Why do beings of Death mostly use Shadow magic?

[Gaidax]

Why Shadowlands are not called Deathlands?

Not everything "shadow" is tied to void.

[Nerovar]

It's entirely this. Ingame spell-schools are pretty much entirely game mechanics and have little to no connection to the lore types of magic.

Necrolord abilities deal shadow damage, but lorewise, it's all Necromancy aka Death magic. Kyrian is all arcane, but also Necromancy. Night Fae has a lot of nature damage, but is, too, Necromancy.

No, it's not entirely this. OP talked about things that go beyond mere game mechanics. It's still the Shadowlands and it goes all the way back to the WC3 Necromancer saying things like "What does the Shadow will?/As the Shadow wills./The shadows beckon." because the whole idea predates Blizzard's weird cosmic chart they introduced in late WoD.

Undead aligned NPCs always had Shadow abilities like "Shadow Bolt", "Shadow Form", "Shadow Fissure", "Veil of Shadow" which are not just tied to Shadow because of the damage type.

[huth]

No, it's not entirely this.

Yes, it is. Yes, the OP talked about other things, too. But the confusion comes from spell schools being purely game mechanics with no lore implications.

You're throwing unrelated stuff into it and muddying up the issue for no good reason, though. What the NPCs ingame say isn't really relevant; they're not infallible. Shadow isn't technically an actual element, it's just flavouring. "Shadow" abilities are also hardly specific to undead or limited to them. Any kind of black magic type caster has a reasonable chance of having them. Undead just have a disproportionately large number of 'dark' casters.

[Nerovar]

Yes, it is. Yes, the OP talked about other things, too. But the confusion comes from spell schools being purely game mechanics with no lore implications.

You're throwing unrelated stuff into it and muddying up the issue for no good reason, though. What the NPCs ingame say isn't really relevant; they're not infallible. Shadow isn't technically an actual element, it's just flavouring. "Shadow" abilities are also hardly specific to undead or limited to them. Any kind of black magic type caster has a reasonable chance of having them. Undead just have a disproportionately large number of 'dark' casters.

I mean, those are pretty weak points. NPCs aren't infallible so they don't know what forces they're serving or what power they're drawing from? Come on.

Also what's your point about Shadow magic being specific to/limited to undead? No one claimed this.

Why does any kind of "black magic type caster" have a chance of having Shadow magic? Maybe it's because Shadow magic used to be the baseline evil magic juice before Blizzard decided to intrinsically tie it to Old Gods/Void Lords and invent a new magic type that is exclusively used by the undead...

[huth]

Also what's your point about Shadow magic being specific to/limited to undead? No one claimed this.

Well, if it isn't, then your point is largely meaningless.

There is no magic exclusively used by undead. Shadow is pretty much just a generic term for any dark magics in-universe, not referring to any magic in particular.

In the time you refer to, there wasn't really any real established magic lore yet.

[Nerovar]

Well, if it isn't, then your point is largely meaningless.

There is no magic exclusively used by undead. Shadow is pretty much just a generic term for any dark magics in-universe, not referring to any magic in particular.

In the time you refer to, there wasn't really any real established magic lore yet.

The point was that the magic that was previously associated with undead was "Shadow magic" and not "Death magic" because the modern term "Death magic" didn't really exist as a descriptive term back then. Historically, undead were always animated with Shadow magic (which is also why they were always vulnerable to the Light - the polar opposite of Shadow) or in rare cases Fel magic (sacrificial magic). This was true in the war of the ancients, it was true when the orc warlorcks of the Shadow council created the first Death Knights and it was true when the Scourge was created on Azeroth.

This is why so many Undead use Shadow magic to this day and are still strongly associated with it despite Blizzard's efforts of transforming the Warcraft universe into a more high fantasy setting with very clear-cut distinct magic types. Whether you agree with this approach or not, a side effect will always be that there's some sort of dissonance between the older concepts and the new ones.

[Erleichda]

Light/Holy and life have the same problem of having fairly vague separation in places. Light is seen more often as an anti-death magic than anti-void.

It seems like they could clean this up a lot without making gameplay problems if they wanted to. Now that there aren't differences between the schools in terms of resists adding another school to distinguish between "void" and "death" and just reassigning the abilities in the obvious ways would be fine and probably nice flavor. They could probably add all 12 of the magic types on that big wow magic wheel with minimal balance tweaking needed. In most cases where schools would get split up it would be along class lines anyway so the niche consideration about interrupts wouldn't even be a problem.

Some of those are a bit odd though. Some of the relative placements of schools or factions is a bit odd too. Probably mostly because it is trying to serve dual purpose as a map of magic types and what are basically cosmic level political alignments which aren't always about polar opposites fighting.

[rowaasr13]

Is there any functional difference between magic schools at this point? What difference does it make what school it is?

Only Anima Powers in SL take school in account. Also some specs can use some backup spells that are usually out of priority when locked in main school - i.e. Corruption for Destruction Warlock.

Otherwise the last time schools and resistances mattered was in TBC.

[huth]

The point was that the magic that was previously associated with undead was "Shadow magic" and not "Death magic" because the modern term "Death magic" didn't really exist as a descriptive term back then. Historically, undead were always animated with Shadow magic (which is also why they were always vulnerable to the Light - the polar opposite of Shadow) or in rare cases Fel magic (sacrificial magic). This was true in the war of the ancients, it was true when the orc warlorcks of the Shadow council created the first Death Knights and it was true when the Scourge was created on Azeroth.

This is why so many Undead use Shadow magic to this day and are still strongly associated with it despite Blizzard's efforts of transforming the Warcraft universe into a more high fantasy setting with very clear-cut distinct magic types. Whether you agree with this approach or not, a side effect will always be that there's some sort of dissonance between the older concepts and the new ones.

Your mistake is that you assume they're privy to the same information we, as players, are. In-game casters aren't all aware of the 6 cosmic forces and their implications on magic use. A lot of the early information was in-character and thus subject to all the errors these people made.

For that matter, the schools never cleanly matched with the types of magic available even in vanilla. You're reading information into the system that simply isn't there.

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Some of those are a bit odd though. Some of the relative placements of schools or factions is a bit odd too. Probably mostly because it is trying to serve dual purpose as a map of magic types and what are basically cosmic level political alignments which aren't always about polar opposites fighting.

Blizzard straight-up said that the placement is not indicative of their relationships. They placed them to make a nice image, not to show how they relate to one another.

- - - Updated - - -

Only Anima Powers in SL take school in account. Also some specs can use some backup spells that are usually out of priority when locked in main school - i.e. Corruption for Destruction Warlock.

Otherwise the last time schools and resistances mattered was in TBC.

Don't forget Balance. Lock out one school, they'll just blast you with the other.

[Nerovar]

Your mistake is that you assume they're privy to the same information we, as players, are. In-game casters aren't all aware of the 6 cosmic forces and their implications on magic use. A lot of the early information was in-character and thus subject to all the errors these people made.

For that matter, the schools never cleanly matched with the types of magic available even in vanilla. You're reading information into the system that simply isn't there.

You're basing your assumption that there wasn't some kind of system on what exactly? Because I know that the authors who worked on older Warcraft lore had pretty extensive thoughts about these matters.
Furthermore, I gave many concrete examples which aren't really prone to misinterpretation. Undead being repelled by the Light was a function of their shadowy existence. Similarly, the fact that almost all Scourge aligned NPCs throw around spells with "Shadow" in the name isn't some sort of in-universe statement rooted in their lack of knowledge about "cosmic powers" - it's a fact that can't really explained away by saying "Classic WoW only had these spell schools".

We basically went from

• Old: the Burning Legion having no knowledge of any Death aligned magic (because the concept didn't really exist back then) since the Nathrezim were primoridal demons that were born of the Nether (and not the Shadowlands) utilizing necromancy either through the use of Shadow magic or in some cases Fel magic (in the Arthas novel it was hinted that the plague had Fel origins due to its green glow, its effect on the environment and its life-draining properties) and the biggest undead being was a mere creation of a demon locked in an ice shard from the Twisting Nether which is why pretty much everything Scourge aligned characters cast is either visually similar to Fel/Shadow or even outright has Shadow in its name.
  ->Undead as a perversion of living beings are a derivative of demonic and shadow magic
  ->they only exist through and because of the Burning Legion but established themselves as an independent force

To

• New: a Death aligned race from the Shadowlands creates a Fel corrupted subspecies of themselves to conquer a bunch of worlds, corrupt Sargeras who would then form the Burning Legion. Thousands of years later they manipulate one of his lieutenants to use artifacts from the Shadowlands to create the Lich King so their special Death magic could finally end up on Azeroth even though the minions of the Lich King still "randomly" use Shadow spells instead of Death magic
  ->Undead as their own immanent cosmic force with their very own brand of magic
  ->their historical relation to the Burning Legion is basically incidental

[huth]

Similarly, the fact that almost all Scourge aligned NPCs throw around spells with "Shadow" in the name isn't some sort of in-universe statement rooted in their lack of knowledge about "cosmic powers" - it's a fact that can't really explained away by saying "Classic WoW only had these spell schools".

Almost all, except for all the ones that don't. Which is a fairly large number. A lot, if not most, of Scourge NPCs aren't even casters to begin with, and there were plenty of Frost spells as well.

[Narwhalosh Whalescream]

Because they are eeeeeeeviiil.

[shise]

Mainly to stay cool. Death comes at a smelly cost, so the shade helps wit the whole festering issue.

------------------

I think it makes sense Necrotic and shadow magic have always been linked, although they do come from different sources.

[Ohvul]

Death implies life? Void implies neither life nor death but the absence of both.

It makes sense for life and death bound forces to call upon void, or light but neither can be strictly bound to one or the other as by definition the existence of life or death requires the existence of the other, something contradictory to a primal void or light based force.

Therefore shadow and life can be considered shadows of the more primal forces of light and void which is why we see both the dead and living utilizing both "shadowed" forces of nature:light and shadow:dark

[Rusken]

It's because Blizzard is lazy and doesn't want to add a new damage type so they just use "shadow" despite death magic having nothing to do with the Void.

Or moreso there's no reason to differentiate between them other than to satisfy the ultimate lore buffs who could possible care about such things.

[Raisei]

I think the problem are visuals. We see "dark" magic and think of Shadow. But infact what Sylvanas was using was Death Magic and Domination Magic (the chains), it looks very similar, but is a different school. Hence why Jaina and Talryssa could not make out what it is.

However a lot of this problem does indeed stem from the universe gradually growing and things that weren't explained in the past being filled with meaning. Like we are now probably getting an explanation why the Dreadlords were masters of Necromany and why Frostmourne has necromantic powers even though no one in the Maw uses Necromancy. But there is also the fact that Warlocks use both Fel and Void, sometimes even summoning a being of Void (and calling it a demon) and other bits.
My best try at making lore sense of it is that anyone can tap into these powers without being aligned with their domain, it's just about knowing "how". Hence why Priests can use Shadow spells even if they are Light-aligned and Void Elves can use Holy spells.

The void sees it as no different from the other cosmic powers, neither enemy nor a friend but simply another.

The fact that Alleria's voices went berserk near Sylvanas and pushed the older Windrunner to kill her sister because she serves "the enemy of all" disproves this, though. The Void seemed downright afraid of Death.

Same goes for most non-opposing forces it seems.
Life can cooperate just fine with void and fel, even if it is evil from our llife/ light / order based point of view.

The Void has tried and succeeded to corrupt the Life dimension in the form of the Emerald Nightmare. They may not be directly opposed, but they are certainly not cooperating. Not sure where Life and Fel worked together, during the Legion invasion Val'sharah was certainly not friendly to the demons.

The only Forces we know are working together or at least along side each other are Light and Life with Elune being strangely connected to both.

[loras]

I think the problem are visuals. We see "dark" magic and think of Shadow. But infact what Sylvanas was using was Death Magic and Domination Magic (the chains), it looks very similar, but is a different school. Hence why Jaina and Talryssa could not make out what it is.

However a lot of this problem does indeed stem from the universe gradually growing and things that weren't explained in the past being filled with meaning. Like we are now probably getting an explanation why the Dreadlords were masters of Necromany and why Frostmourne has necromantic powers even though no one in the Maw uses Necromancy. But there is also the fact that Warlocks use both Fel and Void, sometimes even summoning a being of Void (and calling it a demon) and other bits.
My best try at making lore sense of it is that anyone can tap into these powers without being aligned with their domain, it's just about knowing "how". Hence why Priests can use Shadow spells even if they are Light-aligned and Void Elves can use Holy spells.



The fact that Alleria's voices went berserk near Sylvanas and pushed the older Windrunner to kill her sister because she serves "the enemy of all" disproves this, though. The Void seemed downright afraid of Death.



The Void has tried and succeeded to corrupt the Life dimension in the form of the Emerald Nightmare. They may not be directly opposed, but they are certainly not cooperating. Not sure where Life and Fel worked together, during the Legion invasion Val'sharah was certainly not friendly to the demons.

The only Forces we know are working together or at least along side each other are Light and Life with Elune being strangely connected to both.

One instance does not prove anything, especially as void magic tends to be attuned to emotion most of all cosmic powers (see i.e. the psychic nature of the old gods' powers, of shadow priests and the nature of the sha). The voices going berserk was a dark reflection of Alleria's emotions,nothing more.

The void has never had trouble converting, subverting or corrupting creatures of death, as the presence of various forsaken among i.e. the twilight's hammer proves, though in expanded media such as hearthstone it is even blunter as void-eyes grow from corrupted scourge ghouls.



And life, like death, is treacherous; it melds, with the void, with the nightmare, with the fel. Keep in mind that the emerald dream is a titan-curated subrealm, apparantly quite distinct from the shadowlands in that sense; they're not true servants of life, but rather of life subjugated by order. For life unbound the sporemounds of Draenor are a better example.

[Ophenia]

But is the Shadowlands even the Realm of Death ?

I mean... Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's now established that all the beings linked to a cosmic power go back to the Cosmic Power's plane when dying. Demons to Twisting Nether, Titans are supposed to go to the Plane of Order/Arcane, and very likely the same for Light/Void stuff.
Why is everything tainted by the "Life" cosmic power go to the "Death" realm when they cease to exist, instead of going to a "Life afterlife" or whatever ? That's as weird as if a Titan would go to the Twisting Nether upon dying.

So maybe I've missed something somewhere that make Life/Death different from the other four, or I'm overthinking that shit, but maybe the Shadowlands... are not a realm of death *puts tinfoil hat*

[huth]

But is the Shadowlands even the Realm of Death ?

To the best of our knowledge, yes. Blizzard says it is, and they're the ones making the lore. You're pretty much trying to argue with the people who can simply make it so that you're wrong.

[Raisei]

One instance does not prove anything, especially as void magic tends to be attuned to emotion most of all cosmic powers (see i.e. the psychic nature of the old gods' powers, of shadow priests and the nature of the sha). The voices going berserk was a dark reflection of Alleria's emotions,nothing more.

Uh huh. You got any sort of source for that bit on Alleria? Because no where (as far as I am aware) has that been stated. The Voices she and the other Void Elves are hearing come from the Void itself, they are the corrupting influence they have to resist. It's precisely her emotions (mainly her love for her son, husband and sister Vareesa) that keep also her to fight against this influence.

As for the "one instance". There is also the fact that Void tried to invade Bastion and was subsequently beaten back. But we are only now learning more about these things. Maybe at the end of the expansion we have a clearer picture of the cosmic forces.

The void has never had trouble converting, subverting or corrupting creatures of death

Actually it did. In Wrath it was stated that undead are immune to the wispers of the Void, which is why Icecrown could be build from the literal blood of Yogg'saron without driving the undead inside insane. This does not mean undead cannot use the Void, but they cannot be corrupted by it or at least not completely.
Hearthstone btw, is not a good reference, they play very fast and loose with lore for comedic effect over there. I just point to the expansion where a group of villains stole Dalaran by mounting rockets onto it.

And life, like death, is treacherous; it melds, with the void, with the nightmare, with the fel. Keep in mind that the emerald dream is a titan-curated subrealm, apparantly quite distinct from the shadowlands in that sense; they're not true servants of life, but rather of life subjugated by order. For life unbound the sporemounds of Draenor are a better example.

Yes, like the other Forces, Life is beyond definitions of good and evil, it follows it's agenda and does not care what us little people from our little planet think of it.

And you are correct that the Emerald Dream is a Titan product which creates quite some confusion, since they are not from the Life domain, but one of them, Eonar, is literally called "Lifebinder" (a title she passed on to Alex when empowering her) so there must be some connection.

Of course much of this is a result of the lore not being fully fleshed out at the time some of these stories were written and most likely that is what we will have to content with.