Ardenweald Assault [Massive Spoilers]

[TheFirstOnes]

I ask about new

Allow me to counter. Give me an interview that tells me the Eternal Ones are keeper level, cause all the interviews that called them Titan level were more recent than the one you and Houle showed me.

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God ... Explaining again. Among the creatures of Death, there is none stronger than the Eternal Ones, and among the creatures of Order, there is none stronger than the Titans, which is why these two Pantheons take their place immediately after the First Ones. This does not mean that the Eternal Ones are equal to the Titans.

We have Ion calling them analogous with one another, we have another guy calling them on par with Titans, and we have them being on the same cosmic level below the First Ones.

We have 1 interview from August showcasing the Winter Queen as Keeper lvl, which is vague, and is contradicted by the other 3-4 interviews that exist, and are either older than the interview, or around the same timeframe as the one with Steve. It's possible Steve didn't get the memo back then, or things just changed overall as time went on. I mean, Ion considered the Jailer as a Titan lvl antagonist for 9.0, and that's not really wrong, since he was akin to the other Pantheon of Death members at the time. Tho, currently in 9.1, he's likely far more powerful than them.

Besides, that's not really how it works. When they say "The Cosmic Pantheon's are akin to one another", that doesn't only mean "Oh yeah, they're akin to eachother in that the Eternal Ones and the Titans are the most powerful in their cosmologies". You COULD argue it, but I don't think that's how it works. Both rule their respective realms, and both share VERY similar duties with similar authority. The only debatable factor is if their powers are equivalent with one another, which I'm saying they are. Especially with the Jailer when compared to Sargeras. Not every Eternal One is part of the Death Pantheon, and not every Titan is part of the Titan Pantheon.

[darkoms]

Allow me to counter. Give me an interview that tells me the Eternal Ones are keeper level, cause all the interviews that called them Titan level were more recent than the one you and Houle showed me.

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We have Ion calling them analogous with one another, we have another guy calling them on par with Titans, and we have them being on the same cosmic level below the First Ones.

We have 1 interview from August showcasing the Winter Queen as Keeper lvl, which is vague, and is contradicted by the other 3-4 interviews that exist, and are either older than the interview, or around the same timeframe as the one with Steve. It's possible Steve didn't get the memo back then, or things just changed overall as time went on. I mean, Ion considered the Jailer as a Titan lvl antagonist for 9.0, and that's not really wrong, since he was akin to the other Pantheon of Death members at the time. Tho, currently in 9.1, he's likely far more powerful than them.

Besides, that's not really how it works. When they say "The Cosmic Pantheon's are akin to one another", that doesn't only mean "Oh yeah, they're akin to eachother in that the Eternal Ones and the Titans are the most powerful in their cosmologies". You COULD argue it, but I don't think that's how it works. Both rule their respective realms, and both share VERY similar duties with similar authority. The only debatable factor is if their powers are equivalent with one another, which I'm saying they are. Especially with the Jailer when compared to Sargeras. Not every Eternal One is part of the Death Pantheon, and not every Titan is part of the Titan Pantheon.

Lol what. We beat Denathrius, he not Titan level.
Every Eternal One was member of Pantheon of Death before betrayal of Zovaal and every born Titan was member of Pantheon of Order before betrayal of Sargeras.

[TheFirstOnes]

Lol what. We beat Denathrius, he not Titan level.
Every Eternal One was member of Pantheon of Death before betrayal of Zovaal and every born Titan was member of Pantheon of Order before betrayal of Sargeras.

There are an infinite amount of Eternal Ones within reach realm of Death, I would imagine. Only 6 of them became part of the Pantheon of Death, just like how there were likely many World Souls, or Titans that exist outside the Titan Pantheon. But Sargeras destroyed most of the remaining World Souls, and the other non-Pantheon Titans are likely within the Realm of Order.

And I already explained why Denathrius was beat in multiple threads.

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I also don't get it. If the Jailer in 9.0 is confirmed to be a Titan level antagonist, and he got imprisoned by the other Eternal Ones (Some of them being essentially his SIBLINGS), then why can't they be around the same level also? By the time SL happened, the Jailer's power still wasn't that great. It wasn't until the end of Revendreth-9.1, that his power became fuckin massive.

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Also would only prove my theory more if Eonar was the WQ's sister.

[Venziir]

I ask about new

And I pointed out, that it wasn't a new one. Thus you are just late to the party.

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We had super charged artefact weapons during Legion, so it's not like we did not have powerful buffs to our characters back then as well.

Exactly. We haven't really deal with anything powerful without some sort of aid for a long, long time.

[darkoms]

And I pointed out, that it wasn't a new one. Thus you are just late to the party.

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Exactly. We haven't really deal with anything powerful without some sort of aid for a long, long time.

God, another one ...
Okay, I'll explain it so that you understand. I ALREADY SEE this interview, which is why I asked for new ones.

Infracted.

[Venziir]

God, another one ...
Okay, I'll explain it so that you understand. I ALREADY SEE this interview, which is why I asked for new ones.

Why on Earth, do you want a new interview to state exactly what an old one already established?

[Soon-TM]

Old gods are glorified sperm cells of void lords ever since Chronicle. Void lords might be equal to a titan, but we've never seen one.

That's one of the worst retcons ever imho. Going from enigmatic, inscrutable, madness-inducing, millennia-old entities to glorified Underrot ticks was a kick in the nuts for the Lovecraft simp that I am

[voidox]

Nice play on numbers there. Doesn’t really matter considering we have an entire cinematic showcasing him not at all being weakened by us. Hell, he literally makes fun of us and toys with us. Try again.

lol, love how you just ignore and try to just dismiss the point I'm making

do you think being weakened is only a thing if he was visibly injured, bleeding or something? I never specified how weakened he was, just that by fighting us he was weakened. We could have been weakening him but not have weakened him enough for him to be near death or out of power (however the hell that worked out, we can go up against the legion and titans, but not hurt an undead dude). Anyways, I won't repeat myself on how hp bars are used to show that.

and btw, we've seen bosses at lower hp before but still taunting us or acting otherwise and whatnot.

Yes and my point still stood. He said health bars are not canonical things and you said "that's not the point" and then continue to cite the health bar.

no one is saying the hp number or bar itself is canon, but that hp bars are used to trigger events and for things to happen based on a bosses hp, i.e. we weaken them in some way and then stuff happens.

Can think of the hp bars as an in-game way to show us weakening/hurting/bypassing/overcoming/passing time/w.e the boss in the story.

Lich King was at 10% when he kills us all and is fine. Health bars are not canon. You mention Jaina, but I'm pretty sure she's fine the next time you see her which further drives the point how that health bars are not an indicator of any canonical injuries. Gelbin was on the ground and his capsule takes him away LITERALLY incapacitated.

jaina was weakened during her fight, literally why she does stuff like Ice block and escape before being killed. She has dialogue saying: "no, it can't end like this" before escaping. Sure she looked fine the next time we see her, but that doesn't mean we didn't weaken her in the fight itself. We clearly do, also physical injuries are not the only thing for weakening.

and someone else went over the lich king dialogue, so I'll just add that while Arthas was toying with us in terms of not using his full power, the players still were able to weaken him (however way that was, I'm not going into specifics) which made him have to use his full power on us.

[TheFirstOnes]

"do you think being weakened is only a thing if he was visibly injured, bleeding or something? I never specified how weakened he was, just that by fighting us he was weakened. We could have been weakening him but not have weakened him enough for him to be near death or out of power (however the hell that worked out, we can go up against the legion and titans, but not hurt an undead dude). Anyways, I won't repeat myself on how hp bars are used to show that."

You do realized we had LOTS of borrowed power against the Legion and Argus, yeah? Power that was LONG gone by the time we faced Nathanos? Also, no. We didn't weaken him. Nothing implies he was weakened. Stop.

[UndedoKoleda]

https://www.wowhead.com/news/lordmon...y-power-316822 It's not new, nor was it hard to find. It took me like 10 seconds.

Well, the https://sagamer.co.za/2020/08/20/a-d...f-hibernation/ one is more recent, and very particularly focuses on the subject on who stands where.

To be honest, I myself don't even consider the Eternal Ones to be on a Titan Keeper level. They are just shown as inept again, and again, and again, and agaaaaaaain...

In this very quest chain mentioned in the OP, the Winter Queen "hides" her sigil(the one that she is trusted to protect with her life), then she does... Wait, what does she do? Instead of protecting probably the last(or second to last) "key" needed to unchain the Jailer, she hides it, and get this, in the bloody Heart of the Forest. Who would have thought that she'll hide it there of all places??? I wouldn't, but apparently the Jailer or Sylvanas did. One would expect her holding the sigil with herself, and defending it to her last breath, but... I guess she wanted to "live" more than she wanted to stop the Jailer from breaking free. Maybe she is just not that concerned about him.

The Eternal Ones are shown as a bunch of clowns from the very start of Shadowlands. The very questing experience made me want to facepalm on several occasions. They wouldn't be able to repel a simple murloc invasion, it's laughable comparing them to Titans.

[Katchii]

That's one of the worst retcons ever imho. Going from enigmatic, inscrutable, madness-inducing, millennia-old entities to glorified Underrot ticks was a kick in the nuts for the Lovecraft simp that I am

While I can understand a bit, this just makes the Void Lords even more impressive to me. It may mean the Old Gods aren't the masterminds they were made out to be, but it doesn't change what they're capable of on their own, and if the Old Gods are this powerful on their own, what does that say about the Void Lords?

If these "glorified Underrot ticks" can be as enigmatic, inscrutable, and madness-inducing as they are, which is impressive...how much more impressive does that make the Void Lords? If these world ending beings who are feared, and their power respected, by the Titans are just the underlings of the Void Lords, how truly powerful are their masters?

[Le Conceptuel]

While I can understand a bit, this just makes the Void Lords even more impressive to me. It may mean the Old Gods aren't the masterminds they were made out to be, but it doesn't change what they're capable of on their own, and if the Old Gods are this powerful on their own, what does that say about the Void Lords?

If these "glorified Underrot ticks" can be as enigmatic, inscrutable, and madness-inducing as they are, which is impressive...how much more impressive does that make the Void Lords? If these world ending beings who are feared, and their power respected, by the Titans are just the underlings of the Void Lords, how truly powerful are their masters?

Well, that is the Worf Effect. The issue is if the Void Lords simply appear underwhelming when they appear to the audience, in which case it will absolutely diminish the Old Gods more than build up the Void Lords, like how Zovaal is too underwhelming to appear better than Sargy-Wargy.

[TheFirstOnes]

Can people actually fucking read my posts before bringing up interviews I legit already talked about?

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Well, the https://sagamer.co.za/2020/08/20/a-d...f-hibernation/ one is more recent, and very particularly focuses on the subject on who stands where.

To be honest, I myself don't even consider the Eternal Ones to be on a Titan Keeper level. They are just shown as inept again, and again, and again, and agaaaaaaain...

In this very quest chain mentioned in the OP, the Winter Queen "hides" her sigil(the one that she is trusted to protect with her life), then she does... Wait, what does she do? Instead of protecting probably the last(or second to last) "key" needed to unchain the Jailer, she hides it, and get this, in the bloody Heart of the Forest. Who would have thought that she'll hide it there of all places??? I wouldn't, but apparently the Jailer or Sylvanas did. One would expect her holding the sigil with herself, and defending it to her last breath, but... I guess she wanted to "live" more than she wanted to stop the Jailer from breaking free. Maybe she is just not that concerned about him.

The Eternal Ones are shown as a bunch of clowns from the very start of Shadowlands. The very questing experience made me want to facepalm on several occasions. They wouldn't be able to repel a simple murloc invasion, it's laughable comparing them to Titans.

How's it laughable? The Eternal Ones got fucked by Zovaal about as hard as the Titans when they got fucked by Sargeras.

And I already talked about the interview. I don't disagree that they are inept. In fact, they are. The issue is that when people bring up this 1 interview, I bring up like 3-4 others saying otherwise, one of them being from months later and by Steve himself, the same guy who, during August, claimed the Eternal Ones were "Keeper level".

It's funny. Almost like Blizzard changes their mindsets mid-way through shit.

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Well, that is the Worf Effect. The issue is if the Void Lords simply appear underwhelming when they appear to the audience, in which case it will absolutely diminish the Old Gods more than build up the Void Lords, like how Zovaal is too underwhelming to appear better than Sargy-Wargy.

Nothing about claiming all the sigils and potentially taking control of the Realms of Death is "underwhelming". Stop it.

Also, Sargeras has literally been written as a dumbass that got mind fucked by some Nosferatu lookin mf's. Sure, Sargeras is far more powerful than them strength wise, but his will is so easily fuckin broken.

[UndedoKoleda]

Can people actually fucking read my posts before bringing up interviews I legit already talked about?

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How's it laughable? The Eternal Ones got fucked by Zovaal about as hard as the Titans when they got fucked by Sargeras.

And I already talked about the interview. I don't disagree that they are inept. In fact, they are. The issue is that when people bring up this 1 interview, I bring up like 3-4 others saying otherwise, one of them being from months later and by Steve himself, the same guy who, during August, claimed the Eternal Ones were "Keeper level".

It's funny. Almost like Blizzard changes their mindsets mid-way through shit.

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Nothing about claiming all the sigils and potentially taking control of the Realms of Death is "underwhelming". Stop it.

Also, Sargeras has literally been written as a dumbass that got mind fucked by some Nosferatu lookin mf's. Sure, Sargeras is far more powerful than them strength wise, but his will is so easily fuckin broken.

Except that in the interview that I linked he is talking particularly about the power level of the Winter Queen. In the interview that you linked, they are answering another question about another entities. They just give the Pantheon of Death as an example of lower power than the First Ones. They are not comparing the Pantheon of Death with the Titans. It's like if they said that Old Gods are stronger than centaurs and Titan Keepers. That doesn't mean that the centaurs are equal to power to Titan Keepers.

If the Winter Queen was Titan level being we wouldn't have that clown fiesta in Anderweald. It's pretty obvious.

On another note- If someone from Blizzard, who is responsible for the cut-scenes, is reading this, please, please, PLEASE, if it's not too late, make the Winter Queen do the surprisedpikachuface when she learns that her sigil was stolen.

[TheFirstOnes]

Except that in the interview that I linked he is talking particularly about the power level of the Winter Queen. In the interview that you linked, they are answering another question about another entities. They just give the Pantheon of Death as an example of lower power than the First Ones. They are not comparing the Pantheon of Death with the Titans. It's like if they said that Old Gods are stronger than centaurs and Titan Keepers. That doesn't mean that the centaurs are equal to power to Titan Keepers.

If the Winter Queen was Titan level being we wouldn't have that clown fiesta in Anderweald. It's pretty obvious.

On another note- If someone from Blizzard, who is responsible for the cut-scenes, is reading this, please, please, PLEASE, if it's not too late, make the Winter Queen do the surprisedpikachuface when she learns that her sigil was stolen.

"They are not comparing the Pantheon of Death with the Titans."

Except they explicitly put them at the same Cosmic level that's below the First Ones.

"It's like if they said that Old Gods are stronger than centaurs and Titan Keepers. That doesn't mean that the centaurs are equal to power to Titan Keepers." Which is funny, cause legit only 1 Old God gave the Keepers actual trouble.

"In the interview that you linked, they are answering another question about another entities."

The Winter Queen is part of that Pantheon though? What do you mean?

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And why would they make a cinematic on the Winter Queen going ":O"?

[UndedoKoleda]

Also, Sargeras has literally been written as a dumbass that got mind fucked by some Nosferatu lookin mf's. Sure, Sargeras is far more powerful than them strength wise, but his will is so easily fuckin broken.

What do you even mean by that? It was stated by Blizzard that Sargeras wasn't corrupted by the Nathrezim, he started his Burning Crusade because of the Void Lords, not the Dreadlords.

[Le Conceptuel]

Nothing about claiming all the sigils and potentially taking control of the Realms of Death is "underwhelming". Stop it.

Also, Sargeras has literally been written as a dumbass that got mind fucked by some Nosferatu lookin mf's. Sure, Sargeras is far more powerful than them strength wise, but his will is so easily fuckin broken.

Well, it's about a lot more than power. There's a certain degree of (1) nuance and (2) menace to make a good villain. Sargeras wasn't particularly nuanced, but he at least had a motive that made him interesting (both before and after the retcon, and I honestly preferred the pre-Chronicles story of him just breaking and thinking there was no way to ensure order in the universe; it felt more "mythical" that way and made him a perfect overarching villain for everything) and he had a lot of menace. He was the top dogs of plenty of baddies who already did plenty of bad shit. Although Zovaal was the top dog of plenty of baddies, and each of them was pretty individually-interesting (see: Helya), they didn't do much shit that we knew tied back to him. Introducing him so late on makes him feel like a real ass-pull more than an actual overarching villain. More discussion of the actual name "Zovaal" at times or something about a "Maw" would give him more menace as we see that all of these guys really are just lieutenants. Instead, they each felt like their own individual threats, which is good to a degree, but ultimately made it all feel more like a supervillain teamup in Shadowlands rather than like Zovaal was the villain all along.

Add to that, although it is clear it would be "bad" to take control of all the realms of the afterlife, we don't really know why. We got a few good glimpses into why the system works, but more emphasis on that and perhaps, ironically, less nuance on if it may actually be a good thing would make him feel sincerely menacing and like a major threat to the systems of the universe, maybe with more "stagnancy" to the usual state of the afterlife. No one would want an eternal place of rest disrupted, especially if you're going to spend eternity there - the way they didn't make the afterlife feel like an afterlife is part of the issue, too.

That, and Zovaal simply has a rather one-note personality, and what little he does have feels fairly similar to Sargeras. He's just another big, deep-voiced evil guy who looks and acts in a very generically-threatening way. He also doesn't seem very bright, despite supposedly being a master manipulator. Perhaps if they kept his original design, it would at least preserve some menace and make him look more like the WoW Devil.

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

What do you even mean by that? It was stated by Blizzard that Sargeras wasn't corrupted by the Nathrezim, he started his Burning Crusade because of the Void Lords, not the Dreadlords.

He's talking about the book Enemy Infiltration - Preface which heavily hints at the Nathrezim plotted Sargeras' becoming a traitor.
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Ene...tion_-_Preface

[TheFirstOnes]

What do you even mean by that? It was stated by Blizzard that Sargeras wasn't corrupted by the Nathrezim, he started his Burning Crusade because of the Void Lords, not the Dreadlords.

Oh no...oh no no no. You don't know. Oh lord, you don't know.

https://www.wowhead.com/item=183742/...ration-preface Just read this. While Sargeras' fear the Void still exists, essentially the Dreadlords but the Void Lords on the spot so they would appear as the "main enemy", when in reality Death was. They basically tricked Sargeras into thinking the Void was evil. Deceived the former Defender like a fiddle.

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He's talking about the book Enemy Infiltration - Preface which heavily hints at the Nathrezim plotted Sargeras' becoming a traitor.
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Ene...tion_-_Preface

"You know me all too well, Optimus"- Megatron from Transformers Prime.

But replace Optimus and Megatron with me and Pebrocks

[UndedoKoleda]

Oh no...oh no no no. You don't know. Oh lord, you don't know.

https://www.wowhead.com/item=183742/...ration-preface Just read this. While Sargeras' fear the Void still exists, essentially the Dreadlords but the Void Lords on the spot so they would appear as the "main enemy", when in reality Death was. They basically tricked Sargeras into thinking the Void was evil. Deceived the former Defender like a fiddle.

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"You know me all too well, Optimus"- Megatron from Transformers Prime.

But replace Optimus and Megatron with me and Pebrocks

That makes no sense. Sargeras would have stumbled into a Void infested World Soul eventually, even without the Dreadlords. It's not like the Dreadlords set it up, it's just the Void doing Void stuff. That's actually the Void's goal, so I don't see how could the Dreadlords deceive him about something that is happening for real? You are giving too much credit to the Dreadlords, in the end they are just another enslaved species under Sargeras command. They are his b*tches.