{TV} The Falcon and the Winter Soldier

[Endus]

Or why Sam rolled his eyes when Bucky lashed out saying "If Steve was wrong about you, then that means he was wrong about me" (great scene though), but then sympathizes with a terrorist who's literally murdering people now?

The scene with Sam and Karli is not Sam feeling real sympathy for Karli. He's empathizing in an attempt to talk her down and get through to her, to try and get her to turn herself in or at least change course. It's pretty standard de-escalation stuff. You'll see cops do the same thing in hostage negotiations, for the same reasons. It doesn't mean they're suddenly in agreement with the person they're trying to de-escalate.

And we know Sam has strong training in this kind of thing; they made that clear.

[Jester Joe]

The scene with Sam and Karli is not Sam feeling real sympathy for Karli. He's empathizing in an attempt to talk her down and get through to her, to try and get her to turn herself in or at least change course. It's pretty standard de-escalation stuff. You'll see cops do the same thing in hostage negotiations, for the same reasons. It doesn't mean they're suddenly in agreement with the person they're trying to de-escalate.

And we know Sam has strong training in this kind of thing; they made that clear.

He repeatedly defends her saying that she's just misled, she has a good reason, etc.

It's not about a single scene. It's about his constant behavior towards her. And yet he completely dismissed Bucky's own issues. It doesn't matter his training, it's the fact that it's kinda weird that he kept saying she can be saved, yet dismissed Bucky's internal issues when Bucky was shown repeatedly to not open up properly to anyone and for once he finally said something close to what was bothering him, just to get an eyeroll.

[Darththeo]

He repeatedly defends her saying that she's just misled, she has a good reason, etc.

It's not about a single scene. It's about his constant behavior towards her. And yet he completely dismissed Bucky's own issues. It doesn't matter his training, it's the fact that it's kinda weird that he kept saying she can be saved, yet dismissed Bucky's internal issues when Bucky was shown repeatedly to not open up properly to anyone and for once he finally said something close to what was bothering him, just to get an eyeroll.

She arguably does have a good reason to do what she does. Good is a point of view, an opinion, not a fact.

[Jester Joe]

She arguably does have a good reason to do what she does. Good is a point of view, an opinion, not a fact.

I'm not denying that or really debating it honestly.

I just think it's also pretty applicable to Bucky having a good reason for being so co-dependent on Steven being right about him, and why it would hit him so hard that Sam gave up the shield.

[PrimiOne]

And you are saying to me Thanos wasn't putting any strength on it? even when he was making that face?

i mean, with the power stone, he should not even need to put force to push him away, but still.

To put thing in the proper context Thanos does not know any avenger , he has been told ( by the Chitauri) they are "unruly and therefore can not be ruled" but does not know what anyone can do ( haven't actually met them).



What I see here is a surprise face.. a WTF? this is just a human!! ( please let's not start again) how can he even dare to opose me?

This scene is a direct reference to the comics storyarc and a moment that defines what Steve is.



Everyone has fallen ,way more powerful characters than him but as a metaphor of the human spirit ( that's what Cap is) he just won't give up. Even when he is the last man standing...even against imposible odds...he will face Thanos.

So is this just an empty easter eggs for comics fans? Not at all.

The transversal theme of the whole Avengers series is: the storm is coming an we need to stay together. They fail at doing that ( Sokovia accords and Zemo breaks them in two) so they lose in Infinity War. There's a pivotal moment at the start of the movie, Tony is with Stephen and Bruce at the Sanctum, Bruce is explaining what's coming and Tony realizes this is it, this the vision he's having of his friends dead, this is the final battle.He picks his phone ,look for the Steve contact..put the finger in call...and then Thanos ship lands, they go outside and the call is never made. It's implied this is the moment they lose the war...trying to face Thanos as two separate teams.

Fast forward one movie and we are here...



Oooh fuck Steve...how do you do it? You are again with shit up to the shoulders. You are again the last man standing and.... now? You face not Thanos but his whole army after he has mopped the floor with Thor,Tony and you. You ,again, are not gonna back down, you are gonna adjust the broken shield to your broken arm and face whatever it comes because that's what you do. The history is repeating...you are gonna lose again.

Except because this mirroring between the two sequences in Infinity War and End Game is precisely aimed at creating the perfect emotional state of "Again....against impossible odds , I have lived that".
But this time , as as opposed to Infinity War the founding Avengers has actually stood together so allthough we are in a "everything is lost again" suddenly....Falcon gets on the radio. WTF? I have forgotten we used to gems...a portal opens,T'challa and the dora milaje enter and boom!! the whole threate falls down ( in my case almost literally, I swear people got so excited the seats where trembling like an earthquake).

The way you contruct the story is way...way....way...more important than some kind of coherence ( that comics does not have anyway,it's pointless trying) so I see the scene of Steve facing Thanos in Infinity War as just perfect.

[Egomaniac]

Or why Sam rolled his eyes when Bucky lashed out saying "If Steve was wrong about you, then that means he was wrong about me" (great scene though), but then sympathizes with a terrorist who's literally murdering people now?

Sam was rolling his eyes because Bucky was making the decision to give up the shield about him. Neither one of them were looking at the situation through the other person's perspective. It's kind of a boiler plate for "buddy cop" relationships. Both of them have to be kind of unreasonable at the beginning...and then learn to see things from the other person's point of view.

[Jester Joe]

Sam was rolling his eyes because Bucky was making the decision to give up the shield about him. Neither one of them were looking at the situation through the other person's perspective. It's kind of a boiler plate for "buddy cop" relationships. Both of them have to be kind of unreasonable at the beginning...and then learn to see things from the other person's point of view.

Which doesn't align at all with the idea that Sam is supposed to be great at de-escalating situations, and is in complete contrast to how he treats Karli.

[formerShandalay]

He repeatedly defends her saying that she's just misled, she has a good reason, etc.

It's not about a single scene. It's about his constant behavior towards her. And yet he completely dismissed Bucky's own issues. It doesn't matter his training, it's the fact that it's kinda weird that he kept saying she can be saved, yet dismissed Bucky's internal issues when Bucky was shown repeatedly to not open up properly to anyone and for once he finally said something close to what was bothering him, just to get an eyeroll.

To me personally that made absolute sense, as in... one of the most important things about a therapist is they can not be personally attached to you or your life. Nothing you do or say can make any difference to them personally, they must be able to detach themselves from your words and actions as completely as possible. That's the biggest thing why you can go to your friends for support and help, but never for therapy. That one of the things why therapists need to actually have to have counselling of their own, so they can always analyze and recognize when something their patients do or say touches a nerve in them and they start giving bad counsel or getting angry.

If you take into account that Sam all through Winter Soldier and Civil War didn't really trust Bucky and even told Steve they shouldn't go save him, but rather put him down, I think it's all too logical that he doesn't tell that same person - who very obviously still has huge issues - about his own issue with the shield and what Steve thrust upon him, when he didn't even tell Steve.

[Endus]

Which doesn't align at all with the idea that Sam is supposed to be great at de-escalating situations, and is in complete contrast to how he treats Karli.

Sam is great at de-escalating situations when he WANTS to.

He didn't want to de-escalate things with Bucky. He wanted to pick a fight. Partly because they had issues they'd never worked out between themselves, partly because of grudges he still held, and partly because he wanted to trust Bucky but couldn't unless they really had it out.

It's like how Bucky is a highly trained assassin, but he doesn't use those skills to murder the Dora Milaje when they're trying to kill Walker. It depends on what he actually wants to achieve, and who he's reacting to, and why.

[Jester Joe]

To me personally that made absolute sense, as in... one of the most important things about a therapist is they can not be personally attached to you or your life. Nothing you do or say can make any difference to them personally, they must be able to detach themselves from your words and actions as completely as possible. That's the biggest thing why you can go to your friends for support and help, but never for therapy. That one of the things why therapists need to actually have to have counselling of their own, so they can always analyze and recognize when something their patients do or say touches a nerve in them and they start giving bad counsel or getting angry.

If you take into account that Sam all through Winter Soldier and Civil War didn't really trust Bucky and even told Steve they shouldn't go save him, but rather put him down, I think it's all too logical that he doesn't tell that same person - who very obviously still has huge issues - about his own issue with the shield and what Steve thrust upon him, when he didn't even tell Steve.

Sam is great at de-escalating situations when he WANTS to.

He didn't want to de-escalate things with Bucky. He wanted to pick a fight. Partly because they had issues they'd never worked out between themselves, partly because of grudges he still held, and partly because he wanted to trust Bucky but couldn't unless they really had it out.

It's like how Bucky is a highly trained assassin, but he doesn't use those skills to murder the Dora Milaje when they're trying to kill Walker. It depends on what he actually wants to achieve, and who he's reacting to, and why.

Both of your responses read like you're thinking I'm saying he should have fixed the issue there, which I really don't get because I never said that.

I just think it's really silly and almost immature to just roll your eyes at them after someone genuinely did try to discuss the problem. It could have even been as simple as instead of rolling his eyes, just continue staring.

And even later, Bucky apologizes to Sam about never realizing the gravity of the situation with giving him the shield. But Sam is still pretty just...rough with Bucky about it. You can argue "Well that's what Bucky NEEDS" or something, but at the end of the day Sam still treated Bucky worse than he did Karli.

Especially considering Bucky just helped him repair the boat and everything, could have cut him a bit of slack and at least apologized for not taking Bucky's internal strife seriously.

[Vakir]

Sam has personal baggage in his relationship to Steve and his legacy the same way Bucky does. That's the entire damn point, and why they didn't go the easy buddy-comedy way everyone expected for the series (outside the one therapy scene that felt made for the trailer). It wouldn't make sense for him to just de-escalate and accept Bucky when he has his own issues relative to him. It was personal, the Flag Smashers are not. At least not before Karli trolled his family.

(But, you know, Marvel character dynamics are "more shallow than the New York City dating scene" )

[Egomaniac]

Which doesn't align at all with the idea that Sam is supposed to be great at de-escalating situations, and is in complete contrast to how he treats Karli.

It aligns fine...because with Karli it wasn't personal.

[Jester Joe]

It aligns fine...because with Karli it wasn't personal.

Except when she threatens his family and then you know, he still keeps believing she's able to be saved after.

When she already murdered multiple people. And threatened to murder his family.

But not personal at all at that point.

I'm honestly baffled by the amount of people that seem so keen to defend this eyeroll. Like, no matter what way you cut it, at the end it seems to be the same answer. "Sam did that because he does have issues with Bucky, and he wanted to fight".

So...like I also said, it was immature and petty of him. And probably deserved an apology after Bucky helped him fix his boat.

Mind you, acting out of the norm by being immature and petty is not aligning with his character overall. Yes, it's a human reaction and it technically fits because everyone isn't perfect, but it's still out of place overall, especially considering he tries to talk down everyone else but when it comes to Bucky he genuinely antagonizes him. He can have justification for it, but that doesn't change that it's not Sam's normal character.

[eschatological]

I'm not denying that or really debating it honestly.

I just think it's also pretty applicable to Bucky having a good reason for being so co-dependent on Steven being right about him, and why it would hit him so hard that Sam gave up the shield.

But Bucky's is literally just a personal hang up he has. Him associating the shield with his lost family isn't on Sam, nor is it Sam's duty to take up the shield solely so Bucky doesn't feel alone.

[formerShandalay]

Both of your responses read like you're thinking I'm saying he should have fixed the issue there, which I really don't get because I never said that.

I just think it's really silly and almost immature to just roll your eyes at them after someone genuinely did try to discuss the problem. It could have even been as simple as instead of rolling his eyes, just continue staring.

And even later, Bucky apologizes to Sam about never realizing the gravity of the situation with giving him the shield. But Sam is still pretty just...rough with Bucky about it. You can argue "Well that's what Bucky NEEDS" or something, but at the end of the day Sam still treated Bucky worse than he did Karli.

Especially considering Bucky just helped him repair the boat and everything, could have cut him a bit of slack and at least apologized for not taking Bucky's internal strife seriously.

I sure won't argue it's what Bucky needs, because I thought the scene was abolutely heartbreaking in that Bucky finally opened up and just ended up being treated like shit. And I understand your point and do think Sam might want to apologize still for that, although I guess it's fine now after the scene where he and Bucky actually had a heart to heart in the last episode and it turned out great.
But I also think that very scene emphazised the real problem Sam had in the therapy session scene, which is that he didn't want to tell Steve nor Bucky they should eff off with their shield and first think about what that would mean to him. At least Steve was his friend and never showed Sam anything but respect, so Sam probably didn't feel like he could tell Steve about his reservations concerning the shield being in the hand of a black man and what that would mean for him.
So when Bucky, a man he doesn't trust nearly as much as Steve, but who also never treated him as anything but another soldier with no 'racial issue' between them, brings it up, Sam just loses his usual cool and doesn't explain it. It's human to sometimes lash out, when you have an issue you can't seem to resolve and people keep nagging you about it.
So, I guess what I'm trying to say is, it's a very human thing and very understandable to me when it's Sam doing it, because he is very personally affected by the whole situation.

What I didn't understand was why the freaking therapist did it too. As Bucky told her, it was indeed very unprofessional and could very well have made things worse. If someone in a state that Bucky was in in the first episode tells you they want 'peace', you're supposed to ask them about suicidal thoughts, not lash out about that being horseshit. But ok, she's a movie theapist and maybe not even a therapist, just someone the government put into place for Bucky as a counsellor, so... I'll forgive that scene and just go with it, even though I found it horrible ^^

[Endus]

Except when she threatens his family and then you know, he still keeps believing she's able to be saved after.

When she already murdered multiple people. And threatened to murder his family.

But not personal at all at that point.

I'm honestly baffled by the amount of people that seem so keen to defend this eyeroll. Like, no matter what way you cut it, at the end it seems to be the same answer. "Sam did that because he does have issues with Bucky, and he wanted to fight".

So...like I also said, it was immature and petty of him. And probably deserved an apology after Bucky helped him fix his boat.

Mind you, acting out of the norm by being immature and petty is not aligning with his character overall. Yes, it's a human reaction and it technically fits because everyone isn't perfect, but it's still out of place overall, especially considering he tries to talk down everyone else but when it comes to Bucky he genuinely antagonizes him. He can have justification for it, but that doesn't change that it's not Sam's normal character.

It's almost like the point of the show is that both Sam and Bucky have a metric truckload of baggage they've been avoiding dealing with. Bucky has actually been further down that path than Sam the whole season, because he started out realizing he had issues and was actively trying to work through them. It took Sam until basically the middle of all this to really come to terms with what he was actually dealing with.

The scene on the boat and the training scenes with the Shield are really the first times Sam has started trying to fix his own personal shit and hangups, in this show.

[Egomaniac]

So...like I also said, it was immature and petty of him. And probably deserved an apology after Bucky helped him fix his boat.

Well yes, it was immature and petty. Both of them were. Like I said...standard stuff for the "Buddy Cop" genre. Think Tango & Cash, Lethal Weapon, etc. Two cops forced by circumstance to work together even though they don't actually like each other at all. As the case develops they develop a grudging respect for the other that eventually leads to a true partnership.

As for apologies...they both "deserve" one from the other.

[Berndorf]

Except when she threatens his family and then you know, he still keeps believing she's able to be saved after.

When she already murdered multiple people. And threatened to murder his family.

But not personal at all at that point.

I'm honestly baffled by the amount of people that seem so keen to defend this eyeroll. Like, no matter what way you cut it, at the end it seems to be the same answer. "Sam did that because he does have issues with Bucky, and he wanted to fight".

So...like I also said, it was immature and petty of him. And probably deserved an apology after Bucky helped him fix his boat.

Mind you, acting out of the norm by being immature and petty is not aligning with his character overall. Yes, it's a human reaction and it technically fits because everyone isn't perfect, but it's still out of place overall, especially considering he tries to talk down everyone else but when it comes to Bucky he genuinely antagonizes him. He can have justification for it, but that doesn't change that it's not Sam's normal character.

I get the feeling that a lot of the people defending it are doing so from a writer's perspective, as in defending the writer putting that in there while your criticism isn't really about it being in there so much as just Sam being a jerk by doing it. So it's almost like two difference things are being argued as I read through this.

[Kyphael]

This



This



This



And a Chris Evans cameo.

Yes I said it, and you read it here first, folks!

[formerShandalay]

This

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This



This



And a Chris Evans cameo.

Yes I said it, and you read it here first, folks!

I'll take that, thank you!

Especially if Sam gets to punch John Walker in the face after he steps on the shield ...with a Wakanda-powered jetpack.

Edit: snipped the big images