Why skilled player got so mad about casual getting better loot?

[Tyris Flare]

There are multiple people in my 7/10 mythic group that are 100% raid loggers playing 6 hours a week and ~225 ilvl. Hardly no-lifers. There are plenty of players like this.

Honestly the opposite is really true - the game barely rewards you for playing more at all. If you had done nothing but pug 4 14 Mists every week the entire patch you would essentially have the same gear as most mythic raiders. Unless you are in a HoF guild who clears the raid in a month, mythic raiding is actually a very time inefficient way to gear your character.

[Tadkins]

You know, I just thought of something, and I'm not sure why I haven't suggested it before.

Have you tried just rerolling on a server with a friendlier community? One that is specifically not bent on progression? Granted I am not sure any like this exist so you'd have to research a bit, but it might be worth a shot. As I've said before I do sympathize with you on most points, especially the bit about wanting to play WARCRAFT because its Warcraft, not <insert other mmo or SP game here>, which many seem to not understand. I tried ESO when it came out, loved the game, but it's not on Azeroth and I frankly could not give fewer fucks about the characters there. I get that part at the very least 100%.

I've heard some people say rolling on an RP server and finding a guild there really made the game infinitely more enjoyable for them. To be honest that is probably what I am going to do when I finally resub this fall.

I have, and I can tell you've never played on Moon Guard before, hehe. Community is vicious there. I played there from the end of TBC to around the end of MoP, and let me tell ya. Guilds are quite insular and elitist, and nasty toward each other. I remember whole blogs/tumblrs/etc dedicated solely to trashing on people's in-game character profiles. The community looks good and friendly on the surface but beneath that are claws and teeth ready to tear you apart.

People like to give the server crap because of its...special reputation, but I can tell you from experience that Goldshire is not even close to the worst thing about that server.

[munkeyinorbit]

I don't think you really know what the word entitlement means. If players are PAYING to play the game and are just completely locked out of increasing their power in the game unless they treat the game like a job, they're not going to stick around. Fracturing the community more and more is doing nothing but pushing players out.

No one is completely locked out. The fracturing of the community is a player invented concept. Every person has the same opportunities to get 226 even if they take the welfare route.

[TheRevenantHero]

Nah, the more dogshit players that quit the game because they can't play Daddy Blizzard's lottery and win free BiS gear the better the game will be in the long run. These players likely represent an incredibly small portion of the game's playerbase anyway, they just happen to post on forums because, well, they gotta bitch somewhere right? A progression path in a video game should lead you to improve your skill to provide you with better rewards. That's exactly what the game is doing now. If you're hardstuck at ilvl 200 and you refuse to step into raiding or M+ to improve your gear, that's not the game's fault.

It's hilarious that you're actively proving my point with every post you make. No, they are not an incredibly small portion of the playerbase. It's the opposite. The hardcore players are the ACTUAL minority. The majority of the playerbase are "casuals". So mentalities like yours that continue to push casuals away from increasing character power unless they do a specific activity is what will ultimately kill the game. Notice how Blizzard doesn't share subscription numbers anymore. That's not a sign of a game that is growing and flourishing. That's the sign of a game that is getting closer and closer to the drain. Players have been leaving in droves from Shadowlands. And people like you would rather the game crash and burn than expand accessibility. Because if more players have access, how will you "flex" on them anymore?

- - - Updated - - -

No one is completely locked out. The fracturing of the community is a player invented concept. Every person has the same opportunities to get 226 even if they take the welfare route.

You are UTTERLY wrong. No, every person doesn't have the same opportunity. Especially if they're going the "welfare route". Stop spreading lies.

[Relapses]

It's hilarious that you're actively proving my point with every post you make. No, they are not an incredibly small portion of the playerbase. It's the opposite. The hardcore players are the ACTUAL minority. The majority of the playerbase are "casuals". So mentalities like yours that continue to push casuals away from increasing character power unless they do a specific activity is what will ultimately kill the game. Notice how Blizzard doesn't share subscription numbers anymore. That's not a sign of a game that is growing and flourishing. That's the sign of a game that is getting closer and closer to the drain. Players have been leaving in droves from Shadowlands. And people like you would rather the game crash and burn than expand accessibility. Because if more players have access, how will you "flex" on them anymore?

Yawn. "The game is dying!" says the guy without an actual argument.

You are UTTERLY wrong. No, every person doesn't have the same opportunity. Especially if they're going the "welfare route". Stop spreading lies.

Yeah they do. I have a dogshit 196 SPriest that I +2'd +1'd a 14 on last week. It's not attached to my main's IO. I simply ran the +2 I got from a M0 until I got a +14. Then I timed it. I didn't buy any carries. I didn't beg my friends to help me. And for that, I got a 226 piece in my GV this week. I didn't do anything special. I just... played the video game. Can you tell me what separates my SPriest without an IO score or gear from literally any other casual player in the game?

[TheRevenantHero]

Yawn. "The game is dying!" says the guy without an actual argument.



Yeah they do. I have a dogshit 196 SPriest that I +2'd a 14 on last week. It's not attached to my main's IO. I simply ran the +2 I got from a M0 until I got a +14. Then I timed it. I didn't buy any carries. I didn't beg my friends to help me. And for that, I got a 226 piece in my GV this week. I didn't do anything special. I just... played the video game. Can you tell me what separates my SPriest without an IO score or gear from literally any other casual player in the game?

What separates you is that you're likely lying based on all your other toxic comments. You will clearly go to any lengths to prove that "dogshit players" are the real issue and not elitist gatekeeping attitudes like yours. Just because you're incapable of admitting you're wrong doesn't mean I don't have a point. You're just saying that because it doesn't fit your narrative. The game IS dying. Less and less people are playing the game. There's more and more threads talking about this very topic. Why would someone pay $15 a month for a game that is giving them next to no way to realistically increase their character's power? Why pay monthly for a game that tells you that you MUST do this specific content or never get gear? The fact that you think accessibility is the issue and not toxic mindsets is big part of the problem in modern WoW.

[Relapses]

What separates you is that you're likely lying based on all your other toxic comments. You will clearly go to any lengths to prove that "dogshit players" are the real issue and not elitist gatekeeping attitudes like yours. Just because you're incapable of admitting you're wrong doesn't mean I don't have a point. You're just saying that because it doesn't fit your narrative. The game IS dying. Less and less people are playing the game. There's more and more threads talking about this very topic. Why would someone pay $15 a month for a game that is giving them next to no way to realistically increase their character's power? Why pay monthly for a game that tells you that you MUST do this specific content or never get gear? The fact that you think accessibility is the issue and not toxic mindsets is big part of the problem in modern WoW.

https://raider.io/mythic-plus-runs/s...heater-of-pain

It was a +1, my bad.

edit: And to address your question: I spent about ~3 hours playing my SPriest last week. I don't think that's a bad return on investment for doing something I enjoy. Why does the 3 hours I spent playing the video game mean less than what the supposed "casual majority" of the playerbase does with their free time simply because I enjoy running dungeons?

[ReesePieces]

Yeah they do. I have a dogshit 196 SPriest that I +2'd a 14 on last week. It's not attached to my main's IO. I simply ran the +2 I got from a M0 until I got a +14. Then I timed it. I didn't buy any carries. I didn't beg my friends to help me. And for that, I got a 226 piece in my GV this week. I didn't do anything special. I just... played the video game. Can you tell me what separates my SPriest without an IO score or gear from literally any other casual player in the game?

Trying to make it sound like anyone at ilvl 196 can "simply" go work a +2 key up to a +14 through the regular pugging process is absurd.

At ilvl 196 you were getting carried in a +14.

What was your overall dps for this +2 +14 and which dungeon was it?

[Relapses]

Trying to make it sound like anyone at ilvl 196 can "simply" go work a +2 key up to a +14 through the regular pugging process is absurd.

At ilvl 196 you were getting carried in a +14.

What was your overall dps for this +2 +14 and which dungeon was it?

I corrected myself, it was a +1. I linked it in my last post. I finished at around 4k DPS. Nothing special but you don't need to do much of anything special to time a 14.

[neescher]

PAYING to play the game and are just completely locked out of increasing their power in the game unless they treat the game like a job

This is such bullshit. Please explain exactly how someone is "completely locked out"? Last time I checked, everyone has the same chances when playing the game. It can't be time because of the fact that there are several people who play less than 8 hours per week and still play m+ keys and even mythic raids.

[TheRevenantHero]

This is such bullshit. Please explain exactly how someone is "completely locked out"? Last time I checked, everyone has the same chances when playing the game. It can't be time because of the fact that there are several people who play less than 8 hours per week and still play m+ keys and even mythic raids.

If you think that, you definitely don't play the game. A lot of people will be forced into PUGs for various reasons. Most PUGs expect RIDICULOUS item levels to even go near NORMAL raids. Those people who do m+'s? Yeah they have a guild or a dedicated friend group. The majority of the playerbase doesn't have those things and people in LFG care more about speedrunning something than helping people experience the content.

And before you say "Just make your own group", that's a fallacy. I have tried making my own group as a DPS. Know what happened? I didn't have insanely high item level and got NO applications in two hours. I'm not gonna sit around all fucking day hoping to get people in my raid group.

[Tadkins]

This is such bullshit. Please explain exactly how someone is "completely locked out"? Last time I checked, everyone has the same chances when playing the game. It can't be time because of the fact that there are several people who play less than 8 hours per week and still play m+ keys and even mythic raids.

When you lack connections (don't have friends, don't have a guild), aren't the best player to stand out, and are unable to keep up with all of this stuff...

-Download a mess of addons and learn how to work each individual string.
-Learn how to log yourself and analyze them.
-Learn how to sim your gear and naviagate all the complex numbers and variables for optimal performance.
-Watch hours of videos related to the dungeons and raids you want to run, and closely study the streamers playing your chosen class and spec.
-Navigate the increasingly harsh and elitist community trying to find a group of players or a guild you can click with, oftentimes spending hundreds of dollars on server and faction transfer fees.
-Perform perfectly in the dungeons when you run them the first time, otherwise you're considered selfish because how dare you waste someone's time by making a mistake and wiping while trying to learn.

...you are essentially locked out of the content.

[munkeyinorbit]

It's hilarious that you're actively proving my point with every post you make. No, they are not an incredibly small portion of the playerbase. It's the opposite. The hardcore players are the ACTUAL minority. The majority of the playerbase are "casuals". So mentalities like yours that continue to push casuals away from increasing character power unless they do a specific activity is what will ultimately kill the game. Notice how Blizzard doesn't share subscription numbers anymore. That's not a sign of a game that is growing and flourishing. That's the sign of a game that is getting closer and closer to the drain. Players have been leaving in droves from Shadowlands. And people like you would rather the game crash and burn than expand accessibility. Because if more players have access, how will you "flex" on them anymore?

- - - Updated - - -



You are UTTERLY wrong. No, every person doesn't have the same opportunity. Especially if they're going the "welfare route". Stop spreading lies.

Give me an example of 1 person that doesn't have the same opportunity as the MT from limit.

I think I have found what the real problem is. It is true that there is no progression past campaign gear out in the world. For arguments sake to keep it simple let's include world boss loot and chests as campaign loot. Ilvl 200 is the ceiling. Without participating in organized group content, you can't get better gear. I think everyone agrees that you could describe these people as at least "a lot". There's no point arguing in the number or proportion. It's simply "a lot".

Once you reach max level it can take as little as 5 hours of played to get pretty close to this ceiling. That's the completion of the campaign and about 30 reknown. Still not maxed out but, close. All that is left is maxing out reknown and waiting for jewelery to turn up in the WQ. Pretty boring. Once this is done, you are finished. With luck it would take 2 weeks? Where's the progression? It's gone. If you want more then you are actually forces into group content. I think this is perfectly fine and everyone has the same opportunity as anyone else.

But why is this all of a sudden a problem? There is no power based infinite grind. A person can't log in, play for the 1 to 2 hours they have allocated for the day and actually progress their character. When we had the necks and the artifact weapons and the azerite pieces there was the ability to continually increase in power while doing world stuff. The secondary features of this grind are also gone. Esscences which when upgraded provided big upgrades. So big that if you dinged max level and immediately got showered in max ilvl gear, you would still be behind people with moderate gear but beat esscences.

This is what is missing but people didn't like it. By people I mean people who listened to the youtube stars and jumped on the "stop forcing me to do stuff" bandwagon.

[Redroniksre]

Accessibility is just a fancier way of saying "free loot." That isn't what this game needs.

No it really isn't. If you think that then i recommend going back to classic/tbc days where you had to walk up hill through the snow just to do certain things. Clearly they are harder because...not accessible? How is it the other top MMOs (ESO, FFXIV) can be more accessible, while still providing a challenge than WoW?

[Relapses]

No it really isn't. If you think that then i recommend going back to classic/tbc days where you had to walk up hill through the snow just to do certain things. Clearly they are harder because...not accessible? How is it the other top MMOs (ESO, FFXIV) can be more accessible, while still providing a challenge than WoW?

WoW is accessible though. The accessibility that guy I quoted is just another way to say he wants to get everything handed to him on a silver platter because he managed to figure out how to enter his credit card information on Blizzard's website.

[TheRevenantHero]

No it really isn't. If you think that then i recommend going back to classic/tbc days where you had to walk up hill through the snow just to do certain things. Clearly they are harder because...not accessible? How is it the other top MMOs (ESO, FFXIV) can be more accessible, while still providing a challenge than WoW?

Because the WoW community has become a whole bunch of people that think it's good to talk shit on players that don't play the game they want them to play it. These are players that would prefer to see the game shut down than have anything "cater to casuals". What they don't realize is that the casuals are the reason the game is still going. the more they push for accessibility to be removed, the more likely the game will die.

[Redroniksre]

WoW is accessible though. The accessibility that guy I quoted is just another way to say he wants to get everything handed to him on a silver platter because he managed to figure out how to enter his credit card information on Blizzard's website.

WoW is only accessible to a degree. Note i consider accessible to be the difficulty to -enter- a piece of content, not the difficulty of the content itself. In other games, you can enter practically 90% of the content only needing to be at the mercy of the game. In WoW, only the very bare minimum is accessible, the rest you are at the mercy of the community, not the game.

[Relapses]

WoW is only accessible to a degree. Note i consider accessible to be the difficulty to -enter- a piece of content, not the difficulty of the content itself. In other games, you can enter practically 90% of the content only needing to be at the mercy of the game. In WoW, only the very bare minimum is accessible, the rest you are at the mercy of the community, not the game.

At what point has that not been the case, though? Why is it suddenly now in SL that players are crying foul that the game isn't giving them what they want? The reason is obvious. Players aren't getting WF/TF'd upgrades any more and they're upset that their item levels aren't going up while doing absolutely nothing to try to make that happen. Legion/BfA spoiled these players and now that their free item level has been removed they're railing against Blizzard and using all the same braindead "da game's dying" arguments that are nearly old enough to vote by now. It's old.

[Redroniksre]

At what point has that not been the case, though? Why is it suddenly now in SL that players are crying foul that the game isn't giving them what they want? The reason is obvious. Players aren't getting WF/TF'd upgrades any more and they're upset that their item levels aren't going up while doing absolutely nothing to try to make that happen. Legion/BfA spoiled these players and now that their free item level has been removed they're railing against Blizzard and using all the same braindead "da game's dying" arguments that are nearly old enough to vote by now. It's old.

People didn't realize that MMOs don't -need- to have you jump through hoops to do content. Now there are other options out there that do things better and people are arguing that WoW is falling behind. It was a step in the right direction to do M+ since WoD was a massive failure content wise without them, but the newer expansions just are not keeping up with the competition in terms of things you can do by yourself (aka. without subjecting yourself to community shifting standards)

[munkeyinorbit]

Trying to make it sound like anyone at ilvl 196 can "simply" go work a +2 key up to a +14 through the regular pugging process is absurd.

At ilvl 196 you were getting carried in a +14.

What was your overall dps for this +2 +14 and which dungeon was it?

All of this is irrelevant. This is prob an extreme case but there's nothing stopping anyone from doing it themselves. I have done something similar with 3 alts. Not as impressive, but over about three weeks I got them all up to completing 10s and 11s. Not a 14 but they all started out at dogshit 190 ilvl and their first 10 was at 195. 220 ilvl is enough for me for these toons and they all sit at 205 to 210 now. Still works in progress but past the impossible to get past 200 ilvl. No raiding, just using my keys.