If the night elves gave half of Ashenvale to the Horde, would there have been peace?

[VladlTutushkin]

Horde doesn't take charity. If true horde wants a forest, it's taking a god damn forest. And despite me being a Hordie, I respect Night Elves enough not to believe they would be such weaklings as to give half their sacred land to the Horde just because they were scared of conflict.

That's also the difference between Garrosh and Sylvanas. Both went into Ashenvale, but Garrosh actually wanted dem trees. Sylvanas saw the biggest freaking tree around and burned it. That's not good leadership.

Havent taken that forest yet as far as i can see.

[Hellspawn]

Horde doesn't take charity. If true horde wants a forest, it's taking a god damn forest. And despite me being a Hordie, I respect Night Elves enough not to believe they would be such weaklings as to give half their sacred land to the Horde just because they were scared of conflict.

That's also the difference between Garrosh and Sylvanas. Both went into Ashenvale, but Garrosh actually wanted dem trees. Sylvanas saw the biggest freaking tree around and burned it. That's not good leadership.

Well, initially the Horde under Sylvanas went in to take the night elfs as hostage so Alliance would never attack the Horde (because Anduin is such a warmonger and who knows, in a hundred years Alliance my attack for some reason). That's at least what Sylvanas told the old dump soldier. In the end, all of that was thrown out of the window spontaneously(which seems unlikely)!

Thrall knew what kind of guy Garrosh (he even told him I think). Still, he put him into that position! Garrosh was eager to fight and earn his honor in a new war. He is not the guy who tries to solve things with diplomacy (like Thrall). There is really no reason why they need Ashenvale, they can ship lumber and food from other parts of the world or even transport it from different parts of Kalimdor to Ogrimmar.

[Okacz]

Havent taken that forest yet as far as i can see.

Okay, with mixed success. Gotta appreciate the effort.

Well, initially the Horde under Sylvanas went in to take the night elfs as hostage so Alliance would never attack the Horde (because Anduin is such a warmonger and who knows, in a hundred years Alliance my attack for some reason). That's at least what Sylvanas told the old dump soldier. In the end, all of that was thrown out of the window spontaneously(which seems unlikely)!

Thrall knew what kind of guy Garrosh (he even told him I think). Still, he put him into that position! Garrosh was eager to fight and earn his honor in a new war. He is not the guy who tries to solve things with diplomacy (like Thrall). There is really no reason why they need Ashenvale, they can ship lumber and food from other parts of the world or even transport it from different parts of Kalimdor to Ogrimmar.

There were a few novels/short stories tackling the subject that life in Orgrimmar really sucked. No wood or lack of food were real issues Thrall was supposed to tackle after his wonderful decision of settling his main city in a defenseless position on the bottom of a canyon with no resources around. And I don't think "shipping lumber" could work - none of the Horde-controller territories had abundance of either food or wood (Mulgore and Barrens suck, Tirisfal Glades is a dead wasteland on another continent). Due to ongoing conflict with Alliance any trading routes were off limit.

My theory is Thrall decided to be the most ruthlessly pragmatic Orc ever. He knew the only option was to take what the Horde needs by force, but still needed to keep up appearances of being a wise diplomat. Solution - get a guy who would do what's necessary for you (war on resources, raiding parties etc), quietly leave the Horde under the weakest of pretenses (sure Thrall, you definitely were the only Shaman around who could do something about Cataclysm, no one else was on standby). After your pawn has gathered enough resources through war, get back, kill him, become Warchief again, and say you're sorry for the whole war thing but that wasn't your idea.

Thrall didn't take into account that Garrosh could find an Old God heart, but aside of that the plan was pretty good.

[Hellspawn]

My theory is Thrall decided to be the most ruthlessly pragmatic Orc ever

That would be maximum out of character for Thrall and I'm pretty sure if Metzen was asked he would agree with me.

[Soimu]

We night elves will never rest till we purge all Horde from our lands. Make Ashenvale great again!

[Okacz]

That would be maximum out of character for Thrall and I'm pretty sure if Metzen was asked he would agree with me.

Thrall nominated Garrosh as Warchief during a particularly tense moment between Alliance and Horde. He did it knowing pretty well that NONE of his advisors would endorse him, that Garroshes top priority even during Northrend campaign was to keep pushing the Alliance. He did all that leaving Horde in its most difficult of times (Orgrimmar was pretty much destroyed in Cata prepatch), and didn't choose to come back even after the Grimtotem situation or Garrosh vs Vol'Jin.

Thrall is smart enough to know this shit wouldn't work, must have been on purpose.

[sam86]

Garrosh would have invaded no matter what. He wanted all of Kalimdor.

Garrosh is literally result of nelf policy of nothing to horde, if u want to go that route: there would be no Garrosh in first place if nelfs gave wood to horde

but no, there won't be peace because Ashenvale isn't only source of problem, and just make it ashenvale only is way too simplified (and even ashenvale problem isn't just wood since wc3 days, blood was spilled and orcs damned themselves and Mannaroth and all that sh8t)

Still, he did allow the Warsong to raid Ashenvale for resources and the Horde was in Ashenvale even in Vanilla

no he didn't, he kept trying to control and punish however breaks it, in fact during Thrall regime humans were under Thrall direct protection if they visit Orgrimmar (something alliance never did in SW, but they did in Theramore), Thrall was pro-peace strongly and pushing it
When ur entire squad is disobeying u, either u risk losing ur grip on all ur military, or just ignore some idiotic small skirmishes (which what wsg is officially lore-wise, small-scale skirmished not approved by either alliance or horde)

[geco]

Not.
BFA shows us why No.
Let us remember that "The most honorable Horco" does not care about a very similar treatment and still plans how to take all the Kaldorei as hostages.

And above all what they say that the Kaldorei should give resources to the Horde in their time of need. Now the ones in the time of need are the Kaldorei. The Horde did not consider regulating him or resources or anything.
Even that Trall is hunting Sylvanas for Tyrande comes out of Tyrande not making a simple "apology" from Trall. Because that's all the Horde was going to give them. Therefore the Horde must have been happy that the Kaldoreio told them "how sad you are starving" or something like that.

Second Garrosh is also not in the place to blame the Kaldorei. I understand why He started the war and he did not classify it as "bad" for that. But if he really needed Kaldorei mercy so much he would have thoroughly investigated why the treaties were broken and handed those who did it to justice. Because they weren't broken up by Varian from what I know. But for the ancient gods.

Garrosh was a good Pj. But he was incapable of handling a peace. He was just layers of war and he knew it. BFA teaches us that the entire Horde itself is just layers of war. (Which doesn't make sense, but that's the way writers are.)

[Zuben]

Maybe. Garrosh ended up being a hard-liner for orc supremacy, but thanks to the alternate timeline shenanigans we know there existed far better versions of him, ours being labeled the worst he could be. Had the initial tensions not escalated it's possible co-existence had been possible. Orgrimmar is really hurting for resources, an issue I don't recall to have been solved yet, so there were legitimate reasons to take action. If I know my history correct imperial Japan entered WW2 for similar reasons (among others).

There are some things to note, though. 1) Ashenvale isn't solely the night elves' to give, other sentient creatures dwell there too, not to mention the forest itself is somewhat that. 2) Before the war in Cataclysm there were efforts to avoid it by having a summit in Theramore (shown in the comic). After some initial bickering they managed to calm down and actually discuss Stormwind-Orgrimmar lumber trade. (At this point Thrall was still the Warchief.) 3) Twilight's Hammer screwed that up like it did everything else back in those days.

[Hellspawn]

There are some things to note, though. 1) Ashenvale isn't solely the night elves' to give, other sentient creatures dwell there too, not to mention the forest itself is somewhat that. 2) Before the war in Cataclysm there were efforts to avoid it by having a summit in Theramore (shown in the comic). After some initial bickering they managed to calm down and actually discuss Stormwind-Orgrimmar lumber trade. (At this point Thrall was still the Warchief.) 3) Twilight's Hammer screwed that up like it did everything else back in those days.

So if Stormwind can ship wood to Ogrimmar, why can't the Forsaken, or the Blood Elfs? Or maybe they just get the lumber from Strangle Thorn, Goblins already got a lot of lumber operations there and would be surely happy to deliver.

[Zuben]

So if Stormwind can ship wood to Ogrimmar, why can't the Forsaken, or the Blood Elfs? Or maybe they just get the lumber from Strangle Thorn, Goblins already got a lot of lumber operations there and would be surely happy to deliver.

Maybe that's what's going on nowadays? I only know it was a problem for Orgrimmar back in Cataclysm and they saw it as something the Alliance could provide. A Good War gave a number of reasons to attack Teldrassil, but I don't recall any of them was about resource scarcity. I don't know, maybe Azshara, light as it seems, has enough lumber for their needs; the zone became officially Horde's after the war in Cataclysm and MoP.

[Aucald]

We don't need to assume. We know that Varian was already taking military action against the Forsaken before that in Howling Fjord and Stormwind's policy was to burn their hearts in braziers to purify their souls. We also know that when Varian hears that Thrall is in the city he immediately runs out of the Apothecarium to go after him. Hell, even when he sees the Apothecarium he makes it about orcs.

It probably shouldn't go without mention that Varian's actions and reactions were also a product of his time spent as a gladiator-slave in the Horde, fighting for his life in the gladiator circuit among other slaves. That is no doubt what is meant when he says "I have seen the Horde's world. I have been inside their cities." He's thinking of his time as a slave, of the many travails that preceded and followed his eventual escape back to Stormwind. It's pretty easy to see why he'd make it personal, even if his reaction is an emotionally driven one.

[Hellspawn]

Maybe that's what's going on nowadays? I only know it was a problem for Orgrimmar back in Cataclysm and they saw it as something the Alliance could provide. A Good War gave a number of reasons to attack Teldrassil, but I don't recall any of them was about resource scarcity. I don't know, maybe Azshara, light as it seems, has enough lumber for their needs; the zone became officially Horde's after the war in Cataclysm and MoP.

But why couldn't it happen back then? The Horde had ships themselves, and the Goblins had them as well, why wouldn't they try to make money? So for some reason, the Orcs limited themselves to the wood they can get by trading with the Alliance.

[Kilpi]

Ashenvale was the primary cause of Alliance and Horde's tensions in Kalimdor -- Durotar and Orgrimmar lacked the essential resources to sustain their population properly after the Third War, and the night elves seemed less than willing to provide them. It has been a major point of conflict -- in the original game, Cataclysm, in the Fourth War, etc.

Ah yes, the orcs just mistaked Cenarius for a tree. Also what we see in Ashenvale doesn't look like "we just wanted to harvest a few trees because we were cold (".

[geco]

Maybe that's what's going on nowadays? I only know it was a problem for Orgrimmar back in Cataclysm and they saw it as something the Alliance could provide. A Good War gave a number of reasons to attack Teldrassil, but I don't recall any of them was about resource scarcity. I don't know, maybe Azshara, light as it seems, has enough lumber for their needs; the zone became officially Horde's after the war in Cataclysm and MoP.

Nope. A good war does not give any good reason to attack Teldrazzil. Beyond "Maybe in 100 years we will be attacked." The Horde is seen complaining about that from BFA. I think it was even a question at the Blisccon.

[Tarba]

Vanilla writers were retards. So Thrall would have started an other war.

[Zuben]

But why couldn't it happen back then? The Horde had ships themselves, and the Goblins had them as well, why wouldn't they try to make money? So for some reason, the Orcs limited themselves to the wood they can get by trading with the Alliance.

*shrug* The writing team at the time didn't address alternatives. I imagine if the current writing team were confronted about it they'd claim the cartels asked more than the Horde could afford (goblin's probably want gold, while the Horde offered pelts from Durotar's plentiful wildlife in exchange for Stormwind's lumber) and that the trees in Lordaeron are too rotten. Conjure a similar "umm uhhh..."-explanation for Eversong trees. You know, whatever legitimizes the fact they absolutely needed Alliance resources.

[Hellspawn]

*shrug* The writing team at the time didn't address alternatives. I imagine if the current writing team were confronted about it they'd claim the cartels asked more than the Horde could afford (goblin's probably want gold, while the Horde offered pelts from Durotar's plentiful wildlife in exchange for Stormwind's lumber) and that the trees in Lordaeron are too rotten. Conjure a similar "umm uhhh..."-explanation for Eversong trees. You know, whatever legitimizes the fact they absolutely needed Alliance resources.

It's just really stupid. All of this is just to make this faction conflict plot happen in cata. On a side note, personally, I don't get why people think the original writers of wow are any better than the current ones.

[Shrouded]

I think a lot of people forget that to night elves, Ashenvale isn't about territory or resources, it's about religion and night elf society. An Ashenvale tree is every bit as much a part of the night elf population as, well, a night elf - kaldorei don't harvest wood by cutting trees down, instead wisps tend to the trees and allows wood to be shed from them without harming them. Night elven spirits suffuse the woods. Treant ancients, who have knowledge of many, many millennia are part of these woods and serve to guide and protect night elven culture.

"Giving up half of Ashenvale" for the Horde to exploit for resources would be like giving up half your neighbors & friends and betraying your religion all at once; it's just not a reasonable thing to consider, even if to a pragmatist it might make a lot of sense. This is also why first contact with the night elves was so volatile for the orcs - to the orcs it was about lumber, but to the elves the orcs had already begun killing their family and friends.

[Raisei]

Ashenvale was the primary cause of Alliance and Horde's tensions in Kalimdor -- Durotar and Orgrimmar lacked the essential resources to sustain their population properly after the Third War, and the night elves seemed less than willing to provide them. It has been a major point of conflict -- in the original game, Cataclysm, in the Fourth War, etc.

As far as we know, Tyrande giving Azshara to the Horde was able to guarantee at least several years of peace, as the Horde abandoned most of their outposts in Ashenvale.

What if Tyrande and her night elves just gave the orcs half their territory? Would that have settled tensions between them permanently, and perhaps even averted or settled the Alliance-Horde faction conflict once and for all?

Oh sure, maybe we give them halve of the Eastern Kingdoms too with a summer home in Elwyn Forest. Then they can have a shorter way invading Stormwind when they decide to turn on us again for our friendlyness.

The history of the Horde proves clearly that everyone that was kind to them ended up paying for it. The kindness of the Draenei was repayed by genocide, the kindness of the Alliance and specifically Jaina after the Second War allowed the formation of the "new" Horde and was repayed with not one but two attempts to wipe the Alliance out, each time ending with thousands of dead on the side of the Alliance, a city reduced to smoldering ruins and the Horde extending it's reach more over Kalimdor, with now just the Draenei island remaining safe.

Garrosh was a glory-hungry fool with severe daddy issues that was just looking for any cause to start a war and play the big man while Sylvanas still is a psychopathic zombie that murders people out of sheer jealousy and maliciousness. Neither of them would give a flying frag about anything the Nightelves give them, they started wars because they wanted to. It becomes especially clear when you look at Darkshore after it was temporarily conquered by the Horde. Did they settle there? Start agriculture to feed the oh so starving Ogrimmar? No.
She had her Forsaken blight it. Because the Horde does not need any land, it just wants it. All of it. Giving them land will only result in them wanting more and when you resist they will kill you for it, while feeling totally justified about that.