Is Sylvanas the most evil character ever in WoW or just misunderstood?

[LaserChild9]

She is obviously using him, besides it wasn't Jailor who ordered Arthas to invade Quel'Thalas. Also in lore Sylvanas is considered to be very smart. Much smarter than her dumb sisters anyway.

How do we know that? We didn't know Arthas had a Boss until Shadowlands, I mean, do we even know why the Jailer created Shadowmourne and the Helm of domination and then gave them to the Legion. It could well have been the Jailers orders that sent him there, the Sunwell was created using water from the well of eternity which we know is Azeroths blood, and the first thing the Jailer himself says to us in the Maw is "Death comes for the soul of your world", so he is obviously aware of Azeroth and her power.

[VladlTutushkin]

The venn diagram of people who are most vociferous about how Sylvanas is the most evil character ever and the ones who will tell you with a straight face about how Arthas was a good boy who dindu nuffin and got tricked by Ner'zhul/Mal'ganis/The Blue Man is essentially a circle.

You mean like people who say that what Arthas did was the worst crime in whole WoW history, that his necromancy was "rape" and that he was a monster unrivaled even by Kil'Jaeden but then with straight face defend same actions of Sylvanas?

[Gaidax]

Sylvanas is not "misunderstood", what she does is plain shit and evil as far as Azeroth denizens are concerned.

She has this grandiose plan in her head that supposedly should fix the (as per her belief) wrongs in some fashion, but if those small breadcrumbs are right - it seems like she has just stepped on the path to realizing this all was a bunch of baloney with her trading one piece of shit for another.

So in the end - she went on this false crusade nobody asked her for, betrayed, killed off and damned countless souls and she isn't even that sure anymore it was actually worth it.

She will have her redemption this expansion and big part will be trying to right the wrong she unleashed, then we see her atoning further down the road - Blizz won't kill her off, but she won't be celebrated as a savior for shit she did now.

[VladlTutushkin]

Sylvanas is not "misunderstood", what she does is plain shit and evil as far as Azeroth denizens are concerned.

She has this grandiose plan in her head that supposedly should fix the (as per her belief) wrongs in some fashion, but if those small breadcrumbs are right - it seems like she has just stepped on the path to realizing this all was a bunch of baloney with her trading one piece of shit for another.

So in the end - she went on this false crusade nobody asked her for, betrayed, killed off and damned countless souls and she isn't even that sure anymore it was actually worth it.

She will have her redemption this expansion and big part will be trying to right the wrong she unleashed, then we see her atoning further down the road - Blizz won't kill her off, but she won't be celebrated as a savior for shit she did now.

Just summed all my thoughts about her in the first part.

Nobody asked her for that stupid “plan to fix everything”, god knows we had one too many of those IRL and in WoW.

She also seemingly fucked up and trusted most untrustworthy dude in Shadowlands... purely because of her own retarded view of the world.

But i can agree on her “redemption”. Yeah sure they can shove it into the plot but realistically no redemption for her is possible. Aside from somehow magicking back all those souls she damned (and i mean also those souls that are gone now, “sucked” dry of anima and obliterated) and then willingly staying in Revendreth to atone for millennia until she is released to a better afterlife.

[Super Dickmann]

You mean like people who say that what Arthas did was the worst crime in whole WoW history, that his necromancy was "rape" and that he was a monster unrivaled even by Kil'Jaeden but then with straight face defend same actions of Sylvanas?

Si. Anyone with some perspective can tell that Sylvanas' story is written to ape their most successful one ever, that of Arthas, it's just that one is much better executed and carried by a coherent character rather than one that swerves in another direction every five minutes. Past that, on a macro level of destroyed territories to the micro one of torturing single individuals to yes, an extremely transparent rape analogy, Arthas' track record is worse and done with less moral prompting. Arguably Illidan's and Vashj's are as well come to think of it.

It's just that Illidan and Vashj are arguably better characters and Arthas is a blindingly better character to the point where the game is still clinging to his teat on everything from visual design to storytelling to this day and spewing out his pale imitations be it brainwashed Andy or Sylvanas herself. It also helps that he did it to non-playable groups and we were the ones in his shoes doing it while Sylvanas' actions are associated with playable factions, so one is more galling than the other to those affected.

[VladlTutushkin]

Si. Anyone with some perspective can tell that Sylvanas' story is written to ape their most successful one ever, that of Arthas, it's just that one is much better executed and carried by a coherent character rather than one that swerves in another direction every five minutes. Past that, on a macro level of destroyed territories to the micro one of torturing single individuals to yes, an extremely transparent rape analogy, Arthas' track record is worse and done with less moral prompting. Arguably Illidan's and Vashj's are as well come to think of it.

It's just that Illidan and Vashj are arguably better characters and Arthas is a blindingly better character to the point where the game is still clinging to his teat on everything from visual design to storytelling to this day and spewing out his pale imitations be it brainwashed Andy or Sylvanas herself. It also helps that he did it to non-playable groups and we were the ones in his shoes doing it while Sylvanas' actions are associated with playable factions, so one is more galling than the other to those affected.

One of the biggest problems with Sylvanas is that there is/was no character on Alliance to “mirror” or “screen” her. Her role on the horde was a “token evil teammate” but on Alliance side she appears as unstoppable, unbeatable, unrepentant, unmatched villain who exists solely to inflict grievances and humiliate the faction.

And, you know, that wouldnt be much of a problem if for example Tyrande or Genn were equally “nasty” towards the horde and equally frequent in their stories... or being “architects” of some grief for them.

Genn kiiiinda comes close during Legion but its like the same way soy milk is close to cow milk, or maybe even further from that.

Jaina came close too but all she did was to arrest some elves and whine a lot while soon being shoved to the broom closet and locked there until BfA. And then she became peacemaker again in the end of BfA. Plus her “outburst” was a singular act, not a persistent string of attacks.


Alliance lacked the character that would be equally... annoying or irritating to the horde. Yeah yeah they can whine whole day about “annoying Alliance characters” but those were annoying TEAMUPS. And main source of annoyance was the fact you had to work with them, not them actively thrashing you and your race while seemingly having no setbacks or defeats.

In two-faction setting having such disbalance is bad, really bad.

You either have to make sure you dont go too far with “token evil teammate” and keep their nastiness in controllable levels OR add an equally combative, active and obnoxious character on the other side. Be that a maverick hothead who constantly rushes out to break the legs of enemy team (and actually succeeds) or some “lawful evil” lawbringer who judges the enemy too harshly and responds with impunity.

Without that balance is gone, and without balance story goes to shit.

[Super Dickmann]

One of the biggest problems with Sylvanas is that there is/was no character on Alliance to “mirror” or “screen” her. Her role on the horde was a “token evil teammate” but on Alliance side she appears as unstoppable, unbeatable, unrepentant, unmatched villain who exists solely to inflict grievances and humiliate the faction.

And, you know, that wouldnt be much of a problem if for example Tyrande or Genn were equally “nasty” towards the horde and equally frequent in their stories... or being “architects” of some grief for them.

Genn kiiiinda comes close during Legion but its like the same way soy milk is close to cow milk, or maybe even further from that.

Alliance lacked the character that would be equally... annoying or irritating to the horde. Yeah yeah they can whine whole day about “annoying Alliance characters” but those were alloying TEAMUPS. And main source of annoyance was the fact you had to work with them, not them actively thrashing you and your race while seemingly having no setbacks or defeats.

In two-faction setting having such disbalance is bad, really bad.

You either have to make sure you dont go too far with “token evil teammate” and keep their nastiness in controllable levels OR add an equally combative, active and obnoxious character on the other side. Be that a maverick hothead who constantly rushes out to break the legs of enemy team (and actually succeeds) or some “lawful evil” lawbringer who judges the enemy too harshly and responds with impunity.

Without that balance is gone, and without balance story goes to shit.

I mean, we have that character, it's Jaina. I've killed more of my own faction on behalf of Jaina and her relatives than I have for Sylvanas and Sylvanas is meant to have wanted to kill my faction off, that's the whole reason I'm going to go a patch from now to break her kneecaps and steal Saurfang's soul for my BIS. But I don't get to break Jaina's kneecaps. Jaina is the only undefeated raidboss in the entire game who we help one patch after her victory. Jaina is the one who orchestrated pretty much all aggressive action in Kalimdor on the orcs and was a big part of pushing that against the tauren as well except the game treats her as the victim throughout. Jaina kicks our ass at the Undercity, tries to drown Orgrimmar and only fails because Thrall stopped her, kicks our ass at Dazar'alor and we are then treated as her handimen alter on. Even now she clings to this plot like a barnacle, though she has nothing to do in it. Like Poochie from the Simpsons every character who rolls on over talks about how powerful and great she is and while Tyrande gets, at best, a cool moment in a cutscene, Jaina gets to help stop Sylvanas in the raid.

Ahem, anyway, Jaina aside I agree with the general gist of what you're saying - the Alliance and Horde story have both suffered immensely ever since Blizzard decided the Alliance should not take any proactive action. Genn's neutering in BTS after a strong performance in Legion is one of the worst such examples, closely followed by the entire dwarven race post-Cata and Jaina and her nation pulling a 180 on their opinion of the Horde in the same expansion her dad is proven right. And like you add to and I mentioned earlier, Sylvanas's actions are levied directly against playable factions and thus the interests of real life people. No one in WC3 plays a civilian of Lordaeron and thus they're able to appreciate his sacking thereof as a moment of characterization and a great cinematic. People do play night elves and worgen though so actions, be they equivalent or lesser need to be answered. Genn got a clear win. The Night Elves can't get an asterisk-less win. Given that he isn't in this patch I can't for the life of me understand why they didn't have Tyrande go "No, you won't" to Nathanos' comment about being sent straight to Sylvanas if she kills him and obliterate his soul. That'd have at least given some catharsis and reinforced the primacy of the setting's only real goddess.

tl;dr Crowley or Bloodfang capping Sylvanas in an Alliance playable quest would have brought harmony to the forums.

[Ryzek]

I love Sylvanas but she is definitely evil. Not good and not misunderstood.

[VladlTutushkin]

I mean, we have that character, it's Jaina. I've killed more of my own faction on behalf of Jaina and her relatives than I have for Sylvanas and Sylvanas is meant to have wanted to kill my faction off, that's the whole reason I'm going to go a patch from now to break her kneecaps and steal Saurfang's soul for my BIS. But I don't get to break Jaina's kneecaps. Jaina is the only undefeated raidboss in the entire game who we help one patch after her victory. Jaina is the one who orchestrated pretty much all aggressive action in Kalimdor on the orcs and was a big part of pushing that against the tauren as well except the game treats her as the victim throughout. Jaina kicks our ass at the Undercity, tries to drown Orgrimmar and only fails because Thrall stopped her, kicks our ass at Dazar'alor and we are then treated as her handimen alter on. Even now she clings to this plot like a barnacle, though she has nothing to do in it. Like Poochie from the Simpsons every character who rolls on over talks about how powerful and great she is and while Tyrande gets, at best, a cool moment in a cutscene, Jaina gets to help stop Sylvanas in the raid.

Ahem, anyway, Jaina aside I agree with the general gist of what you're saying - the Alliance and Horde story have both suffered immensely ever since Blizzard decided the Alliance should not take any proactive action. Genn's neutering in BTS after a strong performance in Legion is one of the worst such examples, closely followed by the entire dwarven race post-Cata and Jaina and her nation pulling a 180 on their opinion of the Horde in the same expansion her dad is proven right. And like you add to and I mentioned earlier, Sylvanas's actions are levied directly against playable factions and thus the interests of real life people. No one in WC3 plays a civilian of Lordaeron and thus they're able to appreciate his sacking thereof as a moment of characterization and a great cinematic. People do play night elves and worgen though so actions, be they equivalent or lesser need to be answered. Genn got a clear win. The Night Elves can't get an asterisk-less win. Given that he isn't in this patch I can't for the life of me understand why they didn't have Tyrande go "No, you won't" to Nathanos' comment about being sent straight to Sylvanas if she kills him and obliterate his soul. That'd have at least given some catharsis and reinforced the primacy of the setting's only real goddess.

tl;dr Crowley or Bloodfang capping Sylvanas in an Alliance playable quest would have brought harmony to the forums.

Jaina was always a weird one. Even whole Barrens debackle was part response for much worse shit in Ashenvale and it felt... idk, half assed. More like some weak skirmishing with the orcs while they literally steamrolled through northern Kalimdor.

But aside from that.

Worgen and night elfs being “victim races” was the biggest fuck up Blizz made. Not only because it makes people hate other faction but being unable to do anything (horde exploiting that with trolling and general lack of good sportsmanship only adds fuel to the fire) but also undermined only two races in Alliance that were more “proactive” then limp boiled sausages.

Now though worgen are either humanized to hell and back or reduced to obscurity. Night elfs... well, they are literally broken people now, in game and in lore. Their only hope, Tyrande - basically got pummeled to near death when she met sylvanas. No victories (aside from killing a suicidal simp... JUST AS HE WANTED) , no future and very real danger of Shandris becoming a faction leader while gulping down human cocks rapidly. Its literally high elves but worse. And even their goddess seems so weak and pathetic that i start to suspect that IRL christianity gives stronger “buffs” and with less downsides too.

[Darth-Piekus]

Dickman I disagree. Grom was the one that started the skirmitches in Kalimdor as he started killing humans the moment he saw them. Jaina was a character traumatized by the Horde after trying so many years to bring the two factions in peace.

As for Sylvannas they could have made her lose the battle with Tyrande being a decoy and getting saved at the last second just like Kel'Thuzad as they only needed the sigil. She can still be a raid boss but that doesn't mean she has to be unbeatable in the story. Look at Arthas. How many times he came close to death during the Northrend Campaign but that doesn't mean he wasn't a worthy raid boss? It is ridiculous at this point.

[Super Dickmann]

Jaina was always a weird one. Even whole Barrens debackle was part response for much worse shit in Ashenvale and it felt... idk, half assed. More like some weak skirmishing with the orcs while they literally steamrolled through northern Kalimdor.

I'll cover this more in my response to @Darth-Piekus below but disregarding the particulars of the causal link this is actually one of the first examples of the night elves being hit to give an excuse for the EK part of the Alliance to act even when they themselves aren't geographically threatened in any way. It's just Cataclysm handled this better.

Worgen and night elfs being “victim races” was the biggest fuck up Blizz made. Not only because it makes people hate other faction but being unable to do anything (horde exploiting that with trolling and general lack of good sportsmanship only adds fuel to the fire) but also undermined only two races in Alliance that were more “proactive” then limp boiled sausages.

Worgen should've had a shot at the Silverpine experience. Their showing there is arguably the best the race has in any content, yet it's only viewable by Horde players with them as the antagonist who give us serious trouble who we're only able to push back at the last juncture. It's the only time the worgen curse is cast a curse and we're shown their struggle for their home vs the Forsaken. But most worgen players nevers see it, even if it is some of the best Forsaken and worgen content out there.

The worgen are the singularly most neutered race in the game. Forsaken fine, night elves, natch, but while the Forsaken have lost basically every character and been replaced and we've both ranted on the night elf issue for a million years, consider this: We've at least not reached the point yet where their own heritage scenario is about how they should cease to be, where their tabards are swapped out for Stormwind tabard recolours and the lesson is that the worgen will vanish and that's a good thing. To not be a worgen is to be the best worgen, per their most recent content. All in the same expansion that made Genn a kindly granddad. Night Elves get screentime and Blizzard trying and failing repeatedly to give them a moment, worgen get an Anduin flavored fat one for their trouble. Now that Danuser's at the helm Forsaken mains have at least the hope of Calia getting squirreled away in the Horde and Sylvanas getting some dimension. Worgen get nothing.

As I've told you before there's zero chance of Tyrande dying as I see it. She'll find out about love and peace which is the death of the soul, but she won't really die. I also think that they're likely to go in the direction of her beating Sylvanas only for her powers to overcharge. The main issue is that the night elves need a no strings attached win. I maintain that Nathanos should've been that moment if they had no intention of bringing him back.

Dickman I disagree. Grom was the one that started the skirmitches in Kalimdor as he started killing humans the moment he saw them. Jaina was a character traumatized by the Horde after trying so many years to bring the two factions in peace.

As for Sylvannas they could have made her lose the battle with Tyrande being a decoy and getting saved at the last second just like Kel'Thuzad as they only needed the sigil. She can still be a raid boss but that doesn't mean she has to be unbeatable in the story. Look at Arthas. How many times he came close to death during the Northrend Campaign but that doesn't mean he wasn't a worthy raid boss? It is ridiculous at this point.

I'm referring specifically to the slightly pre-Cata and on portrayal when Theramore forces hit Honor's Stand before the Shattering and before Garrosh does anything, are the bulk of all forces involved in the S. Barrens and yet when we pivot to this narrative again in the Mists book Jaina is cast as a victim who didn't do any of this. Not as a retcon - these things are still referenced, it's just that nobody cares. This is the ongoing thing with Jaina's portrayal.

Now you could argue that it was out of character for Jaina to do so or that Jaina was rational to do so as a choice of self-preservation since Garrosh would attack her anyway and she had to accept doing aggression for the Alliance to save Theramore. Both true, but neither is actually the narrative being told. The narrative casts Jaina solely as a victim and this extends from the tauren and orcs in Tides of War to ditch Jaina to the business with Derek which receives more weight in the story than Teldrassil on the back of Jaina's outsized role.

I maintain that the best way to do it is to have Tyrande use the Night Warrior power to beat Sylvanas back and fry the Mawsworn forces, but either have them overcharge to take her out of the running or have someone (Anduin, Kel'thuzad?) intervene to let Sylvanas escape. More importan than the exact mechanics of it is the framing. We need to see that Tyrande is actually having an effect and that her opponents are worried about her. It's why the Nathanos cutscene doesn't work in its intended purpose - he snarks until the end and is the winner of the conversation even though she steamrolls him. There is no reason why, if they had no intention to use the character later they didn't have Elune fry his soul and keep him from going to the Maw. I'm one of the few people who actually are fine with Nathanos and think him staying such a simp is a waste too, but if it was going to go down this way anyway they should've thrown the night elves a bone. Eliminating his soul would also both make it more personal between her and Sylvanas and actually show us a way in which the Night Warrior power is noteworthy, by showing that it's volatile and influential enough to cancel out the premise of the expansion, that being that all souls go to the Maw.

[Soon-TM]

@Super Dickmann Re: Jaina, don't forget that she also featured heavily in Nazjatar, even if she was supposed to be badly wounded. In the meantime, Shandris, Maiev or Tyrande, who could presumably have more knowledge about Aszhara (and reasons to hate her) played no significant role whatsoever in Nazjatar.

[TheFirstOnes]

She's such a poorly writen character atm like so many other things in wow right now so dont really care just want her to be gone for good. They desperatly need some new interesting characters going.

And dont get me started on the jailer the lamest of all villians.

Give Mr Clean his chance to shine. I’m sure they’ll pull something out of their asses for him.

Also, 90% certain they’ll milk the Demons more and give us a “Fel Pantheon” AKA the Chaos Gods, but I doubt it.

[Super Dickmann]

@Super Dickmann Re: Jaina, don't forget that she also featured heavily in Nazjatar, even if she was supposed to be badly wounded. In the meantime, Shandris, Maiev or Tyrande, who could presumably have more knowledge about Aszhara (and reasons to hate her) played no significant role whatsoever in Nazjatar.

Yeah I beat that drum in another thread as well. For the blood elves the part where you help Jaina kill the guys she purged in the first place is also an incredible highlight, especially since Bob is the one to give you the quest to do it.

[Alexeht]

Evil:
Created a plague to wipe out not only the Scourge but all of the living as well.

that wasn't her

[VladlTutushkin]

that wasn't her

It was on her orders though.

[Alexeht]

It was on her orders though.

It was created to wipe Scourge, Scarlets, and then Alliance. Grand Apothecary Putress was behind using it on all living, not Sylvanas.

[Broken Fox]

The venn diagram of people who are most vociferous about how Sylvanas is the most evil character ever and the ones who will tell you with a straight face about how Arthas was a good boy who dindu nuffin and got tricked by Ner'zhul/Mal'ganis/The Blue Man is essentially a circle.

The weirdest ones are the people who suggested Sylvanas be tortured for eternity by Arthas in the Shadowlands as her punishment... lol

[Eggroll]

Would you want to spend eternity in the Maw? Most people don't even want to spend enough time there to do daily quests.

ORLY, that's why she's sending all those poor night elf souls into the maw, because she doesn't want to end up there..., well, with the Burning of Teldrassil she earned this fate...

[Soon-TM]

Don't worry bois/gurls, with Golden's brand new book we'll REALLY learn about Sylv's intended purpose(s), for real this time! /pinkyswear

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