Another "I can't breath" death: Police Reform & Protests in the USA

[Felya]

My core issue is that there was no escalating use of force. It was just immediately lethal force and a girl was dying within 11 seconds of the cop exiting his vehicle. The first instinct for an officer shouldn't be to unholster their sidearm in the first place, not unless they're responding to a "shots fired" type call with an active shooter. Here, the call was apparently just for a "disturbance", so I don't see that grounds existing.

If he'd discharged his taser when she was on the ground, she got up and THEN rushed the girl, I'd feel differently.

I think the question missing here, is why the cop reacted this way. I don’t believe it’s racism or intent of the cop to kill... I think what you are describing is the very issue highlighted by defund the police. Not the fact that this cop fucked up, but the fact that this cops fuck up is the result of our system. The result of training that leads to an immediate reaction of lethal force.

I just don’t think it’s a good idea from a systematic problem perspective, to argue that this was a mistake by a single cop.

[Al Gorefiend]

If it sounded honest, you wouldn’t have the opinion you do... that’s how disagreement works.

But, what do cops say, when they defend shooting? That the public is armed and they are afraid? Seems like the second amendment is a pretty honest answer... unless you claim cops are lying...

Yes, it is intimidation... why would a cop react to a domestic dispute, while carrying a gun? Why would a cop being called for any none violent offense, come with a gun? Because they intend to shoot or because you better not do something stupid, or they will shoot? For guns to not serve as intimidation, the vast majority of crime... you have to claim that getting shot for any crime where a cop has a gun, is part of the job.



No, just tribalism... I agree with you that the cop who shot the knife wielded, was in the right. Your idea that my reply was about sides, just exposes how feckless your reply was...



Never said otherwise... you assumed, because I disagreed on a different point... you assumed I was part of some crowd, likely due to conditioning...

I assume nothing of you just that I disagree with guns being intimidation tactics moreso than a public safety reason.

You can sprinkle some more insults in there as well if you'd like, not quite grasping who the holier-than-thou among us is yet.

[Machismo]

I know people want to blame the police for this one, but any sane person can see how there was a genuine attempt to prevent great bodily harm.

Now, exactly how this all started, who called 911, and all the other details... that still remains to be seen. It's entirely possible that the officer acted appropriately, and the person with the knife was also defending herself.

[Edge-]

I assume nothing of you just that I disagree with guns being intimidation tactics moreso than a public safety reason.

They absolutely are, intentional or not. The upper class city with next to zero violent crime, and absolutely no serious violent crime, had no need for their officers to have AR-15's visible in the front seats of their cars, with magazines loaded and at the ready. There is precisely zero public safety reason for that.

[Felya]

I assume nothing of you just that I disagree with guns being intimidation tactics moreso than a public safety reason

How is shooting in public, for public safety? I’d like to remind you, that even police chases in crowded areas are called off for public safety. I think the threat of being shot, is far more relevant to day to day interaction of police, than shooting for public safety.

[PACOX]

The Ma'Khia video is sad. I can think of ways it could have played out differently but I'm not seeing a clear incident of bad cop. Two things that bother me, Ma'Khia is only 16, no taser there no attempt at a taser. What doesn't bother me, that he acted swiftly when he saw a knife going at someone's face/throat. In a lot of incidents, he would be commended. If my family member was being held attacked with a knife and an officer had that window of opportunity, please take that shot.

What I don't like is that he jumped out the car with a gun but I can't really argue against it considering the call of an active altercation involving a weapon. The time between him exiting and shooting is just how things played out, how quickly they escalated.

What he didn't do was announce himself or verbalize anything. I don't like that. It might have saved a life, especially in the heat of the moment. I think it points to how much he has been trained to shoot fast and effectively, which is how you get cases like Wright or the other kid who was killed (apologize for not having his name right now). He definitely shot her like he had military experience.

I think taking him off the streets is appropriate and there being an investigation. I think that's always appropriate though when an officer is involved in a high stress call whether they acted appropriately or not. It's important to follow through and for their mental health. Not rotating police out is how you get high strung officers who start pulling their gun on everything or beating up old ladies.

But this isn't a case of cop vs knife wielder. Where it's just them vs someone without a third party in danger. Where the cop is just afraid to deal with a long call or tussle. It was an incident of active assault with a deadly weapon. What's even sadder is that apparently Ma'Khia was the one who was initially attacked (before the call), and someone that age in that state of mind probably isn't going to lucid enough in the situation to ditch the knife when cops show up. She was still hot and angry in fight mode from (according to what I read but can't find anything to back that up) getting jumped.

[Levelfive]

eschatological linked this a while back--guy fired at six cops, and put *four* bullets in one of them, and was taken in with a black eye: https://www.audacy.com/wben/articles...oting-officers

I think we've become so used to incidents where there's no weapon, or it's in the back, or their hands are already up (not to mention the cop-friendly gaslighting that has controlled these narratives up until relatively recently, or the fact that they kill so many of us every year), that people now think force is warranted over even moderate threats and forget there *are* other ways for dealing with these situations where no one dies at a cop's hands.

[fwc577]

eschatological linked this a while back--guy fired at six cops, and put *four* bullets in one of them, and was taken in with a black eye: https://www.audacy.com/wben/articles...oting-officers

I think we've become so used to incidents where there's no weapon, or it's in the back, or their hands are already up (not to mention the cop-friendly gaslighting that has controlled these narratives up until relatively recently, or the fact that they kill so many of us every year), that people now think force is warranted over even moderate threats and forget there *are* other ways for dealing with these situations where no one dies at a cop's hands.

Comparing this situation to the Bryant situation is utterly ridiculous if you even do a modicum of research into the details of how this guy was apprehended with only a black eye.

[Levelfive]

Comparing this situation to the Bryant situation is utterly ridiculous if you even do a modicum of research into the details of how this guy was apprehended with only a black eye.

"After shooting Ljiljanich and at other officers, the shooter fled again into his car and down Morgan Street. During the police pursuit, shots were again fired towards other officers. The gunman threw his rifle out the window near Kohler Street. It was near there when police rammed into the backside of the car, stopping it.

Police arrested the gunman after the car stopped."

I think the technical term is--and I'm not sure if I'm pronouncing it correctly--whiteness?

[tehdang]

I have to agree. I don't like that a teenager is dead, but I can not fault the officer in this situation. We can armchair quarterback about de-escalation techniques, tasers, or pepper spray, but that training issue runs deeper than this singular situation. I don't believe the officer showed malice or ineptitude here.

Now the reports of his fellows officers taunting crowds with "Blue Lives Matter", that it much more troubling for me here, as that shows direct and intentional disrespect and disregard.

That's why it's useful to have the conversation about a singular situation and contrast it with more nuanced situations and also more obviously bad situations. Like, I want to be damn sure people with me on police reform can actual conceive of and confront situations where the cop has little choice about what to do.

I want better training and decision making for cops. I don't think a future uber-mensch police force rolls up like the video (and please watch the video) and has a solution that protects the almost-victim of a stabbing attack, and preserves the life of the stabber.

[downnola]

How is shooting in public, for public safety? I’d like to remind you, that even police chases in crowded areas are called off for public safety. I think the threat of being shot, is far more relevant to day to day interaction of police, than shooting for public safety.

I've seen plenty of takes today where they justify the shooting by saying he was trying to save a life... by squeezing off four 9mm rounds at a target less than 12 inches next to her.

This is America.

[Edge-]

This is America.

No, This is America.

[Al Gorefiend]

That's why it's useful to have the conversation about a singular situation and contrast it with more nuanced situations and also more obviously bad situations. Like, I want to be damn sure people with me on police reform can actual conceive of and confront situations where the cop has little choice about what to do.

I want better training and decision making for cops. I don't think a future uber-mensch police force rolls up like the video (and please watch the video) and has a solution that protects the almost-victim of a stabbing attack, and preserves the life of the stabber.

I agree. Nobody wants a 16 year old girl to get killed regardless of which side of the police debate you stand on, but in this particular instance in which it was her or a dead victim, he did the right thing. Death or permanent disfigurement was within a 30 second window, far more tragic a story someone be stabbed and murdered.

[Orange Joe]

You can just admit you forgot tazers exist rather than embarrassing yourself, you know.

Boot leather must be mighty tasty.

Tazers don't always stop someone.

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Again, are you under the impression that using a sidearm doesn't also have a significant failure rate?

Just curious. What is the failure rate compared to tasers?

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You realize the NRA and other lobby groups have campaigned for decades to prevent exactly that research, to provide exactly this kind of cover, right?

Of course you do. You just rely on the disinformation propaganda to hide your tracks.

Again; do you think officers always hit their target with every bullet? And does a single bullet stop a suspect every time? If you'll admit that's not the case, then you've admitted that handguns have a significant failure rate, too.

Hell, why do cops often shoot more than once? Failure rate. This isn't a difficult concept.

Then what are you basing "significant failure rate" on? You are usually better than this Endus.

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Man, truly there's nothing that can be done other than resort to deadly violence. Truly.

I mean don't get me wrong. I'm all for more non lethal options. but lets not compare apples to oranges. In both of those videos not 1 innocent cilivian was in direct dangers from either of those people. Got any videos where police disarm someone already starting to go for the stab on someone?

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So, moving goalposts, then.

This started with how long he had to assess the situation. Now you want to limit it to a smaller segment of that, because you were wrong about the original claim and can't defend it.

At what point did she start to show intent on stabbing someone. How was he to assess that before she moved?

[Machismo]

Tazers don't always stop someone.

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Just curious. What is the failure rate compared to tasers?

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Then what are you basing "significant failure rate" on? You are usually better than this Endus.

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I mean don't get me wrong. I'm all for more non lethal options. but lets not compare apples to oranges. In both of those videos not 1 innocent cilivian was in direct dangers from either of those people. Got any videos where police disarm someone already starting to go for the stab on someone?

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At what point did she start to show intent on stabbing someone. How was he to assess that before she moved?

I think the failure rate is mainly from officers missing, and hitting other targets.

[Orange Joe]

I think the failure rate is mainly from officers missing, and hitting other targets.

I don't disagree. I guess what I'm asking is what has a larger fail rate. The taser or the gun.

[Rozz]

Considering how the discussion is getting out of hand, see OP warning two. Refrain from continuing to suggest anyone deserves or earned lethal force.

[Machismo]

I don't disagree. I guess what I'm asking is what has a larger fail rate. The taser or the gun.

I honestly don't know, and the failures are very different.

[The Oblivion]

Considering how the discussion is getting out of hand, see OP warning two. Refrain from continuing to suggest anyone deserves or earned lethal force.

you sure are trying hard to force your own politics on this thread arent you? lmfao

[Orange Joe]

you sure are trying hard to force your own politics on this thread arent you? lmfao

TIL site rules = his politics.


Seriously. @Rozz is one of the most unbiased mods we have had in offtopic.