Why is end game tailored so much against the casual player?

[TheRevenantHero]

The thing is, SL caters to this demographic to an almost hilarious point. And seeing as how 9.1 is cut out of exactly the same cloth, it seems that Ion is convinced that such is the way to go.

And people are wondering why the game is losing more and more players. It's almost like people don't want to be surrounded by terrible gameplay and nasty attitudes.

[Ohvul]

Why would a casual player care about having a 235 legendary / optimal covenant?

If my playtime per week is a tenth of that of my peers I shouldnt expect to be able to accomplish as much as my equally skilled peers. If I'm not a casual and I want to play optimally I have more than one character, as it has been since vanilla.

The concept of an "endgame" is just delusion created by the playerbase. The story is nearly fully told running lfr, anything beyond lfr and normal mythic is simply a slider scale to help keep people with more time occupied with additional carrot on a sticks.

[callipygoustp]

Such a small portion of the game is designed for the hardcore/high end player. How much more of the game needs to be whittled down and/or nerfed in order to appease the disgruntled casual player?

(rhetorical question: the answer is, quite obviously, all of it)

[Thelxi]

The answer to the title is simple: Blizzard has gone to great lengths over many years to determine exactly how far they can go squeezing the majority of their customers for max profit and retention.

About the actual idea of switching specs, I kinda like it tbh. I wouldn't mind switching to healer or tank for a fight or two every tier. Some of my most memorable moments as a raider were when I had to tank a boss like Rohash. Requiring a large number of tanks for certain fights would also work as an incentive to include more melees in your roster. This will never happen of course but it's not that crazy.

[rhorle]

Switching a spec takes only 10 seconds, and there are so many hybrid classes, yet there is no practical way to utilize them,
if one doesn't spend considerable amount of time and Shadowlands is even less forgiving in that regard since covenants came into the mix,
and one spec can be vastly superior when using a certain one, while being less than optimal in other,
so for example a healer spec of some class, can use a different covenant than a dps spec from the same character.

That is wrong. A low end guild will benefit from any class being a healer or tank. All Hybrid classes can sufficiently perform for low end content. You don't need to spend a considerable amount either to have two specs. Soul Ash is easy to come by and a rank 1 legendary is easy to get. The effect doesn't change with higher ranks only the item level and other stats.

Covenants are a non-issue as well. You don't need to switch covenants just to play a different spec. If you are a casual player, or a low end guild member, there is no reason you need to have the best covenant at all times. They all perform well enough for an off-spec role. It really seems like you don't understand the game or don't understand the point you want to make.

The "more tanks for some encounters" has been tried in the past and it isn't a great feeling at all. Because someone is forced to be useless or forced to change specs for specific encounters. That is why raiding is designed around a set tank number because of the specialized nature of the role and scaling mechanics.

[Soon-TM]

If my playtime per week is a tenth of that of my peers I shouldnt expect to be able to accomplish as much as my equally skilled peers.

So time invested equals to skill, by this logic. Good to know.

[Glorious Leader]

"people" (butthurt mid tiers) bitched and moaned about being "forced" to do content outside of raiding.For some backwards fucking reason the developers are extremely sensitive to this complaint so its slowly swiging back to raid or die.

[Ohvul]

So time invested equals to skill, by this logic. Good to know.

No. Reading comprehension is difficult apparently

[Goldielocks]

I'm struggling to understand the point here. Casuals don't need most of the stuff being described. If you're min-maxing as a casual then why the fuck are you a casual LMAO

[enigma77]

Yeah no. Hardcore players are still very much the minority. The majority of the playerbase is casuals.

That's a pretty vague statement.

What exactly is a casual and what is not? Is someone who only does LFR a casual? Is someone who does Heroic raids a casual? Is someone who raidlogs 2 nights per week and raids Mythic a casual?

I think that you greatly overestimate the amount of players that is casual in your mind, whatever that is. I would argue a majority of people who actually stay subscribed (and therefore bring in the revenue) are not players who barely play the game. I think the kind of casual you may be referring to should instead be referred to as a tourist. Someone who may resubscribe for a month or two each new content patch/expansion and then leaves the game.

Why would Blizzard focus on such players?

[Crimson Spears]

It is an attempt to cater to a larger and larger demographic. When the game was simply based around the fact you could or couldn't succeed in the content it was off putting to those who couldn't play well enough to move up the tiers.

You have to create a system where a person who is doing the same mindless actively over and over again feels rewarded. More so that reward has to seen as valuable to the "elite" players so it feels like they are making a wise choice in how they spend their time.

It is how AP got started.

[Darsyek]

Now, I brought the casual player argument because, it seems to me like the ones who really suffer from this IMO stupid design choice,
are the guilds on the lower end

There's a lot to unpack in the OP but quite frankly most of it is equally, if not even moreso, inconvenient for the "elitist" side of the game as well. A lot of the arguments about how the game is somehow against casuals effect the high-end players just as much or even more than it effects casual players. A truly "casual" player doesn't care about min-maxing and being optimal, they just want to have something to do that's enjoyable for a couple hours. A lot of people also forget that the WoW player base isn't a binary of elitist or casual and that people exist in between the two extremes.

Switching a spec takes only 10 seconds, and there are so many hybrid classes, yet there is no practical way to utilize them

A low end guild doing normal or heroic progression or low to mid level mythic plus doesn't need everyone to be optimal to be successful. There are fewer mechanics to deal with (in raid) and a lot more room for error. If you have a DPS that switches to Tank for one raid night and they can't manage it, it's not because they had the wrong covenant or picked the wrong conduits, it's because either they don't know the mechanics of the fight or they lack in player skill, and in either case they need practice. The power you gain from a covenant, no matter how much you or anyone else would like to argue otherwise, is not going to be the make-it-or-break-it factor for anyone but the top 1% of the 1%.

Switching a covenant can be done once a week, and one has to also do some chores on top of it, farming a 235ilvl legend takes approximately 5 weeks

Again, both of these things effect the "elitist" crowd just as much, if not more. Casual players generally don't even bother to change their talents to be more optimized for fights, let alone their entire covenant. On the other hand, I know of many, many people that lean more towards the "elitist" side of things that would absolutely LOVE to be able to change their covenant several times a day depending what dungeon or raid they're about to step into or have an arsenal of legendaries to swap between.

Lower end guilds would benefit from it, even if it was: 'John could you heal today, so we could raid?' and I don't think higher end ones would suffer.

This is something you can already do. In my guild, one of our main tanks had to take a few weeks off because of something that happened IRL and I, as a DPS, swapped to tank for those few weeks and did just fine rolling through heroic like it was business as usual and it was the first time I even tanked the raid. I didn't change covenants. I just picked a different soulbind, set a few conduits that sounded good enough for me, and went off to raid. We cleared everything no problem.

I get that not everyone, especially newer players or very casual players, can just swap at the last minute like that, but that's easily solved with practice. The only reason someone else in that situation wouldn't be able to be successful isn't because of their conduits, their soulbind, or even their covenant, it's entirely social. Are these "lower end guilds" willing to be patient with someone in an unfamiliar spec and encourage them and help them learn? Or are they just going to complain that they're not optimal according to guides they blindly follow? If it's the former, then there will be no issues. It may take longer than normal, but you'll get through it. If it's more the later, then you've already lost because you aren't even willing to try. Being "optimal" means nothing if you don't know how to play with your spec or the abilities the covenants give you. I have seen so many "unoptimized" players beat out "optimized" players just because they actually know what they're doing.

[entrust]

I'm struggling to understand the point here. Casuals don't need most of the stuff being described. If you're min-maxing as a casual then why the fuck are you a casual LMAO

in what world utilizing a hybrid class that has tank/dps/heal or 2xdps/heal or tank is min maxing?
It is already in the game, I'm not a developer. It was this way from 2004 and basically is like a false advertisement of your class,
it's like saying you will get 3 in 1, but you don't, and before you discredit me again, my point is:
switching a spec is not a small feat,
and if it was, a lot of smaller guilds could play their raids, mostly mythic difficulty would benefit,
but also I could see it being good for any guild there is,
no matter the level they are playing on.

Switching spec used to cost 50g and some item adjustments,
now it cost an arm and an leg,
pros will always adapt, they no life this game, we all know it.

and as many posters touched before:
casuals bring the most revenue, it is a fact, that's not something one can discuss.

Lastly, as a long time gamer, it really saddens me to see how this community became so elitist and entitled.
People only care about themselves, and nobody cares about hanging out with them boys,
like in the good ol' days.
Nobody would suffer, if you could switch your spec on the fly,
but as no lifers don't need it, they won't support it, because it would take from their elitist factor,
honestly - l2p.

[rhorle]

Nobody would suffer, if you could switch your spec on the fly, but as no lifers don't need it, they won't support it, because it would take from their elitist factor, honestly - l2p.

You are aware that you can change you spec on the fly right? You can't do it in combat or at certain points nor would that make a good design to have that be the case. It has nothing to do with elites or not.

[TheRevenantHero]

I'm struggling to understand the point here. Casuals don't need most of the stuff being described. If you're min-maxing as a casual then why the fuck are you a casual LMAO

Because people like seeing their character increase in power. Even if they're not a hardcore raider, it's still a good feeling because it gives you the sensation of progression to a degree and justifies the $15 sub fee.

[Irian]

This is what happens when a game lasts so long that fans of the original game start developing for it. They're basically trying to tailor the game for what they personally would have enjoyed the most.

Why do you think there's such an excessive focus on M+ leaderboards and world first races? The majority of players give less than a tenth of a shit about these things but the developers are under the impression that those are the types the gam should be designed around.

[ohwell]

So time invested equals to skill, by this logic. Good to know.

Except you don't need to invest hours upon hours to raid or do m+ so yeah your nonsense is invalid. Fact is most self proclaimed "casuals" often log more hours than mythic raiders and yet they have far far far far less skill.

- - - Updated - - -

in what world utilizing a hybrid class that has tank/dps/heal or 2xdps/heal or tank is min maxing?
It is already in the game, I'm not a developer. It was this way from 2004 and basically is like a false advertisement of your class,
it's like saying you will get 3 in 1, but you don't, and before you discredit me again, my point is:
switching a spec is not a small feat,
and if it was, a lot of smaller guilds could play their raids, mostly mythic difficulty would benefit,
but also I could see it being good for any guild there is,
no matter the level they are playing on.

Switching spec used to cost 50g and some item adjustments,
now it cost an arm and an leg,
pros will always adapt, they no life this game, we all know it.

and as many posters touched before:
casuals bring the most revenue, it is a fact, that's not something one can discuss.

Lastly, as a long time gamer, it really saddens me to see how this community became so elitist and entitled.
People only care about themselves, and nobody cares about hanging out with them boys,
like in the good ol' days.
Nobody would suffer, if you could switch your spec on the fly,
but as no lifers don't need it, they won't support it, because it would take from their elitist factor,
honestly - l2p.

lol @ calling the "elitists" no lifers when most self proclaimed casuals play the game far more and let it consume their life far more.

[LordVargK]

You're arguing against casuals, not for them. Casuals often play one spec only and not because of covenants but because they only care (or have the time) to learn one spec or role.
And then a casual does not have to care about covenants. Only a minmaxer has. Having 5% less performance because of the wrong covenant is hardly impactful, and this is assuming that the player plays perfectly (which is often not the case for casuals).
So it boils down to legendaries. And here every class has a choice: make an overall decent one or one optimized for all specs. By now you could have 4 235 legendaries, so making one for each spec is not a problem.

SL (in contrast to Legion and BfA) is incredibly offspec friendly, if you're playing the game casually.

[Soon-TM]

No. Reading comprehension is difficult apparently

You said that time constrained people shouldn't aspire to what more skilled people have, thus establishing a direct connection between time spent and skill. But it looks like you didn't even realise what you wrote.

Except you don't need to invest hours upon hours to raid or do m+ so yeah your nonsense is invalid. Fact is most self proclaimed "casuals" often log more hours than mythic raiders and yet they have far far far far less skill.

- - - Updated - - -



lol @ calling the "elitists" no lifers when most self proclaimed casuals play the game far more and let it consume their life far more.

Yeah, I'd like to see a hard proof of casuals playing much more hours than the elite, while also being overall terrible as you seem to imply.

[shise]

I'm struggling to understand the point here. Casuals don't need most of the stuff being described. If you're min-maxing as a casual then why the fuck are you a casual LMAO

Being a casual has nothing to do with skills.
You might not have time to commit to raids, but you still want to play as optimal as you possibly can.