{TV} The Falcon and the Winter Soldier

[tyrlaan]

Clearly, these four won't stop bombarding me with further lecturing and ping ponging off of their circlejerk.

Sorry for disrupting your lectures. I believe you guys have Colbert to watch in a couple hours so I'll let you to it.

So no examples, like I requested, of me attacking, gaslighting, and/or strawmanning you?

Weird.

[eschatological]

I do seek out non political stuff. Over time, it immediately turns political because people pressure companies, studios, directors, writers, etc to make statements.

D&D for fuck's sake, released a new handbook getting rid of racial restrictions because people can't stop comparing POC to barbaric orcs, evil elves, etc.

It's another "coolest monkey in the jungle" situation.

This is nonsense. As a D&D DM, they're removing racial restrictions because people didn't like that to play a good charisma-based caster (like a warlock or a sorc), you had to be a tiefling because they had the +2 racial bonus to charisma. That's all they're doing - unlocking the racial ability scores bonuses from the races. So if you really want to be a tiefling barbarian, you don't have to feel gimped because you're getting +2 in a stat you don't give a shit about.

Which just kinda confirms you're seeing whatever the hell you want to see out there in the world.

[Sorrowseer]

Strange... The show is about the legacy of a character called Captain America. Two guesses about why there's talk of American politics in it.

Indeed, but its not Captain 'lets sit down and talk about politics kids' America, is it, there is more to it than that, I gave the show a shot, I saw the same episodes you did, I didn't like it, no hard feelings involved for anyone.

I'd advise you to find a different program then.

Noted.

Okay, that means you are just bored by the show. It doesn't actually support anything in the post you agreed with earlier.

And you are literally watching a show involves the mantle of Captain America ... who was a political characters since his creation dealing with "fake america's politics." You knew what the show as going to be about in the first episode.

Your point? You cannot gatekeep what I dislike and why I dislike it, just as I cannot do the same for you.

[Zaktar]

This is nonsense. As a D&D DM, they're removing racial restrictions because people didn't like that to play a good charisma-based caster (like a warlock or a sorc), you had to be a tiefling because they had the +2 racial bonus to charisma. That's all they're doing - unlocking the racial ability scores bonuses from the races. So if you really want to be a tiefling barbarian, you don't have to feel gimped because you're getting +2 in a stat you don't give a shit about.

Which just kinda confirms you're seeing whatever the hell you want to see out there in the world.

I was curious because I used to play D&D and haven't in a while, so I looked up the announcement. WotC explicitly drew connections to the real world when they made the announcement:

https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/fea...ersity-and-dnd

Throughout the 50-year history of D&D, some of the peoples in the game—orcs and drow being two of the prime examples—have been characterized as monstrous and evil, using descriptions that are painfully reminiscent of how real-world ethnic groups have been and continue to be denigrated. That’s just not right, and it’s not something we believe in.

...

Later this year, we will release a product (not yet announced) that offers a way for a player to customize their character’s origin, including the option to change the ability score increases that come from being an elf, a dwarf, or one of D&D's many other playable folk. This option emphasizes that each person in the game is an individual with capabilities all their own.

Wizards is recognizing the role that prejudice played in the initial design of D&D and is taking steps to address it. It's not "ugh more wokeism," it's letting go of outdated racist ideals and moving to treat people in their world as individuals, which is how reality works. Humans of different "races" don't have some sort of inherent racial bonuses, though I've met people who believe in that sort of nonsense. I think players were ahead on this for many years, and frankly it's just D&D catching up with their fans. It's hard to grasp why anyone would have a legitimate issue with it when players can do everything they used to be able to do and more.

It's not that dissimilar to what we're seeing in Falcon and Winter Soldier, but I wouldn't call either of those things woke. To me woke is about token gestures, stuff like gay characters kissing in the background so the major corporation can try to score points with progressive fans. The changes to D&D and the elements of race in the storyline of this show are substantive, they feel more like honest attempts to improve and to open difficult discussions. And the thing is that Falcon and Winter soldier does that on more than just race, it's also examining classist divisions, the consequences of the US's long and brutal wars, the effects of trauma and reconciliation, and other things I'm not thinking about because it's sunday and I'm tired.

The show is trying to be honest with the consequences of the world the MCU has set up, but somehow a certain subset of viewers are just upset about the conversation around race.

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Indeed, but its not Captain 'lets sit down and talk about politics kids' America, is it, there is more to it than that, I gave the show a shot, I saw the same episodes you did, I didn't like it, no hard feelings involved for anyone.



Noted.



Your point? You cannot gatekeep what I dislike and why I dislike it, just as I cannot do the same for you.

You said you agreed with every single point someone posted, which included "boring/useless characters." Which characters are boring and useless?

[Sorrowseer]

You said you agreed with every single point someone posted, which included "boring/useless characters." Which characters are boring and useless?

To me and I think I need to stress that, me, the flagsmashers are boring and useless, the dora milaji are boring... I think thats basically the only ones.

[tyrlaan]

Awesome that you're a DM, hope you don't mind a couple questions since it's been over a decade since I even held a set of dice. There are a bunch of different rulesets you can use while playing D&D right? Including using homebrew rules? How does providing one without racial restrictions impact the ability to play by the original 5e(or w/e) rules? Doesn't the DM usually set the rules with input from their players before a campaign begins?

I'll jump in since I also DM and ALWAYS am down for some D&D conversation (please feel free to amend any of this @eschatological):

So the official amendment to the rules is that you still get ability score improvements but you just pick what ability scores you want to apply them to rather than to be restricted by whatever has previously been associated with a given race. Absolutely you could always homebrew/houserule this, but it's nice for it to be official especially considering organized play (which I believe is called Adventurer's League) which can produce gaming groups where people haven't necessarily laid out ground rules ahead of time.

The original 5e rules don't restrict races to specific classes other than through implicit limitations by not being able to min/max your character in a way that's optimized for a given class. Like @eschatological 's example, anyone playing with at least moderate optimization in mind would end up going warlock, sorcerer, or bard (maybe paladin) with a tiefling but stay far away from barbarian, druid, etc., etc. Nothing in the rules stops you from playing a tiefling barbarian other than the fact that you would be 2 points behind in Strength compared to a race that gets a strength bonus (like, say, a half-orc iirc) until you eventually reach the cap of 20. And to explain reaching the cap of 20...

So if you build characters with point buy instead of rolling dice, the highest ability score you can start with is a 15. As you advance in level, you earn ability score boosts - once every 4 levels (assuming no multiclassing for simplicity). Each boost is 2 points - 1pt in 2 scores or 2pts in one score - and you're capped to 20. Therefore, if you start with a 15, you won't get to 20 until 12th level. If you start at 15 and are playing a race that gets +2 to that score, you get to reach 20 by 8th level, and of course you're ahead of someone without that same ability score boost all the way until they hit 12th. This is further complicated if you use feats in your game, which you can only acquire by "cashing in" one of your ability score improvements that you earn every 4 levels. So being ahead of the game in your most important ability score is handy if you have your eye on feats.

And hopefully this answered your question

[Darththeo]

Your point? You cannot gatekeep what I dislike and why I dislike it, just as I cannot do the same for you.

I don't think you understand what gatekeeping is.

I am pointing out the reason you don't like the show is solely because it bores you as you chosen not to defend the other points you agreed with. This isn't gatekeeping, this is literally the result of me asking you to show why you support those statements and your sole response was "it bores me."

There are shows that bore me. Stranger Things bores the hell out of me, I don't enjoy it for that. I don't feel the need to find other reasons to say I don't like the show. And if I have other reasons why I may not like a show, I can explain why I don't like it.

[Zaktar]

To me and I think I need to stress that, me, the flagsmashers are boring and useless, the dora milaji are boring... I think thats basically the only ones.

I assume you mean the flag smashers are boring since they are too integral to the plot to be fairly considered useless. It really isn't a good show for you then, fair enough. Personally I find their story of being displaced by the un-blip or whatever to be an interesting examination of the consequences of Infinity War/Endgame. I hadn't really thought much of that side of things before this series. (Maybe it came up in the Wanda Vision series, I skipped that one).

[Stardrift]

This is nonsense. As a D&D DM, they're removing racial restrictions because people didn't like that to play a good charisma-based caster (like a warlock or a sorc), you had to be a tiefling because they had the +2 racial bonus to charisma. That's all they're doing - unlocking the racial ability scores bonuses from the races. So if you really want to be a tiefling barbarian, you don't have to feel gimped because you're getting +2 in a stat you don't give a shit about.

Which just kinda confirms you're seeing whatever the hell you want to see out there in the world.

https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/fea...ersity-and-dnd

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Indeed, but its not Captain 'lets sit down and talk about politics kids' America, is it, there is more to it than that, I gave the show a shot, I saw the same episodes you did, I didn't like it, no hard feelings involved for anyone.



Noted.



Your point? You cannot gatekeep what I dislike and why I dislike it, just as I cannot do the same for you.

You're speaking to people who have been trained to see red at anything that isn't like minded. It's simple bigotry and fascism, the same shit they are always complaining about.

It's no use, it's like speaking to a brick wall. They don't care how you feel, they only care about how they think you should feel. "Want escapism? Kill yourself" is the message I've gotten from one of them.

[Stardrift]

Good luck finding some media that doesn't deal with social issues!

I have. I enjoy it for a little while, then the politics crowd gets to it and it gets politicized. I ditch, I move on, find something else, rinse and repeat. It's like a curse at this point.

[Egomaniac]

You're speaking to people who have been trained to see red at anything that isn't like minded. It's simple bigotry and fascism, the same shit they are always complaining about.

It's no use, it's like speaking to a brick wall. They don't care how you feel, they only care about how they think you should feel. "Want escapism? Kill yourself" is the message I've gotten from one of them.

If someone actually said you should kill yourself...that person can get fucked. There's not reason to take it to that level over anything...least of all a TV show.

Other than that, people have been disagreeing with you and you've decided to take that personally.

You've been far more abrasive to other people than they have been to you.

[Stardrift]

I'm sorry you think that when people disagree with you it must be because of a "circle jerk".

A final "lecture":

"If you run into an asshole in the morning, you've run into as asshole. If you run into assholes all day, you're the asshole"

So someone who disagrees with the lot is an asshole? So say, we put a scientist in a room full of flat earthers, and the flat earthers start acting like assholes to the scientist, the scientist is an asshole?

Guaranteed you've got a history in political rants and tirades on both Twitter and Reddit. People like you just reek of that shit. Can tell from the way that you guys speak, demand sources for the most trivial of things, etc. You're "expert" keyboard warriors, and know how to gaslight your way through a discussion and completely dump on how people feel about certain things. You're all the same.

The fact one of you got away with telling me to kill myself over this is insane. Someone dislikes a marvel show because of political drabble, and telling them to kill themselves is the appropriate answer?

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If someone actually said you should kill yourself...that person can get fucked. There's not reason to take it to that level over anything...least of all a TV show.

Other than that, people have been disagreeing with you and you've decided to take that personally.

You've been far more abrasive to other people than they have been to you.

They're free to disagree. If they enjoy it, all the more power to them. I stated I disliked it, and people have been defensive over it. Five of you bombarded me with paragraphs on why I'm bullshit, and one of you going as far as telling me to off myself. Over a fucking Marvel show.

My point is proven in the case of what these politics does to us.

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So they burned all the other rulesets? I can’t start a 4e campaign right now?

The fact is this needless politicization of stuff that does not need to be politicized is just insane and exposes who the real racists are. Who the fuck sees a half orc and thinks of POC besides racists?? Who the hell draws parallels between black people and soot-coloured evil elves?

[Egomaniac]

They're free to disagree. If they enjoy it, all the more power to them. I stated I disliked it, and people have been defensive over it. Five of you bombarded me with paragraphs on why I'm bullshit, and one of you going as far as telling me to off myself. Over a fucking Marvel show.

My point is proven in the case of what these politics does to us.

I haven't attacked you personally at all. I think you're wrong and i told you why...but that's as far as it went. As I said, you decided to take that personally. That's on you.

If a person told you to kill yourself...your beef is with them...but don't paint anyone that disagrees with you with the same brush.

So someone who disagrees with the lot is an asshole? So say, we put a scientist in a room full of flat earthers, and the flat earthers start acting like assholes to the scientist, the scientist is an asshole?

What i said was because of what you said about all of us that disagreed with you in your parting shots.

[Zaktar]

The fact is this needless politicization of stuff that does not need to be politicized is just insane and exposes who the real racists are. Who the fuck sees a half orc and thinks of POC besides racists?? Who the hell draws parallels between black people and soot-coloured evil elves?

You are the one who's doing that. WotC just recognized that D&D's views on race were outdated and in need of an update. It didn't subtract anything from the game and did not draw any explicit parallels between orcs and a specific ethnicity. It observed that suggesting a whole category of people can be evil or share very specific attributes is an incorrect view which is similar to racism.

[tyrlaan]

So they burned all the other rulesets? I can’t start a 4e campaign right now?

Right?

Or hell, just NOT use the rule they released in Tasha's Cauldron of Everything that introduces the concept of untangling ability scores from race as an optional rule.

Or houserule it.

But some people just want to be angry at the world I guess?

[Jotaux]

If people don't like it because its political, no reason to jump down their throats.

Personally, I loved the episode! I don't know if any of you read the Captain America Sam Wilson comic but those were terrible, I was really disappointed with them. This show is doing a great job establishing Sam as Captain America, and why its important for him to take the mantle.

[Stardrift]

Right?

Or hell, just NOT use the rule they released in Tasha's Cauldron of Everything that introduces the concept of untangling ability scores from race as an optional rule.

Or houserule it.

But some people just want to be angry at the world I guess?

It's the fact that it's needless politicization and being unable to seperate fiction from reality. Something you clearly struggle with.

[Stardrift]

If people don't like it because its political, no reason to jump down their throats.

Personally, I loved the episode! I don't know if any of you read the Captain America Sam Wilson comic but those were terrible, I was really disappointed with them. This show is doing a great job establishing Sam as Captain America, and why its important for him to take the mantle.

I'm glad you're getting everything you'd like through the show. I do enjoy everything seperate from the politics, and believe there is healthy discussion to be had in that department. The acting and casting is also wonderful. Never really saw those comics though. Curious, what made them not so great?

[Endus]

The fact one of you got away with telling me to kill myself over this is insane. Someone dislikes a marvel show because of political drabble, and telling them to kill themselves is the appropriate answer?

You've made that claim a few times. I went back over the last 10 pages looking for every response addressed to you, and couldn't find one telling you to "kill yourself". Got a link?

That's not acceptable and I'll report it myself if I see it. I'm just . . . not seeing it, and I really did try.

The fact is this needless politicization of stuff that does not need to be politicized is just insane and exposes who the real racists are. Who the fuck sees a half orc and thinks of POC besides racists?? Who the hell draws parallels between black people and soot-coloured evil elves?

You're the one who's politicizing D&D, here, man. Why is making the game more flexible for players and updating potentially-offensive content a bad thing? Changes a lot of the community have been asking for. You're the one who's decided to make this a political battleground, not WotC.

It's the same with the show. It's a political show, dealing with nationalism, refugees, the political power of symbols, lack of care for veterans, just to name a few central themes. But Sam dealing with issues of racial injustice because of his ethnicity is somehow a step too far?

[tyrlaan]

It's the fact that it's needless politicization and being unable to seperate fiction from reality. Something you clearly struggle with.

I mean, it's clearly designed to open up character options, and it also happens to address some awkward aspects of how races work in D&D that can make some people uncomfortable. I know you need to be mad about it though, and try super hard to project that on me, so knock yourself out.