If the night elves gave half of Ashenvale to the Horde, would there have been peace?

[Kathranis]

For a time, maybe. The Horde banded together with the night elves by the end of WC3, anyway, to fight Archimonde. It would at least have avoided unnecessary casualties up to that point.

Of course, let's be honest, the night elves joining the Alliance was always kind of a contrivance for WoW's faction system, same as the Forsaken joining the Horde, and the resulting conflicts.

War would have always broken out under Garrosh and Sylvanas, with the story and motivations they've been given.

[Moonrage]

Garrosh is literally result of nelf policy of nothing to horde, if u want to go that route: there would be no Garrosh in first place if nelfs gave wood to horde

but no, there won't be peace because Ashenvale isn't only source of problem, and just make it ashenvale only is way too simplified (and even ashenvale problem isn't just wood since wc3 days, blood was spilled and orcs damned themselves and Mannaroth and all that sh8t)

This is some top tier victim blaming.

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There are some things to note, though. 1) Ashenvale isn't solely the night elves' to give, other sentient creatures dwell there too, not to mention the forest itself is somewhat that. 2) Before the war in Cataclysm there were efforts to avoid it by having a summit in Theramore (shown in the comic). After some initial bickering they managed to calm down and actually discuss Stormwind-Orgrimmar lumber trade. (At this point Thrall was still the Warchief.) 3) Twilight's Hammer screwed that up like it did everything else back in those days.

Those sentient creatures that live in Ashenvale all have ties to the Night Elves, so yes it is Night Elf territory.

[Every Pwny]

Night elves gave all of Azshara to the horde and it wasn't enough, so obviously not.

[Moonrage]

Amen to all of this. I am so sick to death of Alliance passiveness and forgiveness. Whenever an Alliance character does buck the trend, like Genn, Jaina, or Tyrande, they're chastised for it (and, in the case of the women, considered to have gone crazy). Now Genn* and Jaina have gone back to essentially being toothless and Tyrande's Night Warrior power-up seems to be more bark than bite when actually put to the test. Canonically, I believe the Alliance is supposed to have won all these wars, but as a player it sure doesn't feel like it. I would actually prefer we lost the war if we actually got to inflict some real injury to the Horde for once.

I remember when Jaina turned on the Horde after they bombed Theramore, and Horde players were calling her every name in the book. A woman who always advocated for peace between the factions got stabbed in the back by the Horde, and horde players were surprised she turned on their faction. I swear they're a different breed.

And they're doing it again to Tyrande, who's people were massacred by the Horde, yet she's the crazy one for wanting vengeance? Yeah F that.

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Night elves gave all of Azshara to the horde and it wasn't enough, so obviously not.

Tyrande already knew back in MoP that the Goblins would run through Azshara's lumber in no time.

[Every Pwny]

Tyrande already knew back in MoP that the Goblins would run through Azshara's lumber in no time.

Yep, but she gave it a chance anyway and then was proven to be completely correct.

[Rozz]

I doubt it, the orcs and goblins are too stupid not to eat through all their immediate resources. They'd run out of wood in less than 5yrs. The Night Elves could've given them every forest in Kalimdor and the idiots still would have waged war out of sheer malice.

Edit: And on that note, should the NEs give up some of their most sacred forests and spiritual land for idiot races that self-destruct every 3yrs? They'd gain more out of giving Murlocs an education and having them defend the coastlines.

[Chumahki]

This is some top tier victim blaming.

Why would anyone blame the Orcs, who are the victims? They have been welcomed on Azeroth by other native races, such as the majestic Tauren and the fathers of the evil Night Elves, the honorable Trolls, and have just as much right to exist on Azeroth as the cowardly, space-goat Draenai, who brought the Burning Crusade to Draenor, and to Azeroth itself. The slavers of the Alliance of Evil will try to twist reality to fit their fascist agenda. The genocidal acts of the maniacal and flea-bitten Genn demand response. Garrosh was perfectly fine until the Sha's influence corrupted him. Sylvanas struck a greater blow against the Alliance of Evil than any other so-called "Warchief". Sylvanas' only crime was killing members of the Horde. Peace will come when the soil of Azeroth absorbs the very last drop of Alliance blood. Until then, the Horde will strike out against the Alliance of Evil at every opportunity, as is morally just.

Infracted.

[sam86]

Night elves gave all of Azshara to the horde and it wasn't enough, so obviously not.

Azshara has a joke of lumber, in first place nelfs presence there was never strong either
in fact was Azshara a nelf zone in warcraft lore prior to wow? Everyone knows that Ashenvale is alliance zone (not talking pvp-world gameplay-wise, i talk pure lore here), Barrens is horde, but Azshara? Azshara seemed abandoned zone, no one cares about

And they're doing it again to Tyrande, who's people were massacred by the Horde, yet she's the crazy one for wanting vengeance? Yeah F that.

because the way it was presented
Tyrande seems to want to kill anyone just for sake of killing, if u even just think about Sylvanas - even if u are her enemy and wants to kill her - that makes u Tyrande's enemy too, check how she treat her allies before her enemies
And Jaina hate have solid ground, the 'peace-lover' jaina full out support the alliance aggression yet play victim neutral when horde retaliated, i'm against the method (what is like nuke bomb) but even as I see myself Thrall's horde loyalist (wc3 horde) Jaina crossed the line and earned a retaliation
It is ironic that the most reasonable/logical anti-horde character was Varian, at least Varian was enslaved and forced to fight after his memory wipe, varian crime is against entire Azeroth when he was busy qq while literally world was getting destroyed in wc3, but he at least got memory wipe and he only saw slavery and gladiator life when he restarted, both Tyrande and Jaina are just blind idiots, Tyrande will kill anyone even ppl who actually support her cause just because they exist, and Jaina keep ask why she got attacked while she was fully supporting alliance armies (in case u missed it, alliance attack on southern barrens predates horde action in ashenvale, u can argue that horde attack was inevitable but that means u should bolster defense and try diplomatic routes first, not give Garrosh the reason he needed to be well Garrosh)

I doubt it, the orcs and goblins are too stupid not to eat through all their immediate resources. They'd run out of wood in less than 5yrs. The Night Elves could've given them every forest in Kalimdor and the idiots still would have waged war out of sheer malice.

Edit: And on that note, should the NEs give up some of their most sacred forests and spiritual land for idiot races that self-destruct every 3yrs? They'd gain more out of giving Murlocs an education and having them defend the coastlines.

and alliance doesn't do that? in fact if u go idiot way, gnomes are arguably most idiotic race with how they f8cked themselves
no race showed restrains against nature except nelfs/taurens in wow so far

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-snip-

u really ruining horde image here...
if i'm not clear i'm all for peace, but peace out of strong not weakness, i don't want horde invade alliance lands, but in same time i don't want horde to die in streets because alliance are busy making out with trees
(and for that peace to happen, forsaken need drastic change, also that started with how sylvanas f8cked them)

[eillas]

You just say that because you don't like him. There is zero proof of your statement. It's just your headcanon.

The fact we do know is that Garrosh acted after being refused Ashenvale's resources by the Night Elves, an act that further starved Orgrimmar. It was a decision of taking the resources by force or starving to death, so war made sense.

Had the Night Elves shared their resources Orgrimmar wouldn't be starving in the first place, Garrosh might not even have been appointed Warchief. Thrall chose him in the first place because of this situation and that war was inevitable as a result of it.

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You're taking that quote way too literally. It's just a statement of taking action, taking matters in their own hands and providing a better future for the Horde. Don't forget that they lost their homeworld and were intruders and chained, they just want to survive and thrive, something that is constantly threatened by the Alliance and other forces.

Don't forget war was declared by Varian after the Battle of Undercity and the Wrathgate. The Alliance started this whole mess. The Night Elves started with starving Orgrimmar. The Horde fought back hard. Why blame them?

No, garrosh was an individual who wanted to conquer all of azeroth. In a book, he declared the intent to wipe out the alliance. Orgrimmar isn't entitled to Night elf stuff. What about the incident where Sylvanas wiped out a fleet of alliance troops.

[Every Pwny]

Tyrande seems to want to kill anyone just for sake of killing

That's pretty much never happened. Not only did she give the horde Azshara to try to get peace, she didn't kill Saurfang. If she is as blood thirsty as you are pretending, he would have died. She hasn't killed anyone "just for the sake of killing", she didn't even kill Sira after Sira was working with Sylvanas to literally murder children. So it's clear you have zero story knowledge if this is your abysmally incorrect take.

[sam86]

Only way to sate Horde need of wood is to grow new wood at Azshara or Barrens. I dont see the problem in that, and its will require less efforts than guarding all forest, or even dying in wars.

trees take years to grow, so that option is out
also in wow it isn't clear when u obey real world laws, and when not, for example Jaina use teleport everywhere, yet alliance must 'reach zandalari in 6 days before the moon rise' (literally in same chapter, like why the F*CK not use a portal from jaina!?)

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That's pretty much never happened. Not only did she give the horde Azshara to try to get peace, she didn't kill Saurfang. If she is as blood thirsty as you are pretending, he would have died. She hasn't killed anyone "just for the sake of killing", she didn't even kill Sira after Sira was working with Sylvanas to literally murder children. So it's clear you have zero story knowledge if this is your abysmally incorrect take.

she seems to want, she didn't actually do it, she is barely restraining herself
she threatened her own adopted daughter before, so far she didn't do that, but she is lunatic on stage, and no one is even arguing that Sylvanas must die alliance or horde to have conflict with them in first place either

[Kalisandra]

Ashenvale was the primary cause of Alliance and Horde's tensions in Kalimdor -- Durotar and Orgrimmar lacked the essential resources to sustain their population properly after the Third War, and the night elves seemed less than willing to provide them. It has been a major point of conflict -- in the original game, Cataclysm, in the Fourth War, etc.

As far as we know, Tyrande giving Azshara to the Horde was able to guarantee at least several years of peace, as the Horde abandoned most of their outposts in Ashenvale.

What if Tyrande and her night elves just gave the orcs half their territory? Would that have settled tensions between them permanently, and perhaps even averted or settled the Alliance-Horde faction conflict once and for all?

Hardly. The Horde, or at least the Orcish part of it, doesn't actually like farming and forestry. They like war, thankyouverymuch. Add in the Goblins' insatiable demand for stuff to fuel their industries (most of which either make guns and bombs or make more machines for cutting down trees and digging up stuff), and it'd only buy a few years before the Horde would be taking the other half.

Note that the Orcs didn't even attempt to farm the shores of that nice big river that runs through their lands. The one that will be bringing silt down from Ashenvale every spring, and leaving it on their lands. They're all 'our lands are too barren to support us', but they're hardly even trying.

[eillas]

Garrosh is literally result of nelf policy of nothing to horde, if u want to go that route: there would be no Garrosh in first place if nelfs gave wood to horde

but no, there won't be peace because Ashenvale isn't only source of problem, and just make it ashenvale only is way too simplified (and even ashenvale problem isn't just wood since wc3 days, blood was spilled and orcs damned themselves and Mannaroth and all that sh8t)

no he didn't, he kept trying to control and punish however breaks it, in fact during Thrall regime humans were under Thrall direct protection if they visit Orgrimmar (something alliance never did in SW, but they did in Theramore), Thrall was pro-peace strongly and pushing it
When ur entire squad is disobeying u, either u risk losing ur grip on all ur military, or just ignore some idiotic small skirmishes (which what wsg is officially lore-wise, small-scale skirmished not approved by either alliance or horde)

Garrosh was a warmongerer, if it wasn't the wood, it would have been something else. He desired war, he was a hot headed fighter who had a vision where the horde would dominate all.

[sam86]

Hardly. The Horde, or at least the Orcish part of it, doesn't actually like farming and forestry. They like war, thankyouverymuch.

pre wod or post wod -.- ? because sadly before wod sh8t on all established lore blizz went out of their way to show how shamanatic orcs were, and how they were idiots who got tricked to war with long detailed plan
we literally don't know what is wod official lore yet, we are waiting so far 8? years for blizz to answer us about the big pile of sh8t that was WoD lore and its stand on canon, also how they sh8tconned all major orc figures to make them like WoD is really concerning
sometimes i hate how blizz just sh8t on wc3, if not for wc3 i may not even liked horde, they are now horrible in comparison to wc3 version of themselves

[Every Pwny]

she seems to want, she didn't actually do it, she is barely restraining herself
she threatened her own adopted daughter before, so far she didn't do that, but she is lunatic on stage, and no one is even arguing that Sylvanas must die alliance or horde to have conflict with them in first place either

She doesn't even seem to want to, she killed the people trying to genocide the night elves in Darkshore and that is about all she does. Now she is going after Sylvanas, despite the entire horde working to wipe out the night elves before and after the burning of Teldrassil. She is angry, as anyone would be after the genocide of their people, but she's not out of control killing people like Nathanos, Sira, Sylvanas, not even close. She hasn't killed one person or seemed like she wanted to kill one person "just for killing". It's insane you would even pretend that is the case when there are far more characters that kill for far less in this game.

[Kalisandra]

In “War Crimes” when Anduin asked Garrosh a “what if” question on would have there being peace if Alliance just gave horde resources Garrosh just grunted that it was not about resources.

Also Alliance is not supposed to give horde resources and land, especially when it land both culturally and geographically important to one of its races.

And inhabited by that races friends and allies (drayds, firbolgs, etc.). It wasn't just empty forest, but people's homes.

And Garry never understood logistics, etc. anyway. There's that conversation he has with Saurfang in Northrend where Saurfang is explaining why they can't just conquer the whole place without bases, etc. Garrosh doesn't understand at all, and it's very clear that he learned nothing from his Northrend experience.

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It's not just orcs. In this great time of resource crisis for the Horde, apparently the goblins devoted an enormous, insane amount of resources to a huge terraforming project to turn Azshara into a Horde symbol which is so ridiculously dumb that I have no words to describe it. It's so large that it's only really visible from orbit, or, I guess, on maps, which I rather generously assume was the intent. If they have the resources to do something like that, you'd think irrigation and cultivation would be on the table too.

I think Goblins like farming even less than Orcs do.

[Shedaar]

Remind me, how many times horde tried to "die" Alliance and it all ended up with Alliance petting you on the back as you whinge?

Every. Fucken. Time.

It is a very one sided "rivalry" if i ever saw one.

When did alliance won vs. the horde without actually horde helping them out?

[geco]

When did alliance won vs. the horde without actually horde helping them out?

In BFA basically the alliance wins. The rebellion only hurries things.

And that in all BFA they do not let the alliance fight 100%. Not even the Kaldorei can fight 100% in all BFA.

[FelPlague]

Ashenvale was the primary cause of Alliance and Horde's tensions in Kalimdor -- Durotar and Orgrimmar lacked the essential resources to sustain their population properly after the Third War, and the night elves seemed less than willing to provide them. It has been a major point of conflict -- in the original game, Cataclysm, in the Fourth War, etc.

As far as we know, Tyrande giving Azshara to the Horde was able to guarantee at least several years of peace, as the Horde abandoned most of their outposts in Ashenvale.

What if Tyrande and her night elves just gave the orcs half their territory? Would that have settled tensions between them permanently, and perhaps even averted or settled the Alliance-Horde faction conflict once and for all?

reminder that in cata, the night elves actually did offer them part of ashenvale as a peace offering but then the whole peace thing went out during the attack on theramore, and the horde overstepped their bounds into ashenvale...

[Kalisandra]

You say that the night elves gave Azshara to the horde... the only reason they did was because Varian (the Leader of their Alliance) strongly wanted it to happen and Azshara was allready 99% abandon by the night elves...

Their Firbolg allies lived there, so ceding Azshara to the Horde meant hanging them out to dry.