCs use this ability even though we know Shadow Priests are capable of it too.

When Dark Ranger comes into discussion, Sylvanas and her portrayal in Warcraft 3 and Heroes of the Storm are the concepts that people are talking about. If you openly dismiss them without regard, then you are discussing in bad faith. You haven't actually made a point to discuss the Dark Ranger concept that others are choosing to discuss, you're merely projecting the Quel'dorei Dark Ranger NPC as being merely a Hunter and choosing not to regard any concepts other than this one example. That is bad faith. You're openly ignoring class discussion, and rather than simply saying your opinion, you're openly trying to shut down other people's arguments by saying this is what a Dark Ranger can only be, even though Sylvanas is the Dark Ranger who defines what that concept really is.

I would also say if you intend to argue that Tinkers and Blademasters are just titles, it would also be an argument in bad faith in the same way. You're not intending to respect the topic or what people are regarding as a potential concept, you're simply pawning off your own personal view of what the class can only be. You have no intention of regarding a Dark Ranger any more than its quel'dorei NPC counterpart, and have no reason to participate in actual Dark Ranger class concept discussion other than to dismiss other people's ideas.

Your argument is in bad faith because you are ignoring Sylvanas as a Dark Ranger. The whole Class concept revolves around her, and you have chosen to focus your argument on the quel'dorei NPCs that are represented merely as Hunters with no regard for open discussion.

You have the freedom to dismiss the idea that they would be a class. I would even agree with you that they would not be a class, and I don't think Blizzard will even pick the Dark Ranger. Yet I will argue against the *reasons* that you used to dismiss them, such as saying they are merely Hunters or saying it is merely a title of a Hunter. Sylvanas is already given the title of Banshee Queen, so there is no reason for her to maintain a Dark Ranger title. Yet Blizzard continues to use this and never refers to her as merely a Hunter. We know that Blizzard regards Dark Ranger as something more than simply being a type of Hunter, especially when we see how the Dark Rangers are consistently being granted unique abilities that are not accessible to Hunters.

If there is canonical depiction of a difference, then there is zero reason to universally dismiss them as simply being Hunters. Your argument is not factual, it is based on ambiguity. And you are clear about your intention of not compromising, which means there is literally no constructive reason for you to interject yourself in any Dark Ranger class discussions.

[Teriz]

Illidan already exemplified this.

Illidan flies, Demon Hunters double jump and glide. The themes and concepts don't have to be translated 1:1, and a Banshee form (if added) would not have to mirror Sylvanas completely.

What would Banshee form flight translate into though? The only thing that would make sense is levitate, which the Priest class already does, in an incorporeal form like a ghost.

It's even arguable whether those aspects are even necessary, when you consider that people wanted to play as Sylvanas well before she exhibited any flight in the cinematics. I would argue that her depiction in Heroes of the Storm is the standard we should stick to when it comes to limits of Banshee-influenced abilities. Themes of calling upon Banshee spirits, imbuing arrows with Banshee screams, cursing enemies and spilling out her torment on to others.

Beyond imbuing arrows with Banshee screams (which is simply a fancy version of Silencing Shot), how are any of those Banshee abilities out of place in the Shadow Priest spec?

The actual act of transforming into a Banshee is not class defining for a Dark Ranger. Heroes of the Storm already conveys most of the archetype and shows how it's already thematically and mechanically different from Hunter gameplay.

Okay, so once again, what is the class defining ability? In Tinkers it is Robo Goblin, the ability to pilot a mech. What makes Dark Rangers unique and special?

Which further shows that there *IS* a significant difference between Dark Rangers and Hunters. Hunters don't use any abilities that would thematically go to a Priest class.

Incorrect. Sylvanas is the only Dark Ranger with banshee powers, so only Sylvanas is some bizarre hybrid of Hunters and Shadow Priests. Every other Dark Ranger is simply a Hunter with shadow arrows. I'm isolating the Banshee powers to show you that they're not unique either.

You're still trying to argue in bad faith. I have no reason to believe you have any intention of being convinced by any answer given, only choosing to engage on more pointless debating that will circle back to 'Death Knights already use Necromancy' or 'Those abilities can be added to Hunters and Priests'.

C'mon, we both know you're not legitimately asking these questions to reach common ground. This isn't 2010. Who you foolin'?

Honestly I would just like you to give me an ability that defines the Dark Ranger class concept.

[TheRevenantHero]

Sylvanas is a Dark Ranger, no matter how hard you try to simplify her to being some unique character that no one else amounts to being. We have had clear examples of the Dark Ranger as a Hero in Warcraft 3, with many named Dark Rangers in the multiplayer that have made their way into WoW like Anya and Clea.

Sylvanas is capable of far more abilities than a Hunter could possibly do, and pretending that she is *not* the embodiment of the Dark Ranger concept is simply dishonest too. We don't *need* to see NPCs in WoW do the same, because we already know they are capable of this in Warcraft 3 which is where the concept comes from.

There is no canon saying they *lost* this ability. There is no lore that says they are unable to use Mind Control. Whatever reason you have come up with, it is a dishonest one as well, since you haven't actually given an example of lore saying they *lost* the ability to use these abilities. It's merely correlation that WoW has shown and Dark Ranger NPC using these abilities; they haven't even outright shown Sylvanas using this ability even though we KNOW she is capable of it. Even Sylvanas has never been shown to explicitly use her Mind Control abilities in WoW, when we know it is absolutely canonical that she has this ability. In fact, we rarely even see Priest NPCs use this ability even though we know Shadow Priests are capable of it too.

When Dark Ranger comes into discussion, Sylvanas and her portrayal in Warcraft 3 and Heroes of the Storm are the concepts that people are talking about. If you openly dismiss them without regard, then you are discussing in bad faith. You haven't actually made a point to discuss the Dark Ranger concept that others are choosing to discuss, you're merely projecting the Quel'dorei Dark Ranger NPC as being merely a Hunter and choosing not to regard any concepts other than this one example. That is bad faith. You're openly ignoring class discussion, and rather than simply saying your opinion, you're openly trying to shut down other people's arguments by saying this is what a Dark Ranger can only be, even though Sylvanas is the Dark Ranger who defines what that concept really is.

I would also say if you intend to argue that Tinkers and Blademasters are just titles, it would also be an argument in bad faith in the same way. You're not intending to respect the topic or what people are regarding as a potential concept, you're simply pawning off your own personal view of what the class can only be. You have no intention of regarding a Dark Ranger any more than its quel'dorei NPC counterpart, and have no reason to participate in actual Dark Ranger class concept discussion other than to dismiss other people's ideas.

Your argument is in bad faith because you are ignoring Sylvanas as a Dark Ranger. The whole Class concept revolves around her, and you have chosen to focus your argument on the quel'dorei NPCs that are represented merely as Hunters with no regard for open discussion.

I never said Sylvanas wasn't a dark ranger. What I'm saying is that the majority of her abilities are abilities that only SHE has. Every other dark ranger don't have any of her more unique abilities. This is because Sylvanas is a banshee and other dark rangers are not. So using her as an example for something every dark ranger would do as a class is nothing more than you completely disregarding canon. And if dark rangers were still capable of mind control, at least ONE would have mind control but they don't. Sylvanas doesn't design the entire concept because she is an incredibly unique case since she's a banshee so that gives her more powers a player likely won't ever get any time soon.

I'm not ignoring class discussion. I'm saying that dark ranger will not be a full blown class and that we should be talking about concepts that could feasibly become a class. Dark ranger is just hunter given Black Arrow again. So continuing to discuss dark ranger as a possible class is nothing but wasted time that could be better spent on more feasible classes.

The only person who is arguing in bad faith is you, really. You disregard lore, put forth your own headcanons, make dishonest comments about potential classes like shadow hunters, and make baseless accusations. Just because I'm shooting down dark ranger as a class doesn't mean I'm arguing in bad faith. I'm more than willing to discuss other concepts like dragonsworn, shadow hunter, or runemaster because those three are unique enough to warrant an entire class. Dark ranger, on the other hand, absolutely does not have enough to unique about it to warrant anything more than MAYBE a spec for hunters.

[Triceron]

What would Banshee form flight translate into though? The only thing that would make sense is levitate, which the Priest class already does, in an incorporeal form like a ghost.

I personally would not. This can remain a unique aspect to Sylvanas, something that she can do that playable class Dark Rangers would not.

I think Blizzard should translate those mechanics into something that moderately fits a WoW class. Flight is poorly translated into class mechanics anyways, so it can be adapted as form of floating or gliding or left out completely.

Okay, so once again, what is the class defining ability? In Tinkers it is Robo Goblin, the ability to pilot a mech. What makes Dark Rangers unique and special?

Overall, I personally do not regard any class to be defined by any singular abilities, because Blizzard can change that out any time. I personally regard a concept for being a full package, for all its talents, specs, abilities, weapon choices and more. That even extends out to things not fully represented in the game, such as Tauren Warriors capable of using giant Totems as weapons.

What ability defines a Paladin that could not be given to a Priest or Warrior? Divine Shield? Holy Light? I see no merit in debating the differences between Shamans use of Fire Elementals and Blood Lust and Mages using Water Elementals and Time Warp.

Incorrect. Sylvanas is the only Dark Ranger with banshee powers, so only Sylvanas is some bizarre hybrid of Hunters and Shadow Priests. Every other Dark Ranger is simply a Hunter with shadow arrows.

Which is all the more reason to expand on Sylvanas' concepts if we're regarding any type of Dark Ranger concept, which will ultimately be based on her abilities.

Honestly I would just like you to give me an ability that defines the Dark Ranger class concept.

Honestly, I do not define classes based on abilities, so that is a question I am unable to answer you. I don't think such a thing exists.

What ability defines a Paladin?

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I never said Sylvanas wasn't a dark ranger. What I'm saying is that the majority of her abilities are abilities that only SHE has. Every other dark ranger don't have any of her more unique abilities.

And you are hellbent on dismissing the possibility for any Dark Ranger concept carrying any of these themes, even though Sylvanas and her depictions in all three Warcraft games would be the ideal basis for this class.

You have been clear about your position, so there's really no point in you trying to make your point known any more, since it's based on your own subjective opinion of what a Dark Ranger *should* be rather than actually regarding what Blizzard has presented it as.

I'm not ignoring class discussion. I'm saying that dark ranger will not be a full blown class and that we should be talking about concepts that could feasibly become a class.

You are also using arguments in bad faith to push this point. Again, the mere mention of you saying Dark Ranger is simply a title is no different than applying that to ANY given class.

You are presenting a situation where anyone discussing Dark Rangers would have to prove to you that Blizzard regards them as a class, while you are openly stating that you are not willing to be convinced of any evidence that Dark Rangers would ever be playable. This thread is built on the intention to discuss new classes, so your line of argument is absolutely done in bad faith, because you have no intention of actually discussing, simply bludgeoning others with your own perspective that Dark Rangers *can not* be anything more than a Quel'dorei Hunter.

The whole basis of your argument is centered on Dark Rangers *NOT BEING* anything more than a Hunter. You personally think Dark Rangers couldn't ever be given Banshee powers. That is a subjective opinion that is not rendered canonical by Blizzard.

This is exactly what ignoring class discussion is. Multiple people have pressed you on Blizzard being capable of changing or updating that definition, yet you flat out dismiss any *POSSIBILITY* that a Dark Ranger like Sylvanas would ever exist again.

I'm more than willing to discuss other concepts like dragonsworn, shadow hunter, or runemaster because those three are unique enough to warrant an entire class. Dark ranger, on the other hand, absolutely does not have enough to unique about it to warrant anything more than MAYBE a spec for hunters.

So why go out of your way to dismiss any concept at all? What is your ultimate goal if not to derail others discussion of Dark Rangers with pointless shut downs? As we're both in acknowledgement, you're not willing to reach any moderate conclusion on this, so are you expecting to reply to others and somehow make them see your way?

I'm fine if you're simply presenting your opinion on the matter, but that's not what you're actually doing. You've been replying to others and simply shutting down any potential Dark Ranger discussion based on your own interpretation that a Dark Ranger *can not* be anything other than a Hunter, and pointing at WoW as though it were a definitive source on the matter.

If you are willing to accept that a Dark Ranger can potentially have Banshee abilities, then we'd at least be talking about the same concept, however you're not even willing to allow that possibility so I don't quite know what your goal is with replying to anyone else about Dark Rangers. This isn't even a case of discussing opinions, this is just shutting down others opinions on what a Dark Ranger class could be.

The only person who is arguing in bad faith is you, really. You disregard lore, put forth your own headcanons, make dishonest comments about potential classes like shadow hunters

Whoosh!

Dude. Read my statements above about Shadow Hunters again. I literally played Devils Advocate and used *your own* argument regarding titles to show you how you could apply it to a Shadow Hunter and be just as dishonest as you have been about Dark Rangers.

I didn't make any dishonest comments at all, I'm pointing out how your triviliaizing the Dark Ranger title can be similarly applied to any class in the game.

How are you defining the Shadow Hunter and Warden as their own class but not the Blademaster or Dark Ranger? Has Blizzard said that one is just a title while the other is a class? No. They have not. You subjectively are using an argument that Dark Ranger is just a title without actually being able to prove that it has no meaning beyond it, even though Sylvanas is the embodiment of the Dark Ranger and you've dismissed anything unique about her abilities as simply being non-canon to other Dark Rangers. It's as you say, completely dishonest.

I personally regard EVERY class concept as potentially viable.

Shadow Hunters. Wardens. Blademasters. Dark Rangers. These are all their own classes, whether Blizzard is capable of making them playable in WoW or not. I don't pick and choose and say Blademasters are Warriors or Tinkers are Engineers. I was using your own example of generalizing any given class down to its basic titles.

I don't actually believe a Tinker is just an engineer. I will say that WoW does simply regard it that way, but it does not mean that they are one and the same. WoW's depiction generalizes all potential Classes down to simply being titles, because a Class is only defined by game mechanics - whether Blizzard makes it playable or not. Blizzard does not officially regard anything that is not playable as a Class.

Death Knights before Wrath were not a Class. Demon Hunters before Legion were not a Class. A Class is only defined after Blizzard makes it playable.

That is my point about Titles. You can't just dismiss something as being a title, because ALL POTENTIAL CLASSES are merely regarded as Titles in WoW. Even a Shadow Hunter and a Warden is simply a title. WoW makes absolutely no distinction to say they aren't Shamans or that they aren't Rogues any more than they make a distinction to say the Dark Ranger is not a Hunter. If you believe Dark Ranger is just a Hunter, then you have to realize that Blizzard has not canonically made that distinction in WoW. A Dark Ranger has never been called a Hunter, and a Hunter has never been called a Dark Ranger.

Whenever you say Dark Rangers are just quel'dorei Hunters, you're using *your own interpretation* on the matter. You will never see any of those descriptions actually refer to a Dark Ranger as merely a Hunter in WoW.

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Dark_ranger

You can see in the description, the only thing relating to the Hunter class is a mere mention in the sidebar that they *could also be* a Hunter. There is no official canon defining them as one and the same.

[vsb]

I would rather see some of the other classes fleshed out and improved, where they are otherwise kind of boring.

Warrior: Make Gladiator Stance actually work, so that Sword and Board DPS is viable.

Shaman: Enhancement reimagined as Earthwarder, a Tank spec. Elemental reimagined as a hybrid melee/ranged spec. Think Avengers' Thor.

Monk: Allow Windwalker Monk to use 2-Hand Weapons, and reimagined as Blademaster.

Rogue: Assassination turned into a Ranged Spec that can use Bows, Crossbows and Guns and reimagined as Dark Ranger.

Hunter: Survival Hunter can Dual Wield one handed weapons. Can use any Pet as a Mount.

Mage: Arcane turned into a Healing Spec and reimagined as Chronomancy.

Druid: Allow Druids to copy the appearance of NPC Beasts to use as Shapeshift forms similar to Hunter Pet Taming.

Death Knight: Unholy reimagined as a Staff Wielding Ranged DPS aka Necromancer.

I love what you did with priests.

[Teriz]

What ability defines a Paladin?

Paladins are a standard RPG class. They don’t need defining abilities. Shaman had totems, Druids had shape shifting, and Warlocks controlled demons.

Dark Rangers?

[TheRevenantHero]

I personally would not. This can remain a unique aspect to Sylvanas, something that she can do that playable class Dark Rangers would not.

I think Blizzard should translate those mechanics into something that moderately fits a WoW class. Flight is poorly translated into class mechanics anyways, so it can be adapted as form of floating or gliding or left out completely.



Overall, I personally do not regard any class to be defined by any singular abilities, because Blizzard can change that out any time. I personally regard a concept for being a full package, for all its talents, specs, abilities, weapon choices and more. That even extends out to things not fully represented in the game, such as Tauren Warriors capable of using giant Totems as weapons.

What ability defines a Paladin that could not be given to a Priest or Warrior? Divine Shield? Holy Light? I see no merit in debating the differences between Shamans use of Fire Elementals and Blood Lust and Mages using Water Elementals and Time Warp.



Which is all the more reason to expand on Sylvanas' concepts if we're regarding any type of Dark Ranger concept, which will ultimately be based on her abilities.



Honestly, I do not define classes based on abilities, so that is a question I am unable to answer you. I don't think such a thing exists.

What ability defines a Paladin?

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And you are hellbent on dismissing the possibility for any Dark Ranger concept carrying any of these themes, even though Sylvanas and her depictions in all three Warcraft games would be the ideal basis for this class.

You have been clear about your position, so there's really no point in you trying to make your point known any more, since it's based on your own subjective opinion of what a Dark Ranger *should* be rather than actually regarding what Blizzard has presented it as.



You are also using arguments in bad faith to push this point. Again, the mere mention of you saying Dark Ranger is simply a title is no different than applying that to ANY given class.

You are presenting a situation where anyone discussing Dark Rangers would have to prove to you that Blizzard regards them as a class, while you are openly stating that you are not willing to be convinced of any evidence that Dark Rangers would ever be playable. This thread is built on the intention to discuss new classes, so your line of argument is absolutely done in bad faith, because you have no intention of actually discussing, simply bludgeoning others with your own perspective that Dark Rangers *can not* be anything more than a Quel'dorei Hunter.

The whole basis of your argument is centered on Dark Rangers *NOT BEING* anything more than a Hunter. You personally think Dark Rangers couldn't ever be given Banshee powers. That is a subjective opinion that is not rendered canonical by Blizzard.

This is exactly what ignoring class discussion is. Multiple people have pressed you on Blizzard being capable of changing or updating that definition, yet you flat out dismiss any *POSSIBILITY* that a Dark Ranger like Sylvanas would ever exist again.



So why go out of your way to dismiss any concept at all? What is your ultimate goal if not to derail others discussion of Dark Rangers with pointless shut downs? As we're both in acknowledgement, you're not willing to reach any moderate conclusion on this, so are you expecting to reply to others and somehow make them see your way?

I'm fine if you're simply presenting your opinion on the matter, but that's not what you're actually doing. You've been replying to others and simply shutting down any potential Dark Ranger discussion based on your own interpretation that a Dark Ranger *can not* be anything other than a Hunter, and pointing at WoW as though it were a definitive source on the matter.

If you are willing to accept that a Dark Ranger can potentially have Banshee abilities, then we'd at least be talking about the same concept, however you're not even willing to allow that possibility so I don't quite know what your goal is with replying to anyone else about Dark Rangers. This isn't even a case of discussing opinions, this is just shutting down others opinions on what a Dark Ranger class could be.

Blizzard has NOT depicted the dark rangers as being just like Sylvanas. Because I'll say it again, she is an entirely unique subject. All the other dark rangers are not banshees like her. All the other dark rangers seem to function just like hunters and mostly only have current or past hunter spells. It's not a subjective opinion. It's facts that you are choosing to utterly disregard over and over again because they don't fit your narrative.

"Bad faith is a concept in negotiation theory whereby parties pretend to reason to reach settlement, but have no intention to do so, for example, one political party may pretend to negotiate, with no intention to compromise, for political effect." I haven't been doing that. I even said I'm willing to discuss feasible class concepts like Dragonsworn. Stop calling it a bad faith argument just because I won't bend to your opinion and agree with everything you say. Also, dark rangers canonically don't have any banshee powers. So again, stop being dishonest with your comments. There was a new dark ranger NPC created recently and she didn't have any of sylvanas' abilities. So to continue to say "It's your headcanon that dark rangers don't have banshee abilities." is utterly asinine and annoying. Ranger is 100% nothing more than another name for hunters. Just because you don't like that fact doesn't mean make me saying that headcanon.

Because continuing to debate about a class that is pretty much already represented in the game in the form of hunters does nothing but derail things. Saying WoW isn't a definitive source on the matter is another asinine comment. You're trying to say that topic about classes for WoW shouldn't use WoW as a definitive source. Do you really not see how incredibly ridiculous that comment is? The reason they won't get banshee abilities is because THEY'RE NOT FUCKING BANSHEES. THEY ARE UNDEAD ELVES. Holy shit, why do I need to keep repeating this?

[Triceron]

Paladins are a standard RPG class. They don’t need defining abilities. Shaman had totems, Druids had shape shifting, and Warlocks controlled demons.

Dark Rangers are an iconic Warcraft Hero, like Death Knight and Demon Hunter. They need no defining abilities, since their entire archetype is already well established throughout WoW, Warcraft 3 and Heroes of the Storm.

They are a shadowy ranged assassin who manipulates their opponents with dark magic. It's a theme common with D3 Demon Hunters and Wardens. It's a concept that encompasses the torment and hatred of Banshees.

[Teriz]

Dark Rangers are an iconic Warcraft class, like Death Knight and Demon Hunter. They need no defining abilities, since their entire archetype is already well established throughout WoW, Warcraft 3 and Heroes of the Storm.

A Warcraft class, not a standard RPG class. Warcraft classes need defining abilities in order to fully separate them from standard RPG classes. Every Warcraft class in the lineup has that characteristic.

[Triceron]

Blizzard has NOT depicted the dark rangers as being just like Sylvanas.

Play Warcraft 3. Warcraft 3 is absolutely canon.

Stop calling it a bad faith argument just because I won't bend to your opinion and agree with everything you say

I'm not even asking you to agree to anything.

I'm literally pointing out the flaws in your argument and questioning your purpose in your pursuit of discussing Dark Rangers.

I even said I'm willing to discuss feasible class concepts like Dragonsworn

Then that's great to hear.

Yet that's not the problem I'm pointing out. As I said, the problem is you're dismissing the Dark Ranger with no intention of discussing it constructively. How is that arguing in good faith if your intention is not even to sustain a matter of agreeing-to-disagree with people who wish to discuss a fictional merit for Dark Rangers that are Banshees?

Because continuing to debate about a class that is pretty much already represented in the game in the form of hunters does nothing but derail things. Saying WoW isn't a definitive source on the matter is another asinine comment. You're trying to say that topic about classes for WoW shouldn't use WoW as a definitive source. Do you really not see how incredibly ridiculous that comment is? The reason they won't get banshee abilities is because THEY'RE NOT FUCKING BANSHEES. THEY ARE UNDEAD ELVES. Holy shit, why do I need to keep repeating this?

The point is not whether they are Banshees or not.

The point is asking you whether you would even consider the potential that Blizzard could *ALLOW* a Dark Ranger class to be Banshees.

If you are saying no and you are using WOW as a definitive source that says no, then you are being dishonest and twisting the lore to fit your narrative. WoW lore has zero impact on what Blizzard can create in the future.

As I said, if we've never seen Female Ogres in WoW, it is not evidence that Female Ogres do not exist or that Ogres are one-gender. This is not evidence, this is not proof. WoW can not be used as a definitive source to prove that female Ogres do not exist.

You can't use WoW to prove that Dark Rangers have zero connection to banshees if Blizzard has left it completely ambiguous. WoW has not defined it at all.

I can say Ogres in WoW are only male, but it does mean Females do not exist. You can say Dark Rangers are only Undead Elves, but it does not mean they have no connection to Banshees.

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A Warcraft class, not a standard RPG class. Warcraft classes need defining abilities in order to fully separate them from standard RPG classes. Every Warcraft class in the lineup has that characteristic.

Banshee form isn't enough for you?

As I said, Blizzard doesn't need to make Dark Rangers fly, but granting them a connection to Sylvanas' concept by giving them a form would do wonders to separate them from any other class.

Especialyl with the way Sylvanas already plays in Heroes of the Storm and with her zippy Haunting Wave teleports, a Banshee Form could easily be translated in similar ways. Hunters would never have access to this, and Priests aren't agile classes with zippy teleports in mind.

[Teriz]

Banshee form isn't enough for you?

Not when the only thing Banshee form does is give one the ability to “fly”.

As I said, Blizzard doesn't need to make Dark Rangers fly, but granting them a connection to Sylvanas' concept by giving them a form would do wonders to separate them from any other class.

Especialyl with the way Sylvanas already plays in Heroes of the Storm and with her zippy Haunting Wave teleports, a Banshee Form could easily be translated in similar ways. Hunters would never have access to this, and Priests aren't agile classes with zippy teleports in mind.

The problem is that this concept around a banshee is undefined and largely nonexistent. You’re essentially just guessing at this point. Meanwhile, defining abilities/concepts like Metamorphosis and Shapeshifting were fully known and concrete long before those classes debuted.

[TheRevenantHero]

Play Warcraft 3. Warcraft 3 is absolutely canon.



I'm not even asking you to agree to anything.

I'm literally pointing out the flaws in your argument and questioning your purpose in your pursuit of discussing Dark Rangers.



Then that's great to hear.

Yet that's not the problem I'm pointing out. As I said, the problem is you're dismissing the Dark Ranger with no intention of discussing it constructively. How is that arguing in good faith if your intention is not even to sustain a matter of agreeing-to-disagree with people who wish to discuss a fictional merit for Dark Rangers that are Banshees?




The point is not whether they are Banshees or not.

The point is asking you whether you would even consider the potential that Blizzard could *ALLOW* a Dark Ranger class to be Banshees.

If you are saying no and you are using WOW as a definitive source that says no, then you are being dishonest and twisting the lore to fit your narrative. Blizzard has made ZERO comment on the actual origins of Dark Rangers who are not Sylvanas. We have no defintive source that says they are *ONLY* Undead Elves and nothing more than that.

Things that were in WC3 when it comes to spells didn't make it into WoW at all. Mind Control for dark rangers is one of those spells.

You haven't pointed out any flaws. You've simply disregarded facts I've posted because they don't fit your narrative. It's incredibly annoying.

I'm going to fucking say this again. Dark rangers are NOT banshees. Sylvanas is the only one in ALL OF WACRAFT'S LORE to be a banshee that regained their physical body. Dark rangers are more like the forsaken or maybe death knights in the sense they are just run of the mill undead. They're not banshees at all and therefore would not get banshee powers.

Nathanos is the only exception when it comes to dark rangers with every single other dark ranger being elves. I'm not fucking twisting shit. I'm literally stating the current lore. So your accusation of me twisting the lore is utterly basis. You're the one guilty of that, not me. I won't consider the possibility of playable banshees. It's just not going to happen just like how dark ranger likely will never happen because we already have hunters. I'm not agreeing to disagree with people who are wrong. There is only one banshee that is a dark ranger and that's Sylvanas. She is the ONLY one in the lore. So I'm not going to discuss more dark rangers being banshees since the lore doesn't support it at all. If it was possible then Sylvanas wouldn't be the only one capable of banshee powers after reclaiming her body. Since she is the only one shown to be capable of doing this, there is no precedent for saying all dark rangers can be banshees especially since they are walking corpses and banshees are specifically incorporeal undead.

[Triceron]

The problem is that this concept around a banshee is undefined and largely nonexistent. You’re essentially just guessing at this point. Meanwhile, defining abilities/concepts like Metamorphosis and Shapeshifting were fully known and concrete long before those classes debuted.

Haunting Wave is another ability that would easily define the Dark Ranger class then.

Like Metamorphosis, it would simply have to be kept out of any existing class. Other classes can have abilities that operate similarly, but they can't have Haunting Wave specifically. It would be akin to removing Metamorphosis and Death Coil from Warlocks. The good thing is no class in the game has Haunting Wave, so that wouldn't be necessary.

Would that answer suffice?

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I'm going to fucking say this again. Dark rangers are NOT banshees. Sylvanas is the only one in ALL OF WACRAFT'S LORE to be a banshee that regained their physical body. Dark rangers are more like the forsaken or maybe death knights in the sense they are just run of the mill undead. They're not banshees at all and therefore would not get banshee powers.

I thought you said you weren't ignoring class discussion?

If you're hellbent on saying Dark Rangers are not banshees, then you're ignoring the class discussion revolving around Dark Rangers with a Banshee connection.

Ultimately, the Dark Ranger playable class is not going to be any of the Dark Ranger NPCs that are already in the game.

If you roll a Death Knight, are you a fallen Paladin or an Orc Warlock soul inside a dead Knight? No, you aren't. You are a champion of any given race that is raised by the Lich King (be it Arthas or Bolvar) who has new and unique powers that had not been seen by any other Death Knight that came before it.

If we are talking about a potential Dark Ranger class with Banshee connections, then we're not talking about the Dark Ranger NPCs that exist right now. We are talking about a new class that is playable, with its own origin story and its own connections to Sylvanas.

You can't call any of this 'headcanon' because we're talking about future possibilities for any given class. The rules don't apply to any existing NPCs.

Death Knights prior to wrath have never been depicted using Frost Powers. If WoW was a definitive source, then why is it possible for Death Knights to use Frost powers? Blizzard created that connection when they created the playable class. Never before has any Death Knight been shown to use Frost magic.

So when we talk about a Death Knight class who uses Frost Powers, would you argue that WoW Classic is definitive source saying Death Knights can't use Frost Powers? If this was 2008 and we merely wanted to discuss a potential Death Knight class using Frost magic, would you call it headcanon?

[Teriz]

Haunting Wave is another ability that would easily define the Dark Ranger class then.

Like Metamorphosis, it would simply have to be kept out of any existing class. Other classes can have abilities that operate similarly, but they can't have Haunting Wave specifically. It would be akin to removing Metamorphosis and Death Coil from Warlocks. The good thing is no class in the game has Haunting Wave, so that wouldn't be necessary.

Would that answer suffice?

Unfortunately no, because Haunting Wave in WoW differs significantly from the HotS ability. In WoW, Haunting Wave is just an AoE shadow damage ability.

[TheRevenantHero]

Haunting Wave is another ability that would easily define the Dark Ranger class then.

Like Metamorphosis, it would simply have to be kept out of any existing class. Other classes can have abilities that operate similarly, but they can't have Haunting Wave specifically. It would be akin to removing Metamorphosis and Death Coil from Warlocks. The good thing is no class in the game has Haunting Wave, so that wouldn't be necessary.

Would that answer suffice?

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I thought you said you weren't ignoring class discussion?

If you're hellbent on saying Dark Rangers are not banshees, then you're ignoring the class discussion revolving around Dark Rangers with a Banshee connection.

Ultimately, the Dark Ranger playable class is not going to be any of the Dark Ranger NPCs that are already in the game.

If you roll a Death Knight, are you a fallen Paladin or an Orc Warlock soul inside a dead Knight? No, you aren't. You are a champion of any given race that is raised by the Lich King (be it Arthas or Bolvar) who has new and unique powers that had not been seen by any other Death Knight that came before it.

If we are talking about a potential Dark Ranger class with Banshee connections, then we're not talking about the Dark Ranger NPCs that exist right now. We are talking about a new class that is playable, with its own origin story and its own connections to Sylvanas.

You can't call any of this 'headcanon' because we're talking about future possibilities for any given class. The rules don't apply to any existing NPCs.

Death Knights prior to wrath have never been depicted using Frost Powers. If WoW was a definitive source, then why is it possible for Death Knights to use Frost powers? Blizzard created that connection when they created the playable class. Never before has any Death Knight been shown to use Frost magic.

So when we talk about a Death Knight class who uses Frost Powers, would you argue that WoW Classic is definitive source saying Death Knights can't use Frost Powers? If this was 2008 and we merely wanted to discuss a potential Death Knight class using Frost magic, would you call it headcanon?

Death knights getting frost magic is linked to an alteration of their runeblade. Weird but it's an easy connection. Making dark rangers banshees is altering not only what is established with dark rangers in lore but from a gameplay perspective, you're utterly warping your base RACE. Because banshee is not a CLASS. It's a creature type. Furthermore, all banshees are both elves and women. There are no other banshee races and there are no male banshee. This has been a constant since WC3. It's another reason why it just won't fucking happen.

All you're doing is both disregarding lore and pushing for a class that is already represented with hunters.

[Triceron]

Unfortunately no, because Haunting Wave in WoW differs significantly from the HotS ability. In WoW, Haunting Wave is just an AoE shadow damage ability.

And?

I don't see how this ability doesn't define the Dark Ranger just because it doesn't operate exactly as it does in HOTS.

It's still an iconic Dark Ranger ability that carries all the themes that a Dark Ranger embodies.

Sylvanas using Haunting Wave shows her connection to the Dark Ranger concept as depicted in Heroes of the Storm. I could consider it to be a modern, iconic example of a Dark Ranger ability. Again, I'm not so attached to the ability that I think Dark Rangers would even need this, but I think it's thematic nonetheless.

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Death knights getting frost magic is linked to an alteration of their runeblade. Weird but it's an easy connection. Making dark rangers banshees is altering not only what is established with dark rangers in lore but from a gameplay perspective, you're utterly warping your base RACE. Because banshee is not a CLASS. It's a creature type. Furthermore, all banshees are both elves and women. There are no other banshee races and there are no male banshee. This has been a constant since WC3. It's another reason why it just won't fucking happen.

All you're doing is both disregarding lore and pushing for a class that is already represented with hunters.

1- A character does not have to *be* a Banshee in order to use the powers of Banshees. When Sylvanas uses Haunting Wave, she is not sending waves of *herself* at the enemy. She is commanding other spirits.
2- The male counterpart to the Banshee is a Spectre. https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Spectre
3- A Player Class' Banshee Form could be implemented as just a form, just like a Demon Hunter's Demon Form is just a form. Demon Hunters aren't literally demons, and they haven't become a full demon like Illidan.
This could be equated to Mages being able to turn into Skeletal Mage form with Necrolords covenant or Warlocks having Metamorphosis; merely a form that one adopts that homages Sylvanas specifically.
4- Death Knights and Demon Hunters warp your race. I mean, I'm not even arguing that Dark Ranger should be Banshees, but you're flat out wrong about Blizzard not warping your race for specific Class.

How is it disregarding lore if Sylvanas was the first Dark Ranger we ever knew about, and she was already defined as being more than simply a Hunter? How is it disregarding lore if I'm talking about new player classes being given unique traits and history compared to existing NPCs of the same class?

Again, there is zero evidence in WoW where Blizzard actually makes mentions that Dark Rangers are just Hunters. I don't see how you regard this as headcanon, when you can't even point out one instance where this is actually mentioned or regarded in the canon.

[TheRevenantHero]

And?

I don't see how this ability doesn't define the Dark Ranger just because it doesn't operate exactly as it does in HOTS.

It's still an iconic Dark Ranger ability that carries all the themes that a Dark Ranger embodies.

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1- A character does not have to *be* a Banshee in order to use the powers of Banshees. When Sylvanas uses Haunting Wave, she is not sending waves of *herself* at the enemy. She is commanding other spirits.
2- The male counterpart to the Banshee is a Spectre. https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Spectre
3- Banshee Form is just a form, just like a Demon Hunter's Demon Form is just a form. Demon Hunters aren't literally demons.
4- Death Knights and Demon Hunters warp your race. Why is Dark Ranger an exception to you?

How is it disregarding lore if Sylvanas was the first Dark Ranger we ever knew about, and she was already defined as being more than simply a Hunter? How is it disregarding lore if I'm talking about new player classes being given unique traits and history compared to existing NPCs of the same class?

Again, there is zero evidence in WoW where Blizzard actually makes mentions that Dark Rangers are just Hunters. I don't see how you regard this as headcanon, when you can't even point out one instance where this is actually mentioned or regarded in the canon.

1)Saying you don't have to be a banshee in order to use banshee powers is a super fucking ridiculous thing to say. I don't even know how to address that point because it's so mind-numbing.
2) Doesn't change the fact that they are incorporeal undead, something that players will likely never get access to.
3)Banshee form is not just a fucking form. There is no banshee form. You either are a banshee or you're not. Period.
4) Because you still retain most of the qualities of the base race. Banshees barely look like elves in most cases even though they are elven spirits. DKs and DHs still look mostly like their original race. Hell, death knights barely look different from their base race at all. they just get blue fire eyes and paler skin.

Because every single other dark ranger in lore follows the same qualities. They're all elves, they're all undead, and they're all mostly ranged oriented with a bow. You're disregarding lore by only talking about Sylvanas since she is a special case and literally all other dark rangers in WoW are simply undead elf hunters. Before demon hunters were playable, they shared most of their abilities with Illidan. Dark rangers do NOT share most of their abilities with Sylvanas since she has a whole slew of abilities that dark rangers aren't capable of at all.

Every single dark ranger pretty much only have hunter spells. If that isn't blatant evidence enough then you are either not properly looking or are being purposely obtuse to further your narrative.

[Triceron]

1)Saying you don't have to be a banshee in order to use banshee powers is a super fucking ridiculous thing to say. I don't even know how to address that point because it's so mind-numbing.

By Banshee powers I mean abilities like taking up a Banshee Form (which a mortal can practically do) or use Haunting Wave (sending out spirits which you command).

I am not talking about flying around and killing people by passing through them like Sylvanas does in the cinematic.

2) Doesn't change the fact that they are incorporeal undead, something that players will likely never get access to.

Reason?

3)Banshee form is not just a fucking form. There is no banshee form. You either are a banshee or you're not. Period.

Reason?

4) Because you still retain most of the qualities of the base race. Banshees barely look like elves in most cases even though they are elven spirits. DKs and DHs still look mostly like their original race. Hell, death knights barely look different from their base race at all. they just get blue fire eyes and paler skin.

Every Metamorphosis looked like Shadow Illidan before Demon Hunters were made playable. I mean, you're talking about a lack of art resources being the issue here.

Because every single other dark ranger in lore follows the same qualities. They're all elves, they're all undead, and they're all mostly ranged oriented with a bow.

And they have powers which Hunters do not have access to.

Every single dark ranger pretty much only have hunter spells. If that isn't blatant evidence enough then you are either not properly looking or are being purposely obtuse to further your narrative.

Hunters do not have Wailing Arrow, Black Arrow or Shadowburn Shot. Again, this is something you outright dismissed, to the point where you probably even forgot that they had this.

At this point, your arguments are getting more and more derivative and ill-explained. I am not going to continue discussion with you if you're blatantly spouting ultimatums of 'It will never happen' as if your opinion means anything.

[TheRevenantHero]

By Banshee powers I mean abilities like taking up a Banshee Form (which a mortal can practically do) or use Haunting Wave (sending out spirits which you command).

I am not talking about flying around and killing people by passing through them like Sylvanas does in the cinematic.



Reason?



Reason?



Every Metamorphosis looked like Shadow Illidan before Demon Hunters were made playable. I mean, you're talking about a lack of art resources being the issue here.



And they have powers which Hunters do not have access to.



Hunters do not have Wailing Arrow, Black Arrow or Shadowburn Shot. Again, this is something you outright dismissed, to the point where you probably even forgot that they had this.

At this point, your arguments are getting more and more derivative and ill-explained. I am not going to continue discussion with you if you're blatantly spouting ultimatums of 'It will never happen' as if your opinion means anything.

Banshee Form is something Sylvanas can do because...you know....SHE'S A FUCKING BANSHEE. So asking why players won't get banshee form is just you purposely being obtuse.

Incorporeal undead have a whole host of complications. Mainly, I don't see players getting the ability to pass through solid objects.

Regardless of art resources, they shared plenty of abilities with Illidan. Dark rangers share ONE ability with Sylvanas and that's Wailing Arrow. Which is the only spell they have that hunters don't have. One fucking spell isn't enough to justify playable dark rangers.

Hunters used to have Black Arrow. Shadowburn Shot is LITERALLY just Explosive Shot that does shadow damage instead of fire damage. So yes, I'm going to dismiss it. I haven't been stating opinions. I've been stating facts that are shown to us in game. It's a fact that dark rangers really aren't nothing more than undead elf hunters. Just because you are either unwilling or incapable of accepting facts is a you problem.

[Triceron]

Banshee Form is something Sylvanas can do because...you know....SHE'S A FUCKING BANSHEE. So asking why players won't get banshee form is just you purposely being obtuse.

? Why are we asking why players *won't* get a Banshee form if we're talking about a possible future Class that is designed around Sylvanas?

I mean that's like implying Death Knights should not have any Frost powers because they don't specifically wield Frostmourne. If you could abstract a reason for them to use it simply through altering runes, as weird as it seems, then why can't you fathom any other possible way for characters to use a Banshee form?

Warlocks literally learned to use Metamorphosis just by observing Illidan. The ability is not exactly what Demon Hunters use, but it gets the job done.

Warlocks even had Glyph of Demon Hunting which allowed them a secondary feature of turning into a different type of Demon Form that retains their original looks.

In WoW lore, only Demon Hunters were able to use Metamorphosis because of the specific ritual sacrifice that allowed them to use these powers. Can you not even acknowledge that Blizzard changed their own lore to allow Warlocks to use this ability?

Incorporeal undead have a whole host of complications. Mainly, I don't see players getting the ability to pass through solid objects.

Then they don't need to. As I said, a form is just a form.

Shadow Form turns you into a shadowy apparition that you can see through, and you can't pass through solid objects either.

Regardless of art resources, they shared plenty of abilities with Illidan. Dark rangers share ONE ability with Sylvanas and that's Wailing Arrow. Which is the only spell they have that hunters don't have. One fucking spell isn't enough to justify playable dark rangers.

I didn't say it was going to justify a playable Dark Ranger.

You seem focused on Dark Rangers being playable, while I'm simply arguing that you can't dismiss them on the basis that the NPCs in WoW aren't showing off banshee powers like Sylvanas.

My point is *nothing stops Blizzard* from defining Dark Ranger differently from what you regard Dark Ranger through the WoW NPC.

Hunters used to have Black Arrow. Shadowburn Shot is LITERALLY just Explosive Shot that does shadow damage instead of fire damage. So yes, I'm going to dismiss it. I haven't been stating opinions. I've been stating facts that are shown to us in game. It's a fact that dark rangers really aren't nothing more than undead elf hunters. Just because you are either unwilling or incapable of accepting facts is a you problem.

Er, what you said here is just an opinion.

You even replied to Ielenia that you didn't know there was a difference between Hunter Black Arrow and Dark Ranger Black Arrow. You still aren't regarding that there is a difference.

Hunters version of Black arrow summoned dark beasts. Dark Rangers create skeletons. There is a thematic difference between these themes. A Hunter would not summon skeletons, since their overall theme is based on Beasts, and that's how Black Arrow was modified to fit the class.


You just used your opinion right now to say Shadowburn shot is just explosive shot. That's not a fact. Hunters do not have this ability, so you're simply ignoring the fact a difference exists.

Again, I'm not using this as *proof* that a Dark Ranger would be playable. I'm *debunking your statements* that there are no differences.

I agree that a Dark Ranger would not likely be playable. I agree that there's not a significant amount of unique or interesting material to create an entire new Dark Ranger class out of.

However, I would not accept a blatant dishonest lie that says WoW is a definitive source saying that Dark Rangers are just Hunters. There is no evidence for that, and that is what I'm pointing out to you. The fact that you are saying there are literally no differences, then even acknowleding that there are differences that exist.