Why skilled player got so mad about casual getting better loot?

[kaminaris]

Tomb Raider 1 and 2 doesn't even have equipment, no?
Even then, if I remember correctly, finding secret areas, which is obviously harder to find due to being a secret gives you extra items which gives you an extra edge.
That's a reward for doing something that's considered harder in the game.

CP2077 I'm fairly sure doing later quests gives more rewards than earlier simpler quests. Didn't play much so could be wrong.

Witcher3 certainly gives you better rewards by doing harder quests, upgrading set items and such often requires more difficult and higher lvl content to be done to get that reward.

Horizon zero dawn the same thing, more abd better rewards the harder quests you do.

Doesn't dishonored give you new abilities when you progress? Which is giving reward as you clear content and later levels sure are harder than the first one more often than not.

But since you used the word difficulty setting I assume you talk about changing difficulties at the start menu? Then yeah, I agree on that's not really a standard.
I don't think that's applicable to wow though, since "difficulties" in WoW are just like progression in other games, which majority do have.

Progressing thru the game doesn't mean having harder quests = better rewards. Its a natural progression that in a lots of cases can be minmaxed to the point entire game is trivial = CP2077, Horizon, Witcher.

Thing is, later quests aren't harder, and even if, only slightly.

Dishonored with more amulets and more skills = ZERO difficulty, this game became so damn trivial.

Horizon difficulty was pretty linear.

If you want to compare it to wow its like first raid bosses vs last bosses. Difficulty setting in menu = lfr, mythic, heroic. With a difference that in games playing on easy doesn't give you worse gear than on hard.

AAAAAAAAAAND lets not compare initial quests aka tutorials and introductions, to mid game vs end game.

[Kumorii]

Progressing thru the game doesn't mean having harder quests = better rewards. Its a natural progression that in a lots of cases can be minmaxed to the point entire game is trivial = CP2077, Horizon, Witcher.

Thing is, later quests aren't harder, and even if, only slightly.

Dishonored with more amulets and more skills = ZERO difficulty, this game became so damn trivial.

Horizon difficulty was pretty linear.

If you want to compare it to wow its like first raid bosses vs last bosses. Difficulty setting in menu = lfr, mythic, heroic. With a difference that in games playing on easy doesn't give you worse gear than on hard.

AAAAAAAAAAND lets not compare initial quests aka tutorials and introductions, to mid game vs end game.

That's where we differ... I don't see LFR, mythic or heroic as difficulty settings like in a main menu... because it's just the normal progression. Everyone starts at HC dungeons to get ilvl to get mythic dungeons to increase ilvl. It's not like when you create a character you pick mythic difficulty and suddenly you get more rewards by doing the same content. I'ts literally like any other game where you unlock abilities or get better gear by progressing through the game with more difficult content as you go by.
I think a lot of people are disagreeing with you because of that distinction. Most people, I imagine, argue from a progression pov that exists in all games while you argue from a difficulty menu pov.

At least I understand what you mean now though

[chiddie]

Progressing thru the game doesn't mean having harder quests = better rewards. Its a natural progression that in a lots of cases can be minmaxed to the point entire game is trivial = CP2077, Horizon, Witcher.

Thing is, later quests aren't harder, and even if, only slightly.

Dishonored with more amulets and more skills = ZERO difficulty, this game became so damn trivial.

Horizon difficulty was pretty linear.

If you want to compare it to wow its like first raid bosses vs last bosses. Difficulty setting in menu = lfr, mythic, heroic. With a difference that in games playing on easy doesn't give you worse gear than on hard.

AAAAAAAAAAND lets not compare initial quests aka tutorials and introductions, to mid game vs end game.

Again it can’t work. The game you pointed as example are not gear based games by design.

WoW is. Gear > all. The whole game entirely relies on trying endlessly to get better gear than you actually have, in order to keep you subbed. And if you trivialize gear too much, the castle collapses.

Everything is accurately gated and tuned in order for the average joe to progress the steadiest but the slowest possible trying to find a balance between satisfaction and frustration.

[AcidicSyn]

He wasn't talking about the casual audience. I am now casual but I barely play with bad players. I filter them out as much as possible. You don't have to be a min maxer to be good. It isn't a prerequisite. But there a lot less bad players demanding to have gear given to them then he thinks and they are welcome to leave. ~snip~

Careful there, quite a few people in this thread think casual and bad are synonyms. You might scare them with this kind of talk.

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I still don't understand which part of "harder content should award better gear" is elitist. It is literally like that in any other game, and I'm not just talking about video games.

"I don't have time to play D&D all the time, so I think it's pretty elitist if other people, who kill level 20+ dragons, get better loot than I get from killing my level 1 wolf, or from RPing in town. The game needs to be changed and we need to fire our GM because I'm not playing the game like he wants me to."


And no, I'm someone who's doing the hardest content and has the best gear. I'm fine with the fact that other players are doing mythic raids are getting better gear than me. I would never in a 100 years think that I should get the same gear for doing easier content, it's just wrong.

To be fair, if you said that in a D&D group most DMs would just look at you, glance down at their sheet and say: "And then a dragon appeared, roll for initiative".

Never fuck with the DM.

[jazen]

As blizz has moved towards esport, the game has become more focused on pleasing a smaller and smaller subset of players. The vast majority of players aren't doing Mythic raids. The vast majority of players aren't R1/2500+ rated. The vast majority of players aren't doing M+ 15 or higher keys. Yet the vast majority of players are denied a steady progression past ilvl 200'ish for any number of reasons (anti-social/time constraints/skill lvl to name a few). If blizz wants higher sub numbers with more play time, they really need to figure it out, because the more casual players are the ones paying the subscriptions, buying the tokens for boosts, etc and the fewer there are the less money Blizz makes.

[Saltysquidoon]

Progressing thru the game doesn't mean having harder quests = better rewards. Its a natural progression that in a lots of cases can be minmaxed to the point entire game is trivial = CP2077, Horizon, Witcher.

Thing is, later quests aren't harder, and even if, only slightly.

Dishonored with more amulets and more skills = ZERO difficulty, this game became so damn trivial.

I mean I would hope it's pretty non-controversial to say that those games are designed to have a difficulty curve that increases over time and resultantly the first boss or mission would be designed to be easier than the last boss or mission. Being able to break that curve through a combination of min-maxing and mechanical skill doesn't suggest the curve doesn't exist merely that through a combination of skill, experience and/or grinding you have invalidated it. It's just more obvious because balance doesn't factor into a single-player game nearly as much as it does in an online game.

It's an irrelevant argument in any case because there are plenty of single-player games that tie special rewards to hardmode be they 'gear' like op infinite ammo weapons, costumes, endings or achievements.

Stepping into the even more relevant online sphere, shit like destiny and diablo (or more correctly PoE these days) absolutely ties reward to difficulty.

[kaminaris]

That's where we differ... I don't see LFR, mythic or heroic as difficulty settings like in a main menu... because it's just the normal progression. Everyone starts at HC dungeons to get ilvl to get mythic dungeons to increase ilvl. It's not like when you create a character you pick mythic difficulty and suddenly you get more rewards by doing the same content. I'ts literally like any other game where you unlock abilities or get better gear by progressing through the game with more difficult content as you go by.
I think a lot of people are disagreeing with you because of that distinction. Most people, I imagine, argue from a progression pov that exists in all games while you argue from a difficulty menu pov.

At least I understand what you mean now though

Its not normal progression, barely anyone progresses thru lfr -> normal -> heroic -> mythic.
its like saying you can skip half the game because its possible in WoW. You can't.

Mythic guilds do 2-3 weeks of heroic and proceed to mythic only. Heroic guilds don't do LFR either.

Not to mention nobody wants that. The only thing that stops people from straight up going to their target difficulty is artificial gear inflation.

Just because you slap more numbers and add one more mechanic doesn't suddenly make it completely different thing.

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It's an irrelevant argument in any case because there are plenty of single-player games that tie special rewards to hardmode be they 'gear' like op infinite ammo weapons, costumes, endings or achievements.

No, just no. There aren't plenty games like that. Even old school mmos had tradeable gear that completely invalidated that opinion. Achievements and costumes are ok, these are not giving you advantage in game itself.

[chiddie]

As blizz has moved towards esport, the game has become more focused on pleasing a smaller and smaller subset of players. The vast majority of players aren't doing Mythic raids. The vast majority of players aren't R1/2500+ rated. The vast majority of players aren't doing M+ 15 or higher keys. Yet the vast majority of players are denied a steady progression past ilvl 200'ish for any number of reasons (anti-social/time constraints/skill lvl to name a few). If blizz wants higher sub numbers with more play time, they really need to figure it out, because the more casual players are the ones paying the subscriptions, buying the tokens for boosts, etc and the fewer there are the less money Blizz makes.

Progression is not denied, it’s there. But (some) people want to progress in a different way (we still don’t know which way).

[AcidicSyn]

I've never tried Dark Souls, don't think I ever will. WoW used to have something for everyone. I still felt like I had a place in the game. I could earn decent gear through random BGs, slowly earning the mid level conquest gear available to me. Top level raiders and the highest level gladiators always got slightly better gear, but mine was never too bad, and it wasn't as drastic of a difference as it is now.

WoW was advertised from the very beginning that it was friendly to solo and group players. Even as early as late Vanilla I could progress decently on my own, and there was always a rich and vast world to explore in the meantime. Why did that have to change now?

It wasn't an easy decision to leave the game, because I have loved Azeroth since I was 15 years old. It's been an inspiration and has gotten me through tough times. I own a bookshelf with two sections of it being filled with nothing but Warcraft related books. But it is clear that players like me are not welcome in the game anymore. The devs don't want me, the community doesn't want me. No place for someone who just wants to enjoy the world, and not meta-analyze it and rush it to death.

You know, I just thought of something, and I'm not sure why I haven't suggested it before.

Have you tried just rerolling on a server with a friendlier community? One that is specifically not bent on progression? Granted I am not sure any like this exist so you'd have to research a bit, but it might be worth a shot. As I've said before I do sympathize with you on most points, especially the bit about wanting to play WARCRAFT because its Warcraft, not <insert other mmo or SP game here>, which many seem to not understand. I tried ESO when it came out, loved the game, but it's not on Azeroth and I frankly could not give fewer fucks about the characters there. I get that part at the very least 100%.

I've heard some people say rolling on an RP server and finding a guild there really made the game infinitely more enjoyable for them. To be honest that is probably what I am going to do when I finally resub this fall.

[chiddie]

You know, I just thought of something, and I'm not sure why I haven't suggested it before.

Have you tried just rerolling on a server with a friendlier community? One that is specifically not bent on progression? Granted I am not sure any like this exist so you'd have to research a bit, but it might be worth a shot. As I've said before I do sympathize with you on most points, especially the bit about wanting to play WARCRAFT because its Warcraft, not <insert other mmo or SP game here>, which many seem to not understand. I tried ESO when it came out, loved the game, but it's not on Azeroth and I frankly could not give fewer fucks about the characters there. I get that part at the very least 100%.

I've heard some people say rolling on an RP server and finding a guild there really made the game infinitely more enjoyable for them. To be honest that is probably what I am going to do when I finally resub this fall.

I highly doubt that RP = free carry through difficult content but for him it surely may deserve a try, people will be surely nicer behavior side.

[Saltysquidoon]

No, just no. There aren't plenty games like that. Even old school mmos had tradeable gear that completely invalidated that opinion. Achievements and costumes are ok, these are not giving you advantage in game itself.

What are you talking about? I literally posted destiny and diablo, those are emblematic of entire genres of games that do this.

What about single-player games? Dark souls 3 only has special souls and gear you can get in NG+, Terraria has hard mode only weapons, Dying light opens up a new tier of weapons. In the FF7 remake, there are bosses you can only fight on hard and if you beat them you get special gear.

These are just random modern games that come up when you google stuff like 'hard mode rewards'. That's without getting into old console stuff that intentionally hid secret gear and ending behind hard mode to extend playtime.

[Relapses]

As blizz has moved towards esport, the game has become more focused on pleasing a smaller and smaller subset of players. The vast majority of players aren't doing Mythic raids. The vast majority of players aren't R1/2500+ rated. The vast majority of players aren't doing M+ 15 or higher keys. Yet the vast majority of players are denied a steady progression past ilvl 200'ish for any number of reasons (anti-social/time constraints/skill lvl to name a few). If blizz wants higher sub numbers with more play time, they really need to figure it out, because the more casual players are the ones paying the subscriptions, buying the tokens for boosts, etc and the fewer there are the less money Blizz makes.

In other words, "why doesn't my $15/mo subscription come with free BiS gear?"

[AcidicSyn]

I highly doubt that RP = free carry through difficult content but for him it surely may deserve a try, people will be surely nicer behavior side.

Oh I definitely, definitely did not mean to imply that an RP server = free carry through difficult content. That would just be a ridiculous assumption to make.

What I said, was "friendlier community". That doesn't mean free carry lol.

To elaborate; in the case of my own anecdotal evidence in my friends: They referenced being able to find groups of more laid back and patient people more easily on an RP server. When I asked them to clarify, they cited joining groups that would not just rage quit after one mistake; which I assume might mean those players were willing to explain mechanics to fresh players, rather than expecting them to know everything in their first m0 run.

The last bit is, of course and as stated; my own assumption, but it's worth a shot, especially for someone with nothing to really lose in the trying I think. Particularly because of the last thing you said regarding behavior, which seems to be a sticking point for Tadkins.

[chiddie]

Oh I definitely, definitely did not mean to imply that an RP server = free carry through difficult content. That would just be a ridiculous assumption to make.

What I said, was "friendlier community". That doesn't mean free carry lol.

To elaborate; in the case of my own anecdotal evidence in my friends: They referenced being able to find groups of more laid back and patient people more easily on an RP server. When I asked them to clarify, they cited joining groups that would not just rage quit after one mistake; which I assume might mean those players were willing to explain mechanics to fresh players, rather than expecting them to know everything in their first m0 run.

The last bit is, of course and as stated; my own assumption, but it's worth a shot, especially for someone with nothing to really lose in the trying I think. Particularly because of the last thing you said regarding behavior, which seems to be a sticking point for Tadkins.

Yes, that depends also in the content he’s interested in. If I got well he basically does random PvP but I don’t know if because he only likes that or because of bad experiences in dungeons and thus playing alone he’s left with random PvP only. If it’s the second, RP can surely be worthy of a try.

Btw people does not expect everyone to MDI in M0,
I still see people in M0 dying because they don’t know what to do (that’s nice it means that new people are still coming in) and I usually take my time to instruct them (last time was DoS bosses).

[kaminaris]

What are you talking about? I literally posted destiny and diablo, those are emblematic of entire genres of games that do this.

What about single-player games? Dark souls 3 only has special souls and gear you can get in NG+, Terraria has hard mode only weapons, Dying light opens up a new tier of weapons. In the FF7 remake, there are bosses you can only fight on hard and if you beat them you get special gear.

These are just random modern games that come up when you google stuff like 'hard mode rewards'. That's without getting into old console stuff that intentionally hid secret gear and ending behind hard mode to extend playtime.

Two games, as opposed to thousands of those that doesn't. And by the way path of exile is not like this. You can get best gear without killing a single boss with absolute best way is to craft stuff, make tons of money and buy best gear. Then you can use that gear to kill those bosses on absolute trivial difficulty. In PoE knowledge is ultimate power, not mechanical skills.

Terraria Hard mode isn't difficulty setting. Terraria has classic/expert/master mode and that is difficulty slider. Yes this mode has exclusive gear, not necessarily best as zenith is still available on easiest.

[neescher]

You failed at the very first step, time you play doesn't make you casual or hardcore. Time is not a factor here.

"Not enough time" was literally YOUR argument, not mine.

[Echocho]

Oh I definitely, definitely did not mean to imply that an RP server = free carry through difficult content. That would just be a ridiculous assumption to make.

What I said, was "friendlier community". That doesn't mean free carry lol.

To elaborate; in the case of my own anecdotal evidence in my friends: They referenced being able to find groups of more laid back and patient people more easily on an RP server. When I asked them to clarify, they cited joining groups that would not just rage quit after one mistake; which I assume might mean those players were willing to explain mechanics to fresh players, rather than expecting them to know everything in their first m0 run.

The last bit is, of course and as stated; my own assumption, but it's worth a shot, especially for someone with nothing to really lose in the trying I think. Particularly because of the last thing you said regarding behavior, which seems to be a sticking point for Tadkins.

RP servers are definitely a lot better, actually closer to the FFXIV community in terms of friendliness and decency. The problem is that they're not completely isolated so you're still exposed to the toxicity from former PvP servers due to most things being cross realm.
Mythic raids are the only piece of content that's server specific if I remember correctly.

[chiddie]

"Not enough time" was literally YOUR argument, not mine.

Dude just let him go.

Whatever you say to counteract he will just turn table and point it against you pretending he’s right.

He said no games in the world work like this, you find games = they don’t count.

Just wish him good luck in finding M+ carries and gg.

“My patience is wearing thin”.

[AcidicSyn]

Yes, that depends also in the content he’s interested in. If I got well he basically does random PvP but I don’t know if because he only likes that or because of bad experiences in dungeons and thus playing alone he’s left with random PvP only. If it’s the second, RP can surely be worthy of a try.

Btw people does not expect everyone to MDI in M0,
I still see people in M0 dying because they don’t know what to do (that’s nice it means that new people are still coming in) and I usually take my time to instruct them (last time was DoS bosses).

Oh for sure, and I forgot about him wanting to do it through random bgs.

As for the second bit: yeah I'm well aware of that. I met those folks in BFA as will no doubt meet them again this fall. I know not everyone is a dick, that would be just as silly as thinking no ones a dick lol. When I encounter those clowns I move right on with my life, Tadkins has trouble with this though by his own admission. So I figured maybe trying to vet out a new server might help him out.

Now, all that said, if he tries to jumping into a +14 he's never done and expect folks to be patient, then....well, that's on him lol.

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RP servers are definitely a lot better, actually closer to the FFXIV community in terms of friendliness and decency. The problem is that they're not completely isolated so you're still exposed to the toxicity from former PvP servers due to most things being cross realm.
Mythic raids are the only piece of content that's server specific if I remember correctly.

Yeah, I think my brain was really focusing on m+ when I thought of that tbh. queued content is....well queued content.

As for raids though, I'm not sure how that works for RP servers, I thought they had their own rules with regard to cross realm to keep them separate from non-RP servers so that basically any organized group content was server specific or at least only grouped with other RP servers?

[chiddie]

Oh for sure, and I forgot about him wanting to do it through random bgs.

As for the second bit: yeah I'm well aware of that. I met those folks in BFA as will no doubt meet them again this fall. I know not everyone is a dick, that would be just as silly as thinking no ones a dick lol. When I encounter those clowns I move right on with my life, Tadkins has trouble with this though by his own admission. So I figured maybe trying to vet out a new server might help him out.

Now, all that said, if he tries to jumping into a +14 he's never done and expect folks to be patient, then....well, that's on him lol.

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Yeah, I think my brain was really focusing on m+ when I thought of that tbh. queued content is....well queued content.

As for raids though, I'm not sure how that works for RP servers, I thought they had their own rules with regard to cross realm to keep them separate from non-RP servers so that basically any organized group content was server specific or at least only grouped with other RP servers?

Yes, I know it can be difficult but bad people (behavior side) just happen and we should just ignore them and move on.

If someone expects MDI in M0 is entirely him being just stupid. Ignore list and gg. Of course the more you move towards brackets the more you expect to find people knowing what they’re doing but even if you come across clueless people (and, sigh, it happens even in 14-15), there’s little reason to insult them, again ignore list and gg.

Insulting won’t save your run anyways