{TV} The Falcon and the Winter Soldier

[formerShandalay]

Uh, you don't think white people were bigoted to other white people back then? add a mutant, and you think people wouldn't assume he is other? "well, this mutant has god-like powers, but see, his skin is white, so it's ok!"...

No, I think the x-men story would come into play, less racism, but replaced with, "speciesism"? humans vs mutants.

whatever, good night.

Of course they were bigoted to other white people too, that's out of the question. What I'm trying to say is, it doesn't matter what you take as an example of 'the other' and 'powers that be'. The Powers that be always want to keep their power and keep the others disenfrachised, by any means neccessary. Especially in Marvel comics there have been lots and lots of examples for that, we already named several of them.
In this story's case it's about black people and to a lesser extend the people in the GRC camps (a stand in for refugees, I'd wager) and how they deal with the powers holding them down. Some with bitterness, some fighting back, some trying to change the system from within.
And yea, once you bring in mutants, they are the example for people being disenfranchised, that's what I was saying. And all of those stories are stories about misogynists and their -isms, be they racism, sexism or whatever. Discrimination. They took one example that is rooted in the times the viewership can relate to and which is hotly debated at the moment anyways, but of course it's always about the same thing, no matter which marginalized group you choose to highlight.
As I said, I don't know why it's any different with this story than with all the other stories.

Or maybe it wasn't actually different, because when Captain America was punching Hitler, people freaked out too.^^

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

You are either having problems with reading between the lines, or didn't watch the episode. So let me quote word for word isiah's words, instead of you posting your utter nonsense.

I think you're the one having trouble reading between the lines. Steve, the White Super Soldier, gets to be a big celebrity and a hero. Isaiah, The Black Super Soldier, is kept secret and experimented on.

MEANING they died off like soldiers do, in battle or in the hospital. He is speaking of a time-period when they eventually dissapeared, from the time they got rescued to they eventually one by one died off. Did you wave off that comment n think it has no impact?

They didn't die off like soldiers do. They died off because they were experimented on.

I rest my case.

And they didn't experiment on Steve to figure out why the Serum worked. That's the point you are intentionally missing.

[Kallisto]

So we quite literally have someone bitching about marvel taking on social issues when Marvel was pretty much founded to make stories based on taking on social issues. Saying how they prefer X-Men while bitching about issues regarding African Americans in F&TWS when X-Men was pretty much founded and a parallel to the civil rights movement that came about because of how veterans like Isaiah and other African Americans were treated for decades.

If people are upset that marvel are "SJW" and just now being put off. What did they think Marvel was about for the last 50+ years? Kapow, Bang, Pew Pew?

[Ausr]

So we quite literally have someone bitching about marvel taking on social issues when Marvel was pretty much founded to make stories based on taking on social issues. Saying how they prefer X-Men while bitching about issues regarding African Americans in F&TWS when X-Men was pretty much founded and a parallel to the civil rights movement that came about because of how veterans like Isaiah and other African Americans were treated for decades.

If people are upset that marvel are "SJW" and just now being put off. What did they think Marvel was about for the last 50+ years? Kapow, Bang, Pew Pew?

I don't believe Ihavewaffles even has a clue what is going on from reading his posts or even basic bitch knowledge of the MCU. Sounds like he needs to say "I don't know." Like it's fine to say it.

[Endus]

Why show start so good n now this crap about color

If you want an echo chamber where issues of race don't ever get discussed by media, you're gonna be disappointed. It's a major social issue and that's why it crops up so often as a major theme in stuff like this.

Also, it isn't happening "now"; this show's been about race since Episode 1. And Marvel's been making major points against bigotry since the '60s, at a minimum. If you don't like stuff that speaks on issues like race, then you wouldn't like Marvel content, and I don't know why you're even here on the first place, demanding that Marvel change their entire approach to story writing just because it makes you uncomfortable.

[Volardelis]

if it was about looks, steve would never have gotten the job, he couldn't even get into the army

it's about the inside.

That is the point though. Everyone but Eriskine was focused on looks. They wanted someone who could look like the perfect soldier, not someone who actually was through their beliefs and personality.

[Illusions]

So we quite literally have someone bitching about marvel taking on social issues when Marvel was pretty much founded to make stories based on taking on social issues.

Marvel's focused on tackling social issues yet Stucky is yet to be canon, smh Marvel

jk

I'm actually glad the show's tackling racial and societal issues. Might feel a bit on the nose in current climate, but might be especially important now. Is it the first superhero (of any universe) show/movie that also dives into these issues further? I'm not very big on superhero content, so I'm wondering.

[Endus]

Luke Cage got into it.

I'd say that both Luke Cage and Black Panther got into race issues from a completely different perspective; both were framed very much a point of view and in a setting that highlit black culture, either Harlem specifically with Cage, or the fictional meta-Africa that Wakanda represents, pulling from diverse real-world cultures. Falcon and Winter Soldier isn't framed with that kind of point of view; we get a bit with Sam, but it's set within a broader narrative on the meanings of symbols and other broader concepts; the race component is an integral part of those themes, but it isn't the entire theme itself, as it was with those other properties (IMO).

However, I think Falcon and Winter Soldier is picking at a scab very directly, and in a way that I don't think they have a clear resolution planned. I think the legacy of damage and harm is the point. The shield represents an America-that-should-have-been, through the persona of Steve Rogers; he was better than the USA deserved, and ideal that his country never lived up to. It also, now, represents Walker; he carried it a much shorter time, but that graphic murder in broad daylight, captured by a hundred cameras from every direction, that's affected how everyone sees the shield. And it's woken them up to the America-that-is, as incarnated in Walker himself. That's a contrast that doesn't go away.

That's why Isaiah Bradley rejects the shield so concretely; he's always lived in the shadows of the reality, never having the light of that idealism touch on him or his brothers in the program. He never saw Steve as that kind of ideal, because he's lived through the darker truth. How do you make that symbol a symbol of hope, again? You can't just point to the idealized hope; the truth behind it's been exposed to everyone.

I think where they're going is that Sam needs to reject that hope, and the reality, both. Reject the symbol and everything it once claimed to stand for. He can't be Captain America, because America isn't backing him in the first place. I'm up in the air as to whether he's going to repaint the shield and use it as Falcon, or if we've got some shenanigans still in store for Ep 6 that will lead to either the shield being destroyed, or Sam giving it to Bucky directly (who has similar-but-different anti-Americanisms in his character that I won't expand on here because this is already too long), to push Bucky's need to make amends and be his own person; a new facing for the shield to recharacterize it for either of them is necessary at this point, IMO. Particular since we saw Walker hammering out his own knockoff, which had the classic ring pattern; there needs to be a visual distinction made.

Honestly, the entire show has been so unabashedly and deeply anti-American (in the cultural sense, with an aim to reconstructing a new American identity that rejects its own historical values) that I'm honestly more than a little shocked. It's a pretty deep and unapologetic rejection of the America-that-is, as enshrined in Walker himself. Sam represents black America, and Bucky represents abandoned veterans cast aside when they were no longer of use. Isaiah Bradley is both, and he rejects America more than either of them do alone. The show's not wrong to be saying these things, I'm just shocked they're actually having the cajones to do so.

[eschatological]

what narrative? current events? Nope. Isiah literally says he was put in jail cuz he was the last living super soldier n they wanted scientific answers, race is just something he would assume in his bitterness due to past afro-american history. But the generals aren't going to let the last super soldier go off n die too and be left with nothing.

He says, and I quote "trying to figure out why the serum worked"
.

The story he told was a clue: it was the exact same thing Steve did in the first Captain America movie, for which he was lauded and hailed as a hero. There was no destruction of the serum, there was no discontinuation of the program, they could have continued to work on it while championing Isaiah....but they didn't.

Don't u mean all his credentials, medals, how he was under pressure n saved his buddies n jumped on a grenade how many times? 4?

Walker admitted himself last episode that the things he and Hoskins did to earn those medals weren't objectively good. He obviously has serious trauma from it.

- - - Updated - - -

Marvel's focused on tackling social issues yet Stucky is yet to be canon, smh Marvel

jk

I'm actually glad the show's tackling racial and societal issues. Might feel a bit on the nose in current climate, but might be especially important now. Is it the first superhero (of any universe) show/movie that also dives into these issues further? I'm not very big on superhero content, so I'm wondering.

The 1 season one-off of the new, updated Watchmen on HBO was about issues like this. A story based on black superheroes being pushed out of the limelight, hiding in whiteface, updating the themes of Moore's original work to a modern 2018 setting and how it would logically play out. And, making Dr. Manhattan (who can look like anyone) a black man because he fell in love with a black woman. People like the poster you're quoting freaked the fuck out about that too, and missed probably the best season of superhero television ever. It's better than this show and WandaVision, imo.

[bmjclark]

As a bit of a Bucky fanboy, I'm just sad he isn't going to end up with the shield. This episode kind of felt like a totally different show and honestly kind of felt like it killed the momentum from last week. I think it handled the discussions about race well it just felt like half the episode was filler

[s_bushido]

Honestly, the entire show has been so unabashedly and deeply anti-American (in the cultural sense, with an aim to reconstructing a new American identity that rejects its own historical values) that I'm honestly more than a little shocked. It's a pretty deep and unapologetic rejection of the America-that-is, as enshrined in Walker himself. Sam represents black America, and Bucky represents abandoned veterans cast aside when they were no longer of use. Isaiah Bradley is both, and he rejects America more than either of them do alone. The show's not wrong to be saying these things, I'm just shocked they're actually having the cajones to do so.

Problem with this assessment is that there's every likelihood that the show's going to end with Sam officially taking up the mantle of Captain America. So even if there are subversive themes like this, they can feel pretty comfortable doing it because things will be status quo when its all over.

Besides, they've already set the precedent for this anti-authority stuff being well-received in both CA: The Winter Soldier and Civil War (and to a lesser extent in Iron Man 2 with Tony showing the Senate his ass).

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Okay, I’m honestly just really annoyed by the beginning fight scene with Walker. They really made Bucky weaker. This dude was comparable to Steve in strength, agility, fighting... he mimicked him when they fought, only being better when it came to handling a knife. Yet here’s Walker kicking his ass, and his arm (the one that’s supposed to be even tougher than his initial one) malfunctions.

What a load of shit.

They didn't make Bucky weaker. John is stronger.

[formerShandalay]

Okay, I’m honestly just really annoyed by the beginning fight scene with Walker. They really made Bucky weaker. This dude was comparable to Steve in strength, agility, fighting... he mimicked him when they fought, only being better when it came to handling a knife. Yet here’s Walker kicking his ass, and his arm (the one that’s supposed to be even tougher than his initial one) malfunctions.

What a load of shit.

The arm malfunction is call back to the fight in Winter Soldier, where Black Widow disabled Winter Soldier's arm with her electric ... sticky, whatever that was. She throws it onto his arm and it disables the arm for a moment. Although I do agree it was strange to see this happen to Vibranium.
I also think the Serum Walker got was stronger, because I don't think Steve ever slammed the Winter Soldier into a wall or pillar just by throwing it at him. And even to break Walker's arm they not only had to use 2 people, but also Sam's rocket backpack and then it still took several moments. Those rockets were able to carry Steve and Sam's weight, so that is some serious boost they give and even that didn't immediately break an arm that was being held in a super awkward position in the first place.
And while I would have loved to see Bucky wipe the floor with Walker, he also didn't have grenade launchers and an army behind him like he did in Winter Soldier against Steve. And he did lose against Steve too.

[qwerty123456]

I think you're the one having trouble reading between the lines. Steve, the White Super Soldier, gets to be a big celebrity and a hero. Isaiah, The Black Super Soldier, is kept secret and experimented on.

And they didn't experiment on Steve to figure out why the Serum worked. That's the point you are intentionally missing.

1. The times were different and so were the wars.
2. Steve was seen as a great propaganda device for the war and there wasn't as much American propaganda for the Korean war.
3. Steve became a popsicle during a war and wasn't thawed out until decades later when they already had Isaiah to experiment on.
4. They did take a bunch of his blood in an attempt to recreate the serum.

It would have been interesting if they had made Isaiah a Vietnam vet and had him shit on by civilians as well but then I think that would have taken would have taken away from the racial storyline and Walker kinda fills the storyline of how different we treat our soldiers from different times.

I also feel like if they really wanted to push the race issue then they should have done something different with US Agent and Battlestar. Cause Walker shows that even a white dude will get thrown under the bus when the Government deems it necessary. Like what if both Lemar and John had snapped and caught on camera and John got off lightly and Lemar imprisoned and shit for the exact same thing. That probably would have been overkill though. Maybe that's just me wishing they hadn't killed off Lemar.

[Endus]

Problem with this assessment is that there's every likelihood that the show's going to end with Sam officially taking up the mantle of Captain America. So even if there are subversive themes like this, they can feel pretty comfortable doing it because things will be status quo when its all over.

Besides, they've already set the precedent for this anti-authority stuff being well-received in both CA: The Winter Soldier and Civil War (and to a lesser extent in Iron Man 2 with Tony showing the Senate his ass).

I dunno. That's what I thought when the show started, but they've spent so much if the narrative on really three main points;

1> How any symbol carries with it a legacy, and anyone using that symbol affects that legacy, irrevocably becoming a part of and fundamentally changing that legacy.
2> How Steve set an impossible standard.
3> How both Sam and Bucky need to find their own paths forward to truly self-realize.

Both Sam and Bucky had tied their identity in with Steve, and without that tentpole, they're both a bit lost. Bucky more than Sam, because Bucky really had nothing else, but even Sam had relied on his family as a second tentpole, and Sam trying to find a place with his family is a major subplot.

With Walker's actions, the symbol of the shield and mantle of Captain America is now indelibly stained. That stain is never coming out. When you say "Captain America", people no longer just see Steve, they also see Walker standing over a dead body, blood dripping off the shield. That'll be true forever.

Sam had that whole thing with the kid, where the kid called him "Black Falcon", and the stuff with Isaiah, coming to realize he'd only ever be "Black Captain America", never just "Captain America".

Bucky's struggled too hard to realize he needs to truly come to terms with himself for him to follow in anyone else's shadow, not without losing ground there.

I honestly don't see "Captain America" being a thing, moving forward. I think either Bucky or Sam could carry the shield, with a repaint so it carries a new symbol. Probably a deviation from the comics. One thought I had with the new Wakanda gear Sam got; the Wakandans like colors. We've got Black Panther, and Bucky is "White Wolf". Given the offhand reference to the Redtails by Isaiah, maybe "Red Falcon"? Heck, it would even forestall calling him "Black Red Falcon", because that's just fuckin' silly.

I don't think there even needs to be a "Captain America". The only people who really need that to be a thing is the US government, and solely as a PR stunt thing. Neither Bucky nor Sam need that title, and honestly, taking it up seems like them becoming an also-ran to Steve, rather than fully self-realizing as unique individuals unto themselves. That's the problem Walker had; he tried to fill Steve's shoes rather than just being himself, he pushed himself WAY too far and too hard.

I think the whole show boils down to explaining why there will not ever be a new Captain America.

[Endus]

I also feel like if they really wanted to push the race issue then they should have done something different with US Agent and Battlestar. Cause Walker shows that even a white dude will get thrown under the bus when the Government deems it necessary.

In what universe do you think Walker got "thrown under the bus"?

He murdered a guy. Who was trying to surrender. In broad daylight. While filmed by like 100 bystanders.

He didn't even get court-martialed. The US Government would have been entirely in the right to put Walker in a stockade for the rest of his natural life. Most likely, the Raft, since he's supered up and they'd need to contain him. Letting him just walk away? That's letting him off super lightly, and they explicitly state that outright in the show. He got a handshake and a "fare ye well" and was allowed to go off and live whatever life he'd choose to. He wasn't even dishonorably discharged. He got punished less than some soldiers who get drunk and do something stupid while on-duty.

- - - Updated - - -

Idk. Certainly seems like Sam is taking up the shield considering his training montage. I guess we’ll see what he’s called in a little under a week.

The shield, yes. The shield isn't going anywhere. The bit where the US government admits they don't actually even own the shield, technically, makes it clear they're separating that piece of tech from the US government, narratively.

If I pulled that "Red Falcon" idea out of my butt and it turns out true (seriously, it's a WILD guess based on practically nothing), I'm picturing the shield with a red/white/black color scheme, without any blue. If Bucky takes it up, maybe white with a wolf motif, since the closest thing he has to a new superhero name is the "White Wolf" thing the Wakandans gave him.

The metal disk will still exist, and still be biffed at people's heads. I don't know who'll be doing the biffing, at this point; seems like Sam, could still be Bucky. I don't think the Captain America mantle or the iconography of the shield are gonna survive the show. They'd have to walk back nearly everything they've said with this narrative to make either of the boys be "Captain America", at this point, IMO. And I don't see that happening.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

1. The times were different and so were the wars.

The times between 1940 and 1950 really aren't that different. All wars are different...but WWII had much larger stakes. The kind of war you might want to have a bunch of Super Soldiers for.

2. Steve was seen as a great propaganda device for the war and there wasn't as much American propaganda for the Korean war.

And a black Super Soldier wouldn't have been a great propaganda device.

3. Steve became a popsicle during a war and wasn't thawed out until decades later when they already had Isaiah to experiment on.

They no longer had Isaiah by the time Steve was thawed out.

4. They did take a bunch of his blood in an attempt to recreate the serum.

Which they could have just done with Isaiah. But instead they went much further.

[eschatological]

Overall, though, I didn’t enjoy this episode. It was too woke and felt like a filler episode.... and I don’t really like Sam’s sister. I find her annoying.

It was literally the continuation of the themes of episode 2. In this same series, 3 weeks ago.

Like, the whole show has been an allegory for the struggle of young black men as feeling truly American or represented by the red, white and blue.

And it was written 20 years ago.

[Depakote]

This is why Walker's an interesting character. For better or worse he's US military through and through, who does whatever it takes to get the job done - much like with US military history, wether that makes him the "hero" or "villain" is the debate.

They literally just tried to murder him and killed his best friend. The FlagSmashers had made it clear they wanted him dead. The guy he killed was even holding him back so Karli could try and drive a knife into his heart, and then restrained him while his friend was killed.

Sure, he looked like he maybe felt regret before he ran away, but that doesn't make him less guity in his part in it (and their other bombings and killing civilians).

So when Walker had overpowered the guy by the fountain who'd literally just been trying to kill him and murdered his best friend...

SHOULD you stop as soon as he was overpowered and the guy was surrendering? Hell yes!

But would you?

He's not the one that killed his friend though.

[Depakote]

Madam Hydra isn’t the government. The government asked for the shield back. And I wouldn’t be surprised if Sam was called Cap for a while since he passed the Falcon mantle on this week.

The shield doesn't belong to the government.