If the night elves gave half of Ashenvale to the Horde, would there have been peace?

[geco]

Only reason Alliance was not as “exciting” as horde was because writers were too busy jerking off to muscly orcs instead of remembering that they have another faction to write for.

Take two identical mechanisms and then neglect one for several years or even a decade and then complain about why it dosent work anymore...

The problem is not the orcs. In any case the problem is the race of the Horde in Total. Writers seem to like the races of the Horde and they like Humans and nothing else.

The Horde is established as a group of races. The alliance is cited as "humans and their friends."

The Orc theme looks good on trolls and Tauren but trolls and tauren still have their own lore.
On Dwarves and Genomes it looks good. But these seem not to have their own lore. Genomeran was the closest thing to that.

The Belfos and renegades are not forced to act like "skinny orcs". Instead they end up having their own personality and even their allies.
Darnei are basically Human with another form with the same religion. And the Kaldorei are forced to act like humans over and over again.


PS: The High King and the Council of the Horde is the clearest example that the writers do not care about the other races of the Alliance.

[Hellobolis]

I mean couldn't they have just sent all the Shamans and Druids to the Barrens and regrown the forests there?

barely any improvement after cataclysm update to the zone, so presumably not quite that easy to do.

but one imagines a cenarion circle led sustaining farming initiative could have had better results.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Given that the horde didn’t start the war in cata if the alliance had made a good will effort to work with them then ya there would be a pretty good chance they could have avoided the war in the short term and with new outside threats popping up like death wing they likely would avoid it in the long term to as garrosh would have other things to attack for glory.

[Calfredd]

I mean couldn't they have just sent all the Shamans and Druids to the Barrens and regrown the forests there?

Isn't that what the Cata version of the Wailing Caverns is about?

[VladlTutushkin]

The problem is not the orcs. In any case the problem is the race of the Horde in Total. Writers seem to like the races of the Horde and they like Humans and nothing else.

The Horde is established as a group of races. The alliance is cited as "humans and their friends."

The Orc theme looks good on trolls and Tauren but trolls and tauren still have their own lore.
On Dwarves and Genomes it looks good. But these seem not to have their own lore. Genomeran was the closest thing to that.

The Belfos and renegades are not forced to act like "skinny orcs". Instead they end up having their own personality and even their allies.
Darnei are basically Human with another form with the same religion. And the Kaldorei are forced to act like humans over and over again.


PS: The High King and the Council of the Horde is the clearest example that the writers do not care about the other races of the Alliance.

Because as i mentioned - they couldnt be bothered to write anything original and just cut corners by writing only for humans.

Alliance is a defensive pact between several kingdoms, as a matter of fact they shouldnt be “identical”.

- - - Updated - - -

barely any improvement after cataclysm update to the zone, so presumably not quite that easy to do.

but one imagines a cenarion circle led sustaining farming initiative could have had better results.

Barrens experiment run by a CC was a failure only because of them stumbling into nightmare heavy location, so to say. However if horde druids wanted with shamans help they could have done much more.

[Myradin]

The horde just should have taken Aszhara before the goblins got involved. Its not their sacred forest and pretty much no NE's were there to hold it against them anyway.

[Hellobolis]

Barrens experiment run by a CC was a failure only because of them stumbling into nightmare heavy location, so to say. However if horde druids wanted with shamans help they could have done much more.

if the nightmare was messing stuff up and it wasn't just caused by nature, how much better could it really have gone?

[Dazmalak]

Only reason Alliance was not as “exciting” as horde was because writers were too busy jerking off to muscly orcs instead of remembering that they have another faction to write for.

Take two identical mechanisms and then neglect one for several years or even a decade and then complain about why it dosent work anymore...

And yet instead of bringing the Alliance up to the level of the Horde, they kicked the Horde down to the level of the Alliance. Contrary to my teasing, I actually wanted to see more bite from the Alliance. More conflict, more aggression and thirst for revenge because those are very natural and human reactions towards a group of aliens that came from another planet and started slaughtering everything in sight. I think this was possible without making them "Horde 2.0", but instead they chose to keep the Alliance reactive and passive in most cases, always on the defensive and always "in the right"; which is a disservice to both sides and what I believe is the reason the faction war lost the interest of many fans. Their recent attempts with Tyrande fall flat because she is more or less acting alone, which paints her as a fringe lunatic rather than having a rational response to their home being razed.

But hey, now we can hold hands and fight whatever villain of the week from another dimension pops up to threaten "our" world. Isn't that what you wanted?

[geco]

And yet instead of bringing the Alliance up to the level of the Horde, they kicked the Horde down to the level of the Alliance. Contrary to my teasing, I actually wanted to see more bite from the Alliance. More conflict, more aggression and thirst for revenge because those are very natural and human reactions towards a group of aliens that came from another planet and started slaughtering everything in sight. I think this was possible without making them "Horde 2.0", but instead they chose to keep the Alliance reactive and passive in most cases, always on the defensive and always "in the right"; which is a disservice to both sides and what I believe is the reason the faction war lost the interest of many fans. Their recent attempts with Tyrande fall flat because she is more or less acting alone, which paints her as a fringe lunatic rather than having a rational response to their home being razed.

But hey, now we can hold hands and fight whatever villain of the week from another dimension pops up to threaten "our" world. Isn't that what you wanted?

It is no longer "Our world" it is the "world of humans".

[sam86]

Point. Tolerate is closer to the right phrase. Thrall didn't endorse a large scale Horde presence there but he didn't stop the logging activities or the Warsong actively..

he did try to stop the skirmishes, not the wood cutting itself, that part is pretty muddy and no idea what was his view official, probably faking ignorance because he doesn't want to f8ck entire Orgrimmar
as for SW and Horde tolerance, SW is like that since classic, pre-varian era, it has nothing to do with varian events, and i did clear that Theramore - lorewise - also protect horde members who seek shelters, the burning inn quest (if i remember right) in Dustwallow marsh shows how grimtotem abused that
lore isn't gameplay, lorewise Grimtotem aren't hostile to horde, yet they are in-game (pre-cata at least), same for many other npcs in-game who are hostile like Venture co

[VladlTutushkin]

And yet instead of bringing the Alliance up to the level of the Horde, they kicked the Horde down to the level of the Alliance. Contrary to my teasing, I actually wanted to see more bite from the Alliance. More conflict, more aggression and thirst for revenge because those are very natural and human reactions towards a group of aliens that came from another planet and started slaughtering everything in sight. I think this was possible without making them "Horde 2.0", but instead they chose to keep the Alliance reactive and passive in most cases, always on the defensive and always "in the right"; which is a disservice to both sides and what I believe is the reason the faction war lost the interest of many fans. Their recent attempts with Tyrande fall flat because she is more or less acting alone, which paints her as a fringe lunatic rather than having a rational response to their home being razed.

But hey, now we can hold hands and fight whatever villain of the week from another dimension pops up to threaten "our" world. Isn't that what you wanted?

I wanted one or another.

We EITHER settle things down and stop with fucken faction wars because Alliance never does anything about it...

OR

Alliance actually goes full bananas and dishes out humiliating and absolutely genocidal defeats to the horde but then horde retaliates and we settle for a war but with a restored parity between factions.

And yes, villains of the week CAN be fun. But not straight after horde nearly wiping out one race and threatening to do the same with the whole faction.

- - - Updated - - -

if the nightmare was messing stuff up and it wasn't just caused by nature, how much better could it really have gone?

Quests in the Caverns show that Nightmare can be exorcised with a dedicated group of skilled individuals. So essentially its just a one “barrier” which can be defeated and then its just a cave with water.

[Arikara]

Not with Garrosh or Sylvanas as Warchief, no.

If the Horde had a leader that wasn't specifically set up by Blizzard writers to be a warmongering idiot so that they can continue to drive the tired faction war plot? And provided that the Night Elves willingly offer up a portion of Ashenvale for logging purposes? Heck, have their druids assist in nourishing and regrowing trees and they can easily get away with giving up a much smaller portion of Ashenvale. Yeah, that sure would end any and all conflict taking place.

[geco]

Not with Garrosh or Sylvanas as Warchief, no.

If the Horde had a leader that wasn't specifically set up by Blizzard writers to be a warmongering idiot so that they can continue to drive the tired faction war plot? And provided that the Night Elves willingly offer up a portion of Ashenvale for logging purposes? Heck, have their druids assist in nourishing and regrowing trees and they can easily get away with giving up a much smaller portion of Ashenvale. Yeah, that sure would end any and all conflict taking place.

If the Horde had a single leader willing to negotiate it would be enough. The small section of land that is thirsty is already Azhara.

[Arrashi]

No because i words of Virgil: "Well i want your too".

[Plehnard]

Well just look at the regions in Ashenvale the horde conquered in Cataclysm. They destroy every thing they touch in a short time.
If they would have gotten half of that region it wouldn't have been long until they needed the other half because their part turned into a desert.

[schwank05]

It made perfect sense militarily for Sylvanas to destroy Darnassus, and abandon the UC. I was thinking this would be the perfect opportunity for each faction to get an entire continent. But alas Blizzard does stupid things with the story all the time.

[Razion]

Thrall nominated Garrosh as Warchief during a particularly tense moment between Alliance and Horde. He did it knowing pretty well that NONE of his advisors would endorse him, that Garroshes top priority even during Northrend campaign was to keep pushing the Alliance. He did all that leaving Horde in its most difficult of times (Orgrimmar was pretty much destroyed in Cata prepatch), and didn't choose to come back even after the Grimtotem situation or Garrosh vs Vol'Jin.

Thrall is smart enough to know this shit wouldn't work, must have been on purpose.

I think Thrall did it to punish himself. He did as much to himself too when he isolated the Orcs to Durotar. It's pretty tragic, but maybe it's part of his character to have been so scarred by Blackmoore and his gladiator days that maybe he never got over it.

[Soon-TM]

I mean couldn't they have just sent all the Shamans and Druids to the Barrens and regrown the forests there?

Again, druids aren't terraforming miracle doers, and shamans aren't rain-making machines, despite their in-game skills.

[Raisei]

that was only later on. good chance he would never even have gotten popular as a potential replacement for thrall if the horde had had more resources early on. a less warmongery leader would have been a more likely successor.

Hardly. They eagerly followed Sylvanas into an unprovoked war, even though they had no need for it. They had just gotten new allies of which some were especially skilled in teleportation magic. Any and all resource problems should have been easily solved at that point.

No. The truth is that many in the Horde just want to have war. It's an intrinsical part of their culture and without it they literally have nothing to do. Hence why they eagerly grab their axes every time someone points at a target. Thrall tried to keep this bottled up and surpressed, since he saw the folly in it, but he could not remove this trait completely. Hence why as soon as he was out of the picture, his successor only had to say the word and Orgrimmar jumped at the chance of blood.

[VladlTutushkin]

It made perfect sense militarily for Sylvanas to destroy Darnassus, and abandon the UC. I was thinking this would be the perfect opportunity for each faction to get an entire continent. But alas Blizzard does stupid things with the story all the time.

Blood elves cant leave EK even more so then night elves cant leave Kalimdor because blood elves will shrivel and die if someone destroys Sunwell.