Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Wangming]

No because i'm neither part of my countries armed forces nor an American and thus have no reason to bother or be asked. Would you be ready to go to Hell to rescue Kim Jong Un?

Which is exactly how the Horde feels when being asked to go to the Shadowlands to bring back Anduin and Jaina.
But quite honestly I think it is time to agree to disagree and move on. What we aren't doing isn't really speculation abou 9.x and 10.0 anymore.

[Raetary]

And the only reason you say that is cause he's not acting sympathetic to you. Sometimes people are too far gone, its a common thing in Fantasy and its not a bad one.

Wrong character trope buddy...

The Jailer follows the ancient evil trope, he's not a sympathetic villain.
He can't be "too far gone" when there is nowhere for him to go.

[Le Conceptuel]

He completely crippled the Shadowlands and every zone other than Ardenweald with his army? He captured every single important leader of Azeroth and corrupted Anduin and made him pretty much take out one of the leaders of the Shadowlands?

I hate that "WELL THEY ARE JUST TELLING US HE IS THREATENING!" argument because it makes no fucking sense at all.

Well, the issue is that we have no other grounding for the Shadowlands. For one, we don't really get a good look at what it looks like normally, so it doesn't have as much impact to tell us it's broken. Furthermore, it's not so much due to actual skill on his part that his army is so powerful, it simply seems like an ass-pull. Admittedly, it is true that he technically had a good plan, but the issue is that, for one, sending everyone the Maw and making them part of his army isn't something that was hinted at all too well through the rest of the story, save for a few quotes here and there from a dying Dark Ranger and a few Purified in Drustvar.

It is true that he's had huge impact, it's just not impact we've had any reason to feel and impact without much direct build-up. He sort of comes out of nowhere after Sylvanas builds up his armies with no real interaction with his other minions other than Helya. Maybe if we were given more of his minions converging together, doing more shit actively and clearly together, then it would be more interesting. More signs of Helya through BFA collaborating with Sylvanas other than a passing mention by Odyn, more explicit Meuh'Zalah references to build up to his appearance, and eventually having them all slowly hint at the Jailor being the mastermind behind everything, with buildup maybe being given from the moment they really conceptualized him, like mentions of his name somewhere or something.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Wrong character trope buddy...

The Jailer follows the ancient evil trope, he's not a sympathetic villain.
He can't be "too far gone" when there is nowhere for him to go.

No shit, thats what I said. Too far gone meaning you can't reason with said person.

Well, the issue is that we have no other grounding for the Shadowlands. For one, we don't really get a good look at what it looks like normally, so it doesn't have as much impact to tell us it's broken. Furthermore, it's not so much due to actual skill on his part that his army is so powerful, it simply seems like an ass-pull. Admittedly, it is true that he technically had a good plan, but the issue is that, for one, sending everyone the Maw and making them part of his army isn't something that was hinted at all too well through the rest of the story, save for a few quotes here and there from a dying Dark Ranger and a few Purified in Drustvar.

An asspull would be if he suddenly killed the arbiter and not needing the sigils to break free. All of the SL story is building up to him, he himself is not an asspull, he's just been introduced in the last year or so. You aren't going to get all the info on him right away. Not like we knew who the fuck Kil'Jaeden was when we first saw him.

[Le Conceptuel]

No shit, thats what I said. Too far gone meaning you can't reason with said person.



An asspull would be if he suddenly killed the arbiter and not needing the sigils to break free. All of the SL story is building up to him, he himself is not an asspull, he's just been introduced in the last year or so. You aren't going to get all the info on him right away. Not like we knew who the fuck Kil'Jaeden was when we first saw him.

Well, we were given an introduction to Kil'Jaeden in Warcraft III over time. We learned who Archimonde was and who the other members of the Legion were, then they built up the hierarchy leading to Kil'Jaeden. Basically, we got a similar experience but markedly less cohesive. The Legion was introduced as an idea with leaders we didn't know. The Jailor and his army were introduced simultaneously, even if we knew all of his lieutenants beforehand. The connection between them was there, but it could have been a stronger buildup than Sylvanas simply mentioning souls being fed to the hungering darkness and moving on.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

You seem to confuse motivation to the characters with motivation to the players. Of course Characters can't bear the thought of losing Baine even though we have lost a horde leader every other expansion. And the Stormwind population wouldn't be able to contain their tears is Anduin, the king with the least peaceful reign in Azerothian history, had to be replaced by somebody else.

But what of the players? How close is our hero to these people? Depending on where they level, a new player might not even know who they are.

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Also having taking away characters we have a reason to care about. In the middle of a war that absolutely requires them to get back soon. And coming back to the main second at the earliest possible time. Yes.

Yea but the taking away your friends plot isn't related to the Jailer.

Like you couldn't leave Shadowbringers' plot alone, by the time it is big enough to reach your world, it's doomsday by default.

Shadowlands.... is anyone really convinced at this point the Jailer would be a threat without our meddling? Seems to me like the answer is no, especially after the 9.1 cinematic.

[huth]

Shadowlands.... is anyone really convinced at this point the Jailer would be a threat without our meddling?

Of course. Without our meddling, there wouldn't be an Archon anymore, Maldraxxus would now be completely under the control of the three remaining houses with the Seat being inaccessible, Ardenweald would be overrun by Drust and Mueh'zala and there'd still be nobody to stop Denathrius from messing with Revendreth. It's only a matter of time before Zovaal finds the key in Korthia and the others would be far to weak to pose any effective resistance, if they were even trying.

The situation now may not be great, but without us, it would be even worse.

[Nyel]

It's not that he isn't a threat, it's just that he's so bland and uninteresting that I don't really care if he is. I'm not invested in him, I don't feel threatened.

This. You simply cannot write a new supervillain within one expansion and expect players to care for him, feel threatened by him or even make him look like a competition to Sargeras. The Jailer fails from A to Z in every aspect, because Blizzard's writing is a) too weak to achieve a believable supervillain within this short amount of time and b) the Shadowlands are just not established enough that we as players could care about them.

I care less about the Shadowlands as I cared about alternate Draenor. Just because Blizzard says the Shadowlands are SO IMPORTANT, it doesn't have to be reality from a player perspective. And that's the main issue with the entire expansion. Blizzard tells me it's important, yet I don't feel it. That's the problem. If you have to tell me it's important, it's already lacking that naturally.

The Jailer as of now is just a big fat clown, nothing else. I couldn't care less about him or his actions, because they are just pitiful in comparison to other villains. Blizzard telling me how powerful he is doesn't help either, it makes him just look worse.

[Raetary]

No shit, thats what I said.

No you didn't.
You argued that the @GR8GODZILLAGOD didn't like the Jailer because he wasn't sympathetic, despite sympathy being completely irrelevant to his character.

You somehow managed to apply a character trope to him in your head that absolutely does not apply to him.

Too far gone meaning you can't reason with said person.

That's not what "too far gone" means...

[Makabreska]

Which is exactly how the Horde feels when being asked to go to the Shadowlands to bring back Anduin and Jaina.
But quite honestly I think it is time to agree to disagree and move on. What we aren't doing isn't really speculation abou 9.x and 10.0 anymore.

I mean, it's not like we have been doing it for years (Cata Thrall, MoP Vol'jin). If certain character is key to stop the Big Bads master plan, we gotta act. Regardless of the allegiance.

[Wangming]

I mean, it's not like we have been doing it for years (Cata Thrall, MoP Vol'jin). If certain character is key to stop the Big Bads master plan, we gotta act. Regardless of the allegiance.

Sloppy writing being sloppy for years is no excuse. But that is the last I'm willing to say about this subject. Let's go back on topic.

[razorpax]

Somehow we have to bring Azeroth into the game. It would make zero sense to have Shadowlands completely disconnected from Azeroth. My issue with this is that it’s basically a rehash of 8.3 or Legion up until 7.3, when Azeroth is invaded by the Jailer / Mawsworn and we have to defend Azeroth. It would be exactly what we did in the last two expansions. In case of Legion it‘s just the opposite order, but eventually still the same.

I agree but as long as the story works and we get more than we did in 8.3 I’m ok with it

They have been teasing the jailer attacking Azeroth for so long it’s like lore blue balls

[TheFirstOnes]

Which is exactly how the Horde feels when being asked to go to the Shadowlands to bring back Anduin and Jaina.
But quite honestly I think it is time to agree to disagree and move on. What we aren't doing isn't really speculation abou 9.x and 10.0 anymore.

You're also going in there to save your former Warchief, and your OTHER former warchief's best bro. Besides, by the time you're there, you're neutral.

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Sloppy writing being sloppy for years is no excuse. But that is the last I'm willing to say about this subject. Let's go back on topic.

How's it sloppy? You can't just say "let's go back to the topic" without providing such a poor argument that makes no sense whatsoever. But I digress.

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No you didn't.
You argued that the @GR8GODZILLAGOD didn't like the Jailer because he wasn't sympathetic, despite sympathy being completely irrelevant to his character.

You somehow managed to apply a character trope to him in your head that absolutely does not apply to him.



That's not what "too far gone" means...

People dislike him cause he feels forced into the story, and hasn't done shit yet. Idk where everyone is bringing up sympathy shit from. He's WoW's Satan. Fuck Sympathy.

[razorpax]

Ok so assuming we don’t go to dragon isles in 9.2 or 9.3 then I’m fairly certain 10.0 goes there for a few reasons

1. Wrathion is essentially a titan infused dragon due to the MoP leggo quest
2. The last 3 expansions have been a big bad going for Azeroth and we need the aspects empowered as a line of defense
3. It fits the pattern of minor threat after big threat along with the fact we are in the time of nozdormu disappearing building up to the infinite


We only know that the jailer “ascends” in the raid and it’s assumed to the seat of the arbiter

Now is the next patch Azeroth or is it us going on the defensive since in 9.1 we continue our attack.

The jailer also seems to have his goal set on getting to Azeroth and killing her which is hinted to since 8.3 whispers then 9.0 and now 9.1

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People dislike him cause he feels forced into the story, and hasn't done shit yet. Idk where everyone is bringing up sympathy shit from. He's WoW's Satan. Fuck Sympathy.

The only way I can see people arguing for sympathy is that we don’t know why he was locked up

[Aeluron Lightsong]

People dislike him cause he feels forced into the story, and hasn't done shit yet.

I think to say he hasn't done anything is dishonest, he's done plenty, its just been past events and thats enough to say he's been interfering in WC history for a very long time. Just cause you don't see him directly doesn't mean he isn't involved. His influence is touching all of the Shadowlands.

[Pheraz]

Incoming blizzard twist:
We don’t kill her and she’s abandoned by the jailer realizing her mistakes and since she is about to truly die she offers to save Anduin in exchange for us not killing her. Next patch we spend our time defending Azeroth against the jailer’s forces and Sylvanas sacrifices herself to save us and she’s given a proper horde funeral and a statue in stormwind because they love genocidal maniacs that murdered their fathers and sons...oh wait it’s so Danny can RP in game

Omg xD please noooo
I'm so done with this cheesy character.
They really need a big cut in the story. Everything is so weirdly tied to cliff hangers between patches and built around some overarched toons. It feels like a never ending bad anime

[Makabreska]

I think to say he hasn't done anything is dishonest, he's done plenty, its just been past events and thats enough to say he's been interfering in WC history for a very long time. Just cause you don't see him directly doesn't mean he isn't involved. His influence is touching all of the Shadowlands.

It's still weak when you introduce a brand new Big Bad with no backstory and then go "oh BTW he was actually behind this and that in the past". Feels retconned. With Azshara for example you always knew she was behind the scenes, scheming, and you could see the effects.

[Cosmic Janitor]

I think to say he hasn't done anything is dishonest, he's done plenty, its just been past events and thats enough to say he's been interfering in WC history for a very long time. Just cause you don't see him directly doesn't mean he isn't involved. His influence is touching all of the Shadowlands.

This makes it even way worse, because now everything in WoW can suddenly be tied back to him. A ridiciculous looking nobody is suddenly the mastermind behind the whole franchise.

[Varx]

It's still weak when you introduce a brand new Big Bad with no backstory and then go "oh BTW he was actually behind this and that in the past". Feels retconned. With Azshara for example you always knew she was behind the scenes, scheming, and you could see the effects.

I agree, would have felt better if there was some sort of hint of the jailer way back in legion since that's the start of the Sylvanas / Anduin trilogy. Or AT LEAST BFA.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

It's still weak when you introduce a brand new Big Bad with no backstory and then go "oh BTW he was actually behind this and that in the past". Feels retconned. With Azshara for example you always knew she was behind the scenes, scheming, and you could see the effects.

It isn't a retcon, the area behind the helm of domination and Frostmourne was vague, all we knew that the dreadlords were involved. "Feels" don't matter. It also explains why Uther in Wrath says Arthas is a dwindling presence in the Lich King's mind. It might of not been intentional but it does fit that there's something else going on with the Lich King.

I agree, would have felt better if there was some sort of hint of the jailer way back in legion since that's the start of the Sylvanas / Anduin trilogy. Or AT LEAST BFA.

All that death theme was pretty obvious and there is at least one mission for Death Knights to go into the Shadowlands(Not so subtle). Also Sylvanas's new dark powers when killing Saurfang was different already hinting at a new power. Sylvanas becoming Warchief was already being speculated because somehow a loa saying Sylvanas of all people should be Warchief is in most people's eyes weird as fuck. Stormheim and Sylvanas having a deal with Helya was odd and we still don't know what that is but since Helya is in Shadowlands(The Maw rather).

Well there's been some setup of Sylvanas having worked with someone for sometime now but not directly saying it.