If the night elves gave half of Ashenvale to the Horde, would there have been peace?

[Lorgar Aurelian]

There was an entire part of (I think it was, memory is shitty) the Varian novel where the night elves broke off the trade agreement because the Twilight's Hammer framed the Horde for brutally killing and maiming a group of druids. They still had an agreement up until shortly before cata at least. It couldnt've been the wrathgate.

When night elves called off the trade agreement due to the Horde's attack, Garrosh didn't bother to attempt to clear up the misunderstanding.

If your taking about wolf heart it only takes place after the agreement is already over and after the cataclysm. At which point the alliance had already launch assaults against the horde and garrosh was Importing mammoth men to attack ashenvale.

[Jastall]

It is a poor comparison. Darkshore is a shithole, not exactly resource-rich, and Sylvanas's war goal of 'lol just kill everyone' didn't match Garrosh's of seizing the land. Especially since we know what Garrosh would do if he had Darkshore - he arms his proxies and builds up a presence there in conventional warfare. Darkshore, in as much as it's anything except bad, is deliberately provocative on Sylvanas's side, down to bringing in troops that have no stake in the land whatsoever.

Now if we were talking Ashenvale you might have a point since as far as we know the Horde took it over, but Blizzard kinda forgot about it so we can't examine the Horde occupation policy. We don't even know if it's occupied.

Considering the clear-cutting we see near the Mor'shan ramparts and Horde camps in eastern Ashenvale, how the Goblins wastefully use Azshara and hell how they operate in general, how the Orcs wastefully use their lumber and ore lining up their city with spikes while it still has no roads or significant infrastructure beyond zeppelin towers (to say nothing of them hardly using the river and coastline provided to them already) and how you already had Forsaken apothecaries doing experiments in Ashenvale back in vanilla, I highly doubt the results would be that much different, and Garrosh doesn't exactly seem like the type to plant trees to begin with.

We're told mostly out of game that the Horde needs resources badly, we're shown that the Horde has no problem feeding its people and fielding armies all over the world, and we're also shown the faction being incredibly wasteful of what it does have. This makes it very hard to take the muh resources sob story seriously at all from my point of view, especially since the Orcs's baseline eagerness for war makes it sound like an excuse half the time.

Sylvanas being even worse than the norm because of her BFA-era lolevil tendencies doesn't absolve the rest of the pack. Darkshore isn't Ashenvale but it does have a large coastline, game aplenty and lumber - the Horde is said to badly need wood and food, but all they do with the place is put up Goblin machinery and spray toxic sludge everywhere, and that's before Nathanos orders the entire place blighted.

[AcidicSyn]

Ashenvale was Night Elf lands and had been for literally thousands of years, the horde had zero claim or stake in it. There was no reason for the night elves to give it to them.

Moreover, seeing as the Horde was there for a strictly extractive purpose, once they were done with the trees they had harvested they'd have to go about harvesting more. And I see no reason to believe that the horde, much less Garrosh's Horde, would have abided by being content with half of a forest.

As for the lack of continuity, it's largely the same story for all of Cataclysm. Alliance lose a lot (All of Gilneas, Hillsbrad, Alterac Mountains and Azshara from a gameplay standpoint,) Horde lose a town here and there (Camp Taurajo, that's pretty much it) and any "contested" lands (taken almost exclusively from the Alliance) are placed into a permanent state of limbo. What's the state of Gilneas? Who knows! Why don't the Alliance try and retake it in the actual story? Shut up and stop asking questions!

I thought Cannonically speaking the Alliance had already retaken Gilneas on their way to Lorderon? (I know, not reflected in game which is annoying) I wish they'd update this stuff to show in game every single expansion frankly. New Horde toons might get orders from Garrosh, Vol'jin, Or Sylvanas depending on the quest if they're leveling in Kalimdor. The demolishers are still at the Zoram'gar strand attacking Darkshore from pre-war of thorns. It's jarring

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If that's how you view it then the Alliance has virtually never been the aggressor, the Forsaken have spent their short existence nonstop attacking and destroying alliance settlements from the onset. With that mindset the concept of night elves even trying to have a trade agreement with the orcs is almost comically futile...which was kind of my point, honestly.

The conflict was inevitable. Night elves were doomed the moment orcs settled their new homeland so close to Ashenvale.

They were only doomed because the writers decided they should be.

IMO the night elves should have joined the Horde and the alliance should have gotten the Blood Elves. Or, perhaps better yet, have the Night Elves be the aggressors, it wouldn't have been out of character for them (That's how they greeted the Warsong in wc3 in their debut). I feel like the Night Elves in WoW are some kind of soft-version of them, they definitely should be more aggressive, or at least the sentinels should be.

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Hell, even in Wrath, the idiot orc was all "ME SMASH HUMEES AND DEADERS AT SAME TIME" to Varok. To which Varok all but said "No, you - you idiot, no."

Humees and Deaders?

Lat gruk urk blah? Ib lat frm skygud ipy?

[Niter]

They were only doomed because the writers decided they should be.

This pretty much sums it up nicely. Although I disagree that the Night Elves would ally with the Orcs (the fel-tainted made more powerful by demonic steroids infused chaos orcs that killed Cenarius... maybe they would ally with the Mag'har), the Night Elves would never give up their ancestral lands. Some people seem to think that saying "I need this to survive" makes you automatically entitled to it. It just does not. Even giving up Azshara seemed extremely out of character for a race that, originally, would attack any trespassers first and ask questions later.

The real issue here is that Blizzard took a lot of inspiration from Warhammer's Wood Elves (with a 'highborn ancestry' and eschewing their older practices and customs to favour one that is more compatible with their surroundings and their philosophy now), gave them a nice D&D's Drow spin (from the skin colour to a more matriarchal society) that resulted in a proud and extremely strong race despite being technologically 'behind' others when it came to engines of war and such, but relying on their allies, their strange type of magic (Nature and Arcane combined, for the most part, with some Holy magic here and there) and a mysterious deity. But then they didn't know what to do with that concept, so they made Night Elves a lot less fierce, made them a lot more akin to Humans, the ambushers that somehow got ambushed more than twice in their own territories and isolationists that are now Alliance's shock troops, no matter if their lands are left undefended.

It is so out of character it's not even funny.

Oh, and a Mammoth army to conquer a FOREST. As if the trees would give way to lovely mammoths, or that mammoths could crush trees so easily, repeatedly. It doesn't make sense. But then again, a race comprised of elves who are thousands upon thousands years old changed in less than 30 years because of The Human Potential. Well...

The entire discussion, including the one about Sylvanas, is that it's all plot device. Something has to happen, therefore, it will. Logic, character, backgrounds, nothing matters, only the story moving forward.

[VladlTutushkin]

This pretty much sums it up nicely. Although I disagree that the Night Elves would ally with the Orcs (the fel-tainted made more powerful by demonic steroids infused chaos orcs that killed Cenarius... maybe they would ally with the Mag'har), the Night Elves would never give up their ancestral lands. Some people seem to think that saying "I need this to survive" makes you automatically entitled to it. It just does not. Even giving up Azshara seemed extremely out of character for a race that, originally, would attack any trespassers first and ask questions later.

The real issue here is that Blizzard took a lot of inspiration from Warhammer's Wood Elves (with a 'highborn ancestry' and eschewing their older practices and customs to favour one that is more compatible with their surroundings and their philosophy now), gave them a nice D&D's Drow spin (from the skin colour to a more matriarchal society) that resulted in a proud and extremely strong race despite being technologically 'behind' others when it came to engines of war and such, but relying on their allies, their strange type of magic (Nature and Arcane combined, for the most part, with some Holy magic here and there) and a mysterious deity. But then they didn't know what to do with that concept, so they made Night Elves a lot less fierce, made them a lot more akin to Humans, the ambushers that somehow got ambushed more than twice in their own territories and isolationists that are now Alliance's shock troops, no matter if their lands are left undefended.

It is so out of character it's not even funny.

Oh, and a Mammoth army to conquer a FOREST. As if the trees would give way to lovely mammoths, or that mammoths could crush trees so easily, repeatedly. It doesn't make sense. But then again, a race comprised of elves who are thousands upon thousands years old changed in less than 30 years because of The Human Potential. Well...

The entire discussion, including the one about Sylvanas, is that it's all plot device. Something has to happen, therefore, it will. Logic, character, backgrounds, nothing matters, only the story moving forward.

Actually that. In Warhammer Athel'Loren was one of the last bastions of Order during the End Times BECAUSE it was so fucken hard to wage war in the dense ancient forest inhabited by elves and their allies. Literal horde of demons, beastmen (who are great foresters themselves btw), Daemon Princes... They kept attacking and yet didnt won, the whole thing collapsed after the world was ruined and fell apart essentially.

Thats the whole idea of that trope - people who dont leave their lands but master combat in their borders, becoming nigh impossible to conventionally (or unconventionally) defeat so most enemies simply leave them for last.

[geco]

This pretty much sums it up nicely. Although I disagree that the Night Elves would ally with the Orcs (the fel-tainted made more powerful by demonic steroids infused chaos orcs that killed Cenarius... maybe they would ally with the Mag'har), the Night Elves would never give up their ancestral lands. Some people seem to think that saying "I need this to survive" makes you automatically entitled to it. It just does not. Even giving up Azshara seemed extremely out of character for a race that, originally, would attack any trespassers first and ask questions later.

The real issue here is that Blizzard took a lot of inspiration from Warhammer's Wood Elves (with a 'highborn ancestry' and eschewing their older practices and customs to favour one that is more compatible with their surroundings and their philosophy now), gave them a nice D&D's Drow spin (from the skin colour to a more matriarchal society) that resulted in a proud and extremely strong race despite being technologically 'behind' others when it came to engines of war and such, but relying on their allies, their strange type of magic (Nature and Arcane combined, for the most part, with some Holy magic here and there) and a mysterious deity. But then they didn't know what to do with that concept, so they made Night Elves a lot less fierce, made them a lot more akin to Humans, the ambushers that somehow got ambushed more than twice in their own territories and isolationists that are now Alliance's shock troops, no matter if their lands are left undefended.

It is so out of character it's not even funny.

Oh, and a Mammoth army to conquer a FOREST. As if the trees would give way to lovely mammoths, or that mammoths could crush trees so easily, repeatedly. It doesn't make sense. But then again, a race comprised of elves who are thousands upon thousands years old changed in less than 30 years because of The Human Potential. Well...

The entire discussion, including the one about Sylvanas, is that it's all plot device. Something has to happen, therefore, it will. Logic, character, backgrounds, nothing matters, only the story moving forward.

There's a part of me that thinks this whole Teldrazzil thing is a blizzaard attempt to return to the elves of W3.
Bone Tyrande Night War has the powers of Tyrande from W3.

But as it usually happens, They don't think about the consequences.

[Super Dickmann]

Considering the clear-cutting we see near the Mor'shan ramparts and Horde camps in eastern Ashenvale, how the Goblins wastefully use Azshara and hell how they operate in general, how the Orcs wastefully use their lumber and ore lining up their city with spikes while it still has no roads or significant infrastructure beyond zeppelin towers (to say nothing of them hardly using the river and coastline provided to them already) and how you already had Forsaken apothecaries doing experiments in Ashenvale back in vanilla, I highly doubt the results would be that much different, and Garrosh doesn't exactly seem like the type to plant trees to begin with.

We're told mostly out of game that the Horde needs resources badly, we're shown that the Horde has no problem feeding its people and fielding armies all over the world, and we're also shown the faction being incredibly wasteful of what it does have. This makes it very hard to take the muh resources sob story seriously at all from my point of view, especially since the Orcs's baseline eagerness for war makes it sound like an excuse half the time.

Sylvanas being even worse than the norm because of her BFA-era lolevil tendencies doesn't absolve the rest of the pack. Darkshore isn't Ashenvale but it does have a large coastline, game aplenty and lumber - the Horde is said to badly need wood and food, but all they do with the place is put up Goblin machinery and spray toxic sludge everywhere, and that's before Nathanos orders the entire place blighted.

I won't dispute the top part regarding how once they actually have the land they'll over-extend on it quickly, but it's also relevant to note that they did industrialize. They had conveyors belts to build technological shit, the goblins and orcs both and while the orcs've never been ones for agriculture they're constantly shown to be very good at manufacturing and arming up quickly. As far back as WC2 they went from mudhuts to refining oil. So the difference between the place being stripmined and used rapidly or turning it into a giant factory farm vs. Sylvanas purposefully destroying it all in order to piss off night elves and get everyone involved killed is one of both scale and kind.

In terms of the resource issue, it's not all that hard to buy. History is rife with countries that are perfectly able to ramp up for a short time with what they have and with foreign handouts, rush another place and then live off of the pillage and use that to fuel further war. That after you steamroll a new area and dig into its relevant game and resources you're able to feed yourself while you can't do the same with a place literally called 'The Barrens' is not especially hard to buy. This has no bearing on whether you'd be able to maintain it long-term which I think we'll agree that the orcs aren't really masters of, even if I think at least animal handling they could do. Even the Old Horde were able to mass breed animals for slaughter.

[Syegfryed]

If that's how you view it then the Alliance has virtually never been the aggressor, the Forsaken have spent their short existence nonstop attacking and destroying alliance settlements from the onset.

no they didn't, the alliance in other hand were the aggressors since vanila, attacking durotar and the barrens

Forsaken only rly became the agressors in cataclysm with sylvanas expasionism in easter kingdoms and guilneas, Horde in general just start attacking back with Garrosh

With that mindset the concept of night elves even trying to have a trade agreement with the orcs is almost comically futile...which was kind of my point, honestly.

no, not rly, it have nothing do with each other.

The conflict was inevitable. Night elves were doomed the moment orcs settled their new homeland so close to Ashenvale.

they were doomed by their own xenophobic and isolationist mentality, their choices is what made then different from the tauren or trolls, who instead of arrows offered help

[Eggroll]

IIRC, at the end of SoO, Varian convinces Tyrande to give the Horde Aszhara uncontested for ressources... as a peace offering and a sign of good will

... and how did that turn out for the night elves, hu?

No, Horde is about destruction, and destruction only. They just want to see the world burn. They are incapable of being constructive. Look at what they did to Hillsbrad Foothills, Aszhara...

The only way to not have the Horde starting a war is by annihilating them.

[Syegfryed]

Considering the clear-cutting we see near the Mor'shan ramparts and Horde camps in eastern Ashenvale, how the Goblins wastefully use Azshara and hell how they operate in general, how the Orcs wastefully use their lumber and ore lining up their city with spikes while it still has no roads or significant infrastructure beyond zeppelin towers (to say nothing of them hardly using the river and coastline provided to them already) and how you already had Forsaken apothecaries doing experiments in Ashenvale back in vanilla, I highly doubt the results would be that much different, and Garrosh doesn't exactly seem like the type to plant trees to begin with. .

that is what happens when you are at war, before they only had to harverst what was necessary to build houses and alike, they also mostly got food from ashenvale


the thing is when you are at war with a force that can wipe you out(and lets be serious the horde before garrosh was a joke) you have to fuel the war machine somehow, that is a direct reflect of how things escalated, instead of taking for sustenance they had to take for the war effort.

[geco]

they were doomed by their own xenophobic and isolationist mentality, their choices is what made then different from the tauren or trolls, who isntead of arrows offered help

I'm still waiting to see where the Dranei, Warguens, Fulbogs, Diadras and all the other races that are nearby will be shot with arrows.

In any case, you can say that they are condemned since the Horde decided to harvest their sacred forests.

[Syegfryed]

IIRC, at the end of SoO, Varian convinces Tyrande to give the Horde Aszhara uncontested for ressources... as a peace offering and a sign of good will

... and how did that turn out for the night elves, hu?

No, Horde is about destruction, and destruction only. They just want to see the world burn. They are incapable of being constructive. Look at what they did to Hillsbrad Foothills, Aszhara...

The only way to not have the Horde starting a war is by annihilating them.

Rly cute trying to for the appeal to emotion but its just that, a fallacy.

If this was true the horde would have wiped out trolls and taurens to, and that didn't happen

its even funnier that your answer is also "annihilation"

[Syegfryed]

I'm still waiting to see where the Dranei, Warguens, Fulbogs, Diadras and all the other races that are nearby will be shot with arrows.

what the heck is a diadra? draeneis and worgens are alliance, period.

In any case, you can say that they are condemned since the Horde decided to harvest their sacred forests.

Again, they were condemned by their own mentality, they could damn well form an alliance of cooperation like orcs did with taurens, they chose not to, they chose to cast out the people who help then defend their sacred forest from the legion.

[Eggroll]

they were doomed by their own xenophobic and isolationist mentality, their choices is what made then different from the tauren or trolls, who instead of arrows offered help

How are they xenophobic? It's THEIR land and the orcs were invaders. How does defending your territory make you xenophobic?

[Lorgar Aurelian]

How are they xenophobic? It's THEIR land and the orcs were invaders. How does defending your territory make you xenophobic?

The orcs weren’t actually invading at first in WC3 they were just getting some wood and instead of trying to communicate the night elfs attacked them because they were outsiders (Ie being xenophobic) which then lead to the actual invasion.

[Syegfryed]

How are they xenophobic? It's THEIR land and the orcs were invaders. How does defending your territory make you xenophobic?

They only have those lands because the orcs help then in the third war, what would fucking cost the night elves to share resources with the people who help save their asses that were dying by famine?

it would cost nothing, they didn't because they are shitheads, taurens had less and helped what they could, and thats why taurens are allies and night elves not, their mentality.

[Eggroll]

Rly cute trying to for the appeal to emotion but its just that, a fallacy.

If this was true the horde would have wiped out trolls and taurens to, and that didn't happen

its even funnier that your answer is also "annihilation"

There's nothing cute about it. At the end of SoO Tyrande did grant the Horde Aszshara at Varian's request. Look what they did with it.

Horde had a funny way to repay the favor. They got concessions from the Alliance despite losing the war.

[geco]

The orcs weren’t actually invading at first in WC3 they were just getting some wood and instead of trying to communicate the night elfs attacked them because they were outsiders (Ie being xenophobic) which then lead to the actual invasion.

A stranger comes to your house and kills your dog for food.

They only have those land because the orcs help then in the third war, what would fucking cost the night elves to share resources with the people who help save their asses that were dying by famine?

it would cost nothing, they didn't because they are shitheads, taurens had less and helped what they could, and thats why taurens are allies and night elves not, their mentality.

and the Orcs are alive because the Kaldorei sacrificed their immortality to stop the legion.

PS and I repeat. Now the orcs have more. I don't see that they are sending anything to the Kaldoers.
They are not even giving him back the lands the Kaldoeri gave them.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

A stranger comes to your house and kills your dog for food.

The trees aren’t dogs and the night elfs them selfs hunt the animals in those forest.

[geco]

The trees aren’t dogs and the night elfs them selfs hunt the animals in those forest.

But they don't cut wood. If you did not notice, the trees are more important to the Kaldorei than the animals.