Why skilled player got so mad about casual getting better loot?

[TheRevenantHero]

What are you talking about? I literally posted destiny and diablo, those are emblematic of entire genres of games that do this.

What about single-player games? Dark souls 3 only has special souls and gear you can get in NG+, Terraria has hard mode only weapons, Dying light opens up a new tier of weapons. In the FF7 remake, there are bosses you can only fight on hard and if you beat them you get special gear.

These are just random modern games that come up when you google stuff like 'hard mode rewards'. That's without getting into old console stuff that intentionally hid secret gear and ending behind hard mode to extend playtime.

Destiny has multiple avenues of getting gear that doesn't require you to EVER raid. So using Destiny as an example literally invalidates your ENTIRE agreement. WoW is now the ONLY game that forces you into a linear path if you want gear. It's been starting to get better with more avenues of acquiring gear but it's still not great. And elitist gatekeepers insist on pushing for mythic to be ONLY way to gear up. It's why people are leaving in droves for games like FF14 where you have numerous options.

[AcidicSyn]

Yes, I know it can be difficult but bad people (behavior side) just happen and we should just ignore them and move on.

If someone expects MDI in M0 is entirely him being just stupid. Ignore list and gg. Of course the more you move towards brackets the more you expect to find people knowing what they’re doing but even if you come across clueless people (and, sigh, it happens even in 14-15), there’s little reason to insult them, again ignore list and gg.

Insulting won’t save your run anyways

I feel like "ignore list and gg" is a solution to just about every gripe in this thread lol

[TheRevenantHero]

I fully agree with your first paragraph, it's in the second paragraph where it falls apart in Shadowlands and the reason, IMO, for this thread.

The pursuit of gear is THE driving force in WoW. Sure, cosmetics are forever but in an RPG becoming more powerful is the main draw for most people. But, in Shadowlands the average Joe (who doesn't raid or m+) is finished pursuing gear at the end of the covenant campaign when he gets access to 197 upgraded covenant gear. There's still cosmetics to grind for if that appeals to Joe, but the gearing process, for him, is OVER. And, as you say, the castle collapses and he finds something else to do with his time other than WoW which, at that point, has become unrewarding. This is 9-10 weeks after launch, months ago now.

Now, if the content left for Joe (WQs, covenant activities, Heroic dungeons) were actually still fun intrinsically for him he might continue playing ... but I would opine that the activities available in WoW, particularly for Joe, are just not that fun really.

edit: by way of example ... in MoP there was working on the Legendary Cloak and Valor Points acquired from Heroic dungeons to buy raid gear with to keep Joe occupied for a much longer time when it came to gear.

The gatekeepers don't care about that. They would rather see the average Joe leave the game than ever give them an opportunity to get better gear. As is evident in this thread.

[jazen]

In other words, "why doesn't my $15/mo subscription come with free BiS gear?"

Nice try, but that's not what I said. My post really had little to do with the gear question, and more to the long term health of player population. If there's no path forward for those that don't do harder content, they'll stop playing and that cherished difficult content will be created at slower pace due to decreased revenue. Even you should be able to understand this.

[Redroniksre]

Destiny has multiple avenues of getting gear that doesn't require you to EVER raid. So using Destiny as an example literally invalidates your ENTIRE agreement. WoW is now the ONLY game that forces you into a linear path if you want gear. It's been starting to get better with more avenues of acquiring gear but it's still not great. And elitist gatekeepers insist on pushing for mythic to be ONLY way to gear up. It's why people are leaving in droves for games like FF14 where you have numerous options.

FF14 is still pretty linear, however it is far better than WoW in that regard. The gap between someone doing the best content in FF14 and someone only doing queue content is far smaller than someone doing Mythic vs. LFR in WoW. So you really don't feel too much at a disadvantage in FF14, while in WoW you feel practically a whole patch behind.

[TheRevenantHero]

FF14 is still pretty linear, however it is far better than WoW in that regard. The gap between someone doing the best content in FF14 and someone only doing queue content is far smaller than someone doing Mythic vs. LFR in WoW. So you really don't feel too much at a disadvantage in FF14, while in WoW you feel practically a whole patch behind.

Exactly. It can be a bit linear but the higher difficulty content is mostly done for exclusive mounts and transmog. Something offered in WoW too but people in this thread are saying "Nobody will ever do mythic if it's just exclusive mounts in transmog" despite FF14 completely proving that to be wrong. The difference is that the GMs in FF14 don't let people be toxic and elitist. The "community"(which I really wouldn't even call it a community now) of WoW is all about people being elitists and the GMs just don't care.

[Grax]

In other words, "why does my $15/mo subscription come with a game design that intentionally fragments the playerbase into haves and have-nots? Why can't there just be a single difficulty tier that everyone can participate in and get interesting loot while at the same time reestablishing a stronger sense of community?"

Fixed that for you.

[Relapses]

Nice try, but that's not what I said. My post really had little to do with the gear question, and more to the long term health of player population. If there's no path forward for those that don't do harder content, they'll stop playing and that cherished difficult content will be created at slower pace due to decreased revenue. Even you should be able to understand this.

In other words, "why doesn't my $15/mo subscription come with free BiS gear?"

For the record, there is zero correlation between players quitting the game and not getting gear. This is just an imaginary concern usually fielded by players who feel like their subscription should allow them a path to the best gear possible.

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Fixed that for you.

If your goal was to describe the word 'entitlement' almost verbatim, yes. You fixed it perfectly.

[TheRevenantHero]

In other words, "why doesn't my $15/mo subscription come with free BiS gear?"

For the record, there is zero correlation between players quitting the game and not getting gear. This is just an imaginary concern usually fielded by players who feel like their subscription should allow them a path to the best gear possible.

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If your goal was to describe the word 'entitlement' almost verbatim, yes. You fixed it perfectly.

I don't think you really know what the word entitlement means. If players are PAYING to play the game and are just completely locked out of increasing their power in the game unless they treat the game like a job, they're not going to stick around. Fracturing the community more and more is doing nothing but pushing players out.

[Redroniksre]

Exactly. It can be a bit linear but the higher difficulty content is mostly done for exclusive mounts and transmog. Something offered in WoW too but people in this thread are saying "Nobody will ever do mythic if it's just exclusive mounts in transmog" despite FF14 completely proving that to be wrong. The difference is that the GMs in FF14 don't let people be toxic and elitist. The "community"(which I really wouldn't even call it a community now) of WoW is all about people being elitists and the GMs just don't care.

I mean I agree, I've had mostly only good experiences in FF14 when it comes to group content. I also like that they let you queue for content (Raids) even if they may be difficult. As soon as you mention adding queues for things like Normal or Heroic in WoW people throw a fit. Sometimes the community as a whole learns when put to the grindstone.

[Relapses]

I don't think you really know what the word entitlement means. If players are PAYING to play the game and are just completely locked out of increasing their power in the game unless they treat the game like a job, they're not going to stick around. Fracturing the community more and more is doing nothing but pushing players out.

You don't need to play this game like a job to get better gear. You do, however, need to not be really fucking bad at it.

[TheRevenantHero]

I mean I agree, I've had mostly only good experiences in FF14 when it comes to group content. I also like that they let you queue for content (Raids) even if they may be difficult. As soon as you mention adding queues for things like Normal or Heroic in WoW people throw a fit. Sometimes the community as a whole learns when put to the grindstone.

Because if more people have access to it then the content becomes trash in the eyes of most WoW players. Just look at all the people saying accessability is a bad thing in his thread. Furthermore, because anyone can queue for it, the community is WAY MORE helpful in FF14. Like...holy shit. It's almost like even the players want other people to have fun in the game. Which is a foreign concept in WoW.

[Relapses]

Because if more people have access to it then the content becomes trash in the eyes of most WoW players. Just look at all the people saying accessability is a bad thing in his thread. Furthermore, because anyone can queue for it, the community is WAY MORE helpful in FF14. Like...holy shit. It's almost like even the players want other people to have fun in the game. Which is a foreign concept in WoW.

Accessibility is just a fancier way of saying "free loot." That isn't what this game needs.

[TheRevenantHero]

You don't need to play this game like a job to get better gear. You do, however, need to not be really fucking bad at it.

No you absolutely do have to basically play the game like it's a job for better gear. You'll never ever see mythic unless you practically no-life the game. Hell, most people won't even see Heroic difficulty because of how elitist the players in WoW are. Why is it such a foreign concept to say anything bad about WoW?

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Accessibility is just a fancier way of saying "free loot." That isn't what this game needs.

If you truly TRULY think that, then you are part of the problem and why Blizzard is losing players in droves to other games. Accessibility isn't "free loot" because they still have to do the content. People still even fail and leave in LFR so that disproves your comment right there. Why do you feel the need to push for certain parts of content to be some kind of exclusive club? It's not health for the game AT ALL.

[Relapses]

No you absolutely do have to basically play the game like it's a job for better gear. You'll never ever see mythic unless you practically no-life the game. Hell, most people won't even see Heroic difficulty because of how elitist the players in WoW are. Why is it such a foreign concept to say anything bad about WoW?

Because that's a patently false strawman fielded by garbage players who would rather blame the game for their lack of sweet purpz than be introspective and realize that they're simply dogshit players.

[Tadkins]

That's easy: Because it's not fun. I'm at around 225 ilvl, and I'm not going back and doing heroic dungeons or normal raids, just because I can flex. It's boring.

Just because there's nothing stopping me from doing that, doesn't mean everyone with the gear will do it. Nothing's stopping the 200 ilvl player from going into a heroic raid (might be hard to find a pug, so either create own group or join a guild) or doing pvp.

That is noble of you, but as I said, why wouldn't a 226 who wants to enjoy a bit of power fantasy queue up for a random BG and go slaughter folks, knowing they're going to have an easy time of it?

There are lots of things stopping folks like me from going higher. Confidence issues, anxiety, a lack of friends, and just plain being an unappealing character. Be honest, what would be my chances of getting into content as a 190 arcane mage that isn't the meta covenant, who doesn't stand out with any logs or raiderio whatsoever?

That's a big of an exaggeration...

It really isn't though. Heck, I would probably do it. I'm an achievement hunter and I would know that being a 226 god is the prime moment to go into a random BG and try to claim some of the achievements in there, knowing I could take on multiple poorly geared folks to get to certain achievement objectives. I'm not a noble person who wouldn't abuse my power, and I'm certain I'm not the only one, even if they wouldn't admit it to themselves.

That's the whole idea of "do harder content for better rewards". No one is stopping you from doing pvp - if you do it enough you'll get better gear and it will get easier over time. No one is stopping you from joining raids or m+ dungeons. You're not really suggesting you *need* the high ilvl gear that mythic raiders have in order to do the casual content? My ilvl 200 holy priest will do world quests and Torghast solo just fine. As you said, you can "go earn fluff" if you want, but the player who is doing the hardest content will - as a reward- be able to do it faster. I don't understand why this is a bad thing. I'm happy the game is in a state where people who don't raid can still doing a lot of content.

I could press the random BG queue button, most definitely. What would be the point if I have no hope of fighting back as a 190 player though? Why would I pay 15 a month just to get beaten repeatedly? Only way I would do that is if the ones giving the beatings were all female characters in black leather transmogs. But no, chances are it's some human paladin jerk in good gear thinking he accomplished something by beating up a low geared character and spamming /spit.

[TheRevenantHero]

Because that's a patently false strawman fielded by garbage players who would rather blame the game for their lack of sweet purpz than be introspective and realize that they're simply dogshit players.

It's not a strawman argument. You clearly don't know what that means. And saying all players that aren't mythic raiders are "dogshit players" is nothing but you being an elitist. Attitudes like yours are literally killing game. People like you would rather the game crash and burn than make it more accessible. Because if more people can increase their power, how are you going to lord over them right? Your mentality is exceptionally toxic.

[Tadkins]

That was in late BfA where you facerolled content, find gear even under rocks and so on. How big was the difference between random bg gear and rated gear in BfA S1 (again asking, no idea)?

Also, in SL, the key for upgrading gear is more the weekly vault than the content itself. Drops in M+ are rare and to upgrade them up beyond a certain point you need to do more difficult content. It’s not that people that are doing difficult content gear way faster, as I said I was around 200 mid January and after 3 months (months, not weeks) I’m still 219 (with zero bis apart from the leggo).

You continue thinking that the majority of ppl is near gear cap but truth is far from that.

Bring back the BfA gearing system.

Even if folks weren't the majority, folks who do get to do that higher level content are only going to get stronger, meanwhile I'm only going to stagnate. The people I might struggle to beat today are going to utterly annihilate me tomorrow, with no hope of ever getting stronger myself.

As the dude before me said, they wouldn’t because it’s not fun.

Yes, sometimes you’ll just enjoy a chill facerolling random bg, but it’s not the standard. You won’t often join a random bg only to find that your teammates and enemy players are all 20-25 ilvl above you.

Same goes for dungeons. Unless you are farming a specific bis and you are willing to then spend thousands of valor points to upgrade it from level 1 to level 12, you won’t run +2 if you are a 225 dude. It’s simply not fun, it’s like doing a normal dungeon. I always run the two weekly dungeon quests at normal level because they are fast, I mean, they are embarrassing. I can basically only spam Riptide and then pew pew, I’m dpsing 90% of time as healer and if I’m not grouped with other 220 dps/tank dudes I will do more dps than anyone even being a healer. Zero fun, really, it’s like punching a sponge.

/flex ppl will be always a thing but they are not the majority in the slightest.

And I have no choice in whether or not I fight those guys. The fact that it can happen is a problem. Why can't there be ilvl brackets or templates or something?

[Relapses]

It's not a strawman argument. You clearly don't know what that means. And saying all players that aren't mythic raiders are "dogshit players" is nothing but you being an elitist. Attitudes like yours are literally killing game. People like you would rather the game crash and burn than make it more accessible. Because if more people can increase their power, how are you going to lord over them right? Your mentality is exceptionally toxic.

Nah, the more dogshit players that quit the game because they can't play Daddy Blizzard's lottery and win free BiS gear the better the game will be in the long run. These players likely represent an incredibly small portion of the game's playerbase anyway, they just happen to post on forums because, well, they gotta bitch somewhere right? A progression path in a video game should lead you to improve your skill to provide you with better rewards. That's exactly what the game is doing now. If you're hardstuck at ilvl 200 and you refuse to step into raiding or M+ to improve your gear, that's not the game's fault.

[kaminaris]

Dude just let him go.

Whatever you say to counteract he will just turn table and point it against you pretending he’s right.

He said no games in the world work like this, you find games = they don’t count.

Just wish him good luck in finding M+ carries and gg.

“My patience is wearing thin”.

Dude, maybe start using some real argument instead of putting your words in my mouth huh? Reading comprehension isn't your best either:

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post53145809

Im sure there are some but I just can't remember one.

So how about stop lying what I said?



Its super simple, if you really think that by having normal gear ~205 ilvl is impossible to get into heroic groups then you are a part of a problem, because waiting literally hours to get accepted is not engaging nor fun nor should be normal.