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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Depakote View Post
    Yes i'm for real.
    16 dungeons, 8 raids for Burning Crusade
    16 dungeons, 9 raids for Wrath of the Lich King
    14 dungeons, 6 raids for Cataclysm
    9 dungeons, 5 raids for Mists of Pandaria
    8 dungeons, 3 raids for Warlords of Draenor
    13 dungeons, 7 raids for Legion
    11 dungeons, 5 raids for Battle for Azeroth
    9 dungeons, 1 raid for Shadowlands ** so far
    Seeing the fall of of dungeons from Cataclysm to Legion one might make the argument that mythic+ and the affixes they bring make bringing more dungeons to the game a harder thing to do but i'm sure you have some other 'realistic' excuse.
    7 raids in Legion?

    Emerald Nightmare, Nightold, Trial of Valor, Tomb of Sargeras, Antorus... that's five. What am I missing?

  2. #42
    The Unstoppable Force Chickat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hellobolis View Post
    what was it?

    tbc: 1
    wotlk: 3
    cata: 3
    mists: 0
    wod: 0
    legion: 4
    bfa: 2
    shadowland: 2-3 sheduled that we know off i think?

    guess pretty steady aside from a dip in mist/wod.
    Didn't wrath have 4 The ToC dungeon?

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    I do miss the big does of 3 new dungeons at the end of the expansion. I had a ton of fun in ICC heroics or Timewalker heroics.

  3. #43
    Brewmaster Depakote's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethenil View Post
    7 raids in Legion?

    Emerald Nightmare, Nightold, Trial of Valor, Tomb of Sargeras, Antorus... that's five. What am I missing?
    Ya sorry, i went by this list https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Adv...e_Legion_raids and i misread the names of some of the thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by deenman View Post
    One thing to keep in mind,the resources placed in the dungeons in the recent expansion are far more complex and unique,tbc and wrath were pretty small on averege and the assets were very simple and copied from in world stuff
    Gonna need proof for that claim.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Depakote View Post
    I was just curious as to how Mythic+ may or may not interfere with getting new dungeons in modern WoW It honestly seems like they interfere with getting new dungeons in these new expansions because developers are too busy trying to balance the many affixes that come with mythic+ dungeons. Does that match up with history or am i just imagining things?
    Mythic + obviously helps. If youve ever played for any period of time, you would know from experience that the expansions since mythic+ are now much more likely to see new dungeons added through out. Prior to that, they didn't feel like adding any new dungeons later due to the fact that we didn't need them. They got used for a few weeks, if that, and then ignored. Now they are actually utilized all the way up to last patch. Even the launch dungeons.

    Need more proof of concept? MoP and Warlords had zero dungeons added to them. They both lacked a reason to do so. This was also when they added the mindset, after the cata dungeons got added that saw next to no use, that there wasn't a need to add more content that wont really be utilized. They just increased the ilevel of the other 5 mans.

    Then they add mythic+ and you see more added after launch. When for the two expansions prior, we saw zero additions.
    Quote Originally Posted by scorpious1109 View Post
    Why the hell would you wait till after you did this to confirm the mortality rate of such action?

  5. #45
    Brewmaster Depakote's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zantos View Post
    Mythic + obviously helps. If youve ever played for any period of time, you would know from experience that the expansions since mythic+ are now much more likely to see new dungeons added through out. Prior to that, they didn't feel like adding any new dungeons later due to the fact that we didn't need them. They got used for a few weeks, if that, and then ignored. Now they are actually utilized all the way up to last patch. Even the launch dungeons.

    Need more proof of concept? MoP and Warlords had zero dungeons added to them. They both lacked a reason to do so. This was also when they added the mindset, after the cata dungeons got added that saw next to no use, that there wasn't a need to add more content that wont really be utilized. They just increased the ilevel of the other 5 mans.

    Then they add mythic+ and you see more added after launch. When for the two expansions prior, we saw zero additions.
    None of that is backed by history.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Depakote View Post
    Ya sorry, i went by this list https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Adv...e_Legion_raids and i misread the names of some of the thing.

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    Gonna need proof for that claim.
    its called having eyes and a working cerebellum

  7. #47
    Brewmaster Depakote's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deenman View Post
    its called having eyes and a working cerebellum
    So you edit out your quote and try to attack me for making a mistake... Real classy! /s
    You can still provide evidence for your claim though I don't think you can or will.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Depakote View Post
    So you edit out your quote and try to attack me for making a mistake... Real classy! /s
    You can still provide evidence for your claim though I don't think you can or will.
    huh?edit what?i simply replied to your silly ''proof'' coment,what proof do you need?do you not SEE how the dungeons have advanced in complexity?compare the modern ones to fucking ramparts

    ofc there were more dungeons then,they were smaler and far less in scope and detail

  9. #49
    Brewmaster Depakote's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deenman View Post
    huh?edit what?i simply replied to your silly ''proof'' coment,what proof do you need?do you not SEE how the dungeons have advanced in complexity?compare the modern ones to fucking ramparts

    ofc there were more dungeons then,they were smaler and far less in scope and detail
    K, you have no proof, just conjecture, insults and hearsay. got it.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Depakote View Post
    K, you have no proof, just conjecture, insults and hearsay. got it.
    /facepalm what insults? what hearsay and conjecture...DO YOU EVEN PLAY THIS GAME?

    wait...am i getting punked?

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Depakote View Post
    Yes i'm for real.
    16 dungeons, 8 raids for Burning Crusade
    16 dungeons, 9 raids for Wrath of the Lich King
    14 dungeons, 6 raids for Cataclysm
    9 dungeons, 5 raids for Mists of Pandaria
    8 dungeons, 3 raids for Warlords of Draenor
    13 dungeons, 7 raids for Legion
    11 dungeons, 5 raids for Battle for Azeroth
    9 dungeons, 1 raid for Shadowlands ** so far
    Seeing the fall of of dungeons from Cataclysm to Legion one might make the argument that mythic+ and the affixes they bring make bringing more dungeons to the game a harder thing to do but i'm sure you have some other 'realistic' excuse.

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    Well, what is *your* excuse for WoD and Mists not having as many dungeons?
    M+ is a Legion thing.
    How does that data relate to your assumption when it's already flawed with a simple observation such as that?

    If I go by your logic, M+ added 4-5 dungeons back into the expansion cycle again, which could tell us that ressources spent into developing dungeons increased after they were reduced significantly in previous expansions.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2021-04-21 at 03:32 AM.

  12. #52
    Brewmaster Depakote's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    Well, what is *your* excuse fir WoD and Mists not having dungeons?
    M+ is a Legion thing.
    How does that data relate to your assumption when it's already flawed with a simple observation such as that?

    If I go by your logic, M+ added 4-5 dungeons back into the expansion cycle again, which could tell us that ressources spent into developing dungeons increased after they were reduced significantly in previous expansions.
    I'd need to know more about Mists' development to make a comment about that, WoD is easy enough cause they restarted development on that expansion, rushed it a bit and then gave up on it half way in.. Probably would have had a lot more content if they didn't do that.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by ro9ue View Post
    One thing that annoys me about some of the modern dungeons is that many are just reused outdoor areas you've been to before. A dungeon historically used to be a completely new area.
    You mean like the three HFC dungeons and raid being a copy of the outside of HFC? Or the 3 SSC dungeons and raid being a copy of the outside of SSC? Or the three dungeons and raid of TK being the same as the outside of TK, or the four Auch dungeons being a copy of the outside of Auch?

    Or ZF just being another sandy ruiny area of Tanaris?
    The most difficult thing to do is accept that there is nothing wrong with things you don't like and accept that people can like things you don't.

  14. #54
    In my experience content development and content tuning requires a completely different skillset. I'd be surprised if it was any different in WoW.

    Development of a dungeon requires actual developers, designers and others... basically a production team.
    Whereas tuning actually requires a data scientist/analyst and somebody who can just tweak a configuration in the db (or even just turn a knob, should the software infrastructure be developed in such a manner).

    There's other things that have changed with the expansions going by... other significant things that affect the whole process (not only the post-development teams, but also the development teams). The dungeons have become a lot more complicated than they used to be.

    Just take the 1st dungeon of an expansion for instance:
    TBC Ramparts vs SL Necrotic Wake

    Trash;
    Ramparts trash barely had any tactics beyond "i hit things either with melee or shadowbolts" and the occasional "i fear howl once in a while".
    NW on the other hand features trash diversity; from whirlwinding mobs, to those summoning additional adds, those casting a shield up to the actual gauntlet encounter which ends with a unique boss pull mechanic. And there's also the matter of kyrian items which benefit you.

    Bosses:
    Ramparts 1st boss: Outside of "kill his healers 1st or keep them interrupted" he was just a damage sponge
    Ramparts 2nd boss: Summons adds periodically, otherwise hits with shadowbolt
    Ramparts final boss: Tank n' spank 1st the boss then the dragon... yippie kay yay that's it folks

    NW 1st boss: dones a frontal cone that 4/5 players should dodge, summons worms that empower should they land a hit, when killed worms leave puddles you shouldn't stand in, boss also periodically does an AoE around himself ---> that's pretty much more tactics than all 3 above bosses together

    Quote Originally Posted by Depakote View Post
    I'd need to know more about Mists' development to make a comment about that, WoD is easy enough cause they restarted development on that expansion, rushed it a bit and then gave up on it half way in.. Probably would have had a lot more content if they didn't do that.
    Cause you have that much knowledge about development as a whole, right?
    Last edited by Zmagoslav; 2021-04-21 at 04:35 AM.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Depakote View Post
    Yes i'm for real.
    16 dungeons, 8 raids for Burning Crusade
    16 dungeons, 9 raids for Wrath of the Lich King
    14 dungeons, 6 raids for Cataclysm
    9 dungeons, 5 raids for Mists of Pandaria
    8 dungeons, 3 raids for Warlords of Draenor
    13 dungeons, 7 raids for Legion
    11 dungeons, 5 raids for Battle for Azeroth
    9 dungeons, 1 raid for Shadowlands ** so far
    Seeing the fall of of dungeons from Cataclysm to Legion one might make the argument that mythic+ and the affixes they bring make bringing more dungeons to the game a harder thing to do but i'm sure you have some other 'realistic' excuse.
    I mean, you are just assuming, without even explaining your assumptions and expect others to write a thesis with sources? Providing proof in an argument is a 2 way road my friend.

    With the removal of badge gear, Blizzard saw a drop in dungeon participation - ergo less dungeons developed. With m+ they expected an increase in dungeon participation, thus it being worth more of their dev. time.

    Also, they have a similar argument for raids. Without LFR/normal there would be too little participation regarding raids, and it would not be worth their dev time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    Well, what is *your* excuse for WoD and Mists not having as many dungeons?
    M+ is a Legion thing.
    How does that data relate to your assumption when it's already flawed with a simple observation such as that?

    If I go by your logic, M+ added 4-5 dungeons back into the expansion cycle again, which could tell us that ressources spent into developing dungeons increased after they were reduced significantly in previous expansions.
    No, you don't get it. He does not need proof, because his opinions are legit. Proof is only required from us plebs, you know. /s

  16. #56
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Depakote View Post
    I was just curious as to how Mythic+ may or may not interfere with getting new dungeons in modern WoW It honestly seems like they interfere with getting new dungeons in these new expansions because developers are too busy trying to balance the many affixes that come with mythic+ dungeons. Does that match up with history or am i just imagining things?
    Nah dungeon amount has not really changed since mythic dungeons were introduced (wod)
    And not much since the change of how dungeons were made (Cata)

    And by that i means in tbc/wotlk they made only a couple dungeon "sets" these used the same tile set, and really could have been just 1 dungeon each, just with a few more bosses then a normal dungeons, these literally could have been things like wailing caverns in vanilla. or as we call em today mega dungeons.
    like the utgarde pinicle places, literally all coulda just been 1 dungeon...
    The auchidoun stuff too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    My ideas are objectively good

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Depakote View Post
    Not exactly. Mythic+ made content harder to access in comparison to LFR/LFD because of the ways that others think you should be playing the game not to mention the timer. Now if they made each key queable via LFD with everyone's key going up a level if you cleared the dungeon in time then sure, it'd be exactly the same but as we both know that's not the case no matter how one tries to paint it. LFR made the game better, Mythic+ as it is now made it much worse but that's not the debate I want to have in this thread.
    You completely miss the point of the guy you are answering to. It is about content being easier or harder. It is about participation. And in that cast, M+ does exactly what LFR does. Make people run the content more often. LFR did it by lowering the barrier of entry, and m+ does it by keeping the rewards relevant.

    So yes, M+ does exactly what LFR does in terms of player participation, which is an important metric in this discussion we are having.

    But sure go on, how I have no "proof", while never having provided single source of yours so far.

  18. #58
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Depakote View Post
    Yes i'm for real.
    16 dungeons, 8 raids for Burning Crusade
    16 dungeons, 9 raids for Wrath of the Lich King
    14 dungeons, 6 raids for Cataclysm
    9 dungeons, 5 raids for Mists of Pandaria
    8 dungeons, 3 raids for Warlords of Draenor
    13 dungeons, 7 raids for Legion
    11 dungeons, 5 raids for Battle for Azeroth
    9 dungeons, 1 raid for Shadowlands ** so far
    Seeing the fall of of dungeons from Cataclysm to Legion one might make the argument that mythic+ and the affixes they bring make bringing more dungeons to the game a harder thing to do but i'm sure you have some other 'realistic' excuse.

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    It's not the point of this thread.
    ???
    "The dungeon count added before M+ were smaller, so M+ must have made making dungeons longer"


    What the fuck?

    So you are saying, there was less dungeons in mop and wod, because M+ made dungeons take longer to make? what? Mythic+ dungeons were added in legion... so why would that effect wod and mop?
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    My ideas are objectively good

  19. #59
    The reason why the dungeon count went down is because dungeon design changed. Previously dungeons were made in hubs. Like Dire Maul or Blackrock in Classic. They reused assets to make multiple versions of the same dungeon basically. That changed with Cataclysm where they made every dungeon unique. That’s why we have four Auchindoun dungeons in BC and one in WoD. That is the reason for the dip in dungeon count in Cata to WoD.

    M+ clearly made them put more manpower into dungeon content again.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Depakote View Post
    Yes i'm for real.
    16 dungeons, 8 raids for Burning Crusade
    16 dungeons, 9 raids for Wrath of the Lich King
    14 dungeons, 6 raids for Cataclysm
    9 dungeons, 5 raids for Mists of Pandaria
    8 dungeons, 3 raids for Warlords of Draenor
    13 dungeons, 7 raids for Legion
    11 dungeons, 5 raids for Battle for Azeroth
    9 dungeons, 1 raid for Shadowlands ** so far
    Seeing the fall of of dungeons from Cataclysm to Legion one might make the argument that mythic+ and the affixes they bring make bringing more dungeons to the game a harder thing to do but i'm sure you have some other 'realistic' excuse.
    in cata 5 dungeons used the previously already made dungeons and just did some smaller changes (ZA, ZG, SFK, DM, HoT - technicaly not pervious dungeon but all assets except bosses were from dragonblight zone) and dungeons in BC and WOTLK were "winged" - you had 2-3 dungeons with the same assets used, dungeons now are all completely different...
    dont get me wrong, i wouldnt mind more dungeons with the same aesthetics, it just makes the comparison based solely on number a bit unfair...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethenil View Post
    7 raids in Legion?

    Emerald Nightmare, Nightold, Trial of Valor, Tomb of Sargeras, Antorus... that's five. What am I missing?
    invasion points and broken isles, seems like counting pictures is easier than reading

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    Quote Originally Posted by Depakote View Post
    K, you have no proof, just conjecture, insults and hearsay. got it.
    he is right though, for art assets you literaly just have to use your eyes to see they used the same shit inside multiple dungeons and outside in zone - fly around any BC dungeon entrance and then go in any of the 3-4 dungs there,its the same shit all over the place... thats all proof you need unless you are blind...

    as for abilities, use your dungeon journal, old bosses in dungeons had 1-2 abilities, hell single dungeon boss now usualy have more abilities and mechanics than whole dungeons used to have...

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    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    So you are saying, there was less dungeons in mop and wod, because M+ made dungeons take longer to make? what? Mythic+ dungeons were added in legion... so why would that effect wod and mop?
    how dare you use logic to disprove his biased point of view!

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