Why skilled player got so mad about casual getting better loot?

[Relapses]

People didn't realize that MMOs don't -need- to have you jump through hoops to do content. Now there are other options out there that do things better and people are arguing that WoW is falling behind. It was a step in the right direction to do M+ since WoD was a massive failure content wise without them, but the newer expansions just are not keeping up with the competition in terms of things you can do by yourself (aka. without subjecting yourself to community shifting standards)

I don't buy it -- this seems like you've created a floating target that'll always put WoW "just out of reach" of any game that you compare it towards. WoW's single player content isn't supposed to be its main draw, anyway. I feel like that's the main reason Blizzard decided to stop player power progression at the level they have in SL... they want the game to provide you a clear direction to explore new avenues you might not have otherwise. They want players learning dungeons in M+. They want players to try Normal Mode raiding after clearing the LFR. They don't want you to sit in Oribos for two hours planning a route for dailies and obtaining all of your upgrades via a mega-TF'd item from a WQ.

At the end of the day, WoW does two things better than any other game out there: Raiding and M+. (I guess you could throw PvP in there but for the purpose of this discussion that kind of seems like a red herring.) The degree to which you succeed in either of those things is directly tied to your character's power. Neither require the insurmountable time investment you'll see detractors in this thread repeatedly imply they do; they simply require that you have a firm grasp of game mechanics and are comfortable subjecting yourself to the social pressures of either raiding or pushing keys. What I see a lot in this thread are players who have neither the game knowledge nor the desire to learn game knowledge sit upon their convenient throne of "casuals vs. elitists" and pretend like it's the games' fault they don't feel comfortable doing the activities which would give them the player power they desire. It's a very boring way to frame the argument and I don't like engaging with it because it always seems to go back to rote "you're advocating for the death of the game," claims.

[Echocho]

FF14 is still pretty linear, however it is far better than WoW in that regard. The gap between someone doing the best content in FF14 and someone only doing queue content is far smaller than someone doing Mythic vs. LFR in WoW. So you really don't feel too much at a disadvantage in FF14, while in WoW you feel practically a whole patch behind.

What's ironic is that FFXIV has almost no PvP at all and no damage meters so you being less geared wouldn't be much of an issue. But it also means that the community has almost no toxicity at all so people don't really care what gear other players have.

[ippollite]

I don't buy it -- this seems like you've created a floating target that'll always put WoW "just out of reach" of any game that you compare it towards. WoW's single player content isn't supposed to be its main draw, anyway. I feel like that's the main reason Blizzard decided to stop player power progression at the level they have in SL... they want the game to provide you a clear direction to explore new avenues you might not have otherwise. They want players learning dungeons in M+. They want players to try Normal Mode raiding after clearing the LFR. They don't want you to sit in Oribos for two hours planning a route for dailies and obtaining all of your upgrades via a mega-TF'd item from a WQ.

At the end of the day, WoW does a two things better than any other game out there: Raiding and M+. (I guess you could throw PvP in there but for the purpose of this discussion that kind of seems like a red herring.) The degree to which you succeed in either of those things is directly tied to your character's power. Neither require the insurmountable time investment you'll see detractors in this thread repeatedly imply they do; they simply require that you have a firm grasp of game mechanics and are comfortable subjecting yourself to the social pressures of either raiding or pushing keys. What I see a lot in this thread are players who have neither the game knowledge nor the desire to learn game knowledge sit upon their convenient throne of "casuals vs. elitists" and pretend like it's the games' fault they don't feel comfortable doing the activities which would give them the player power they desire. It's a very boring way to frame the argument and I don't like engaging with it because it always seems to go back to rote "you're advocating for the death of the game," claims.

So, to briefly summarise: 'The game has always been the same, but it hasnt and thats why it needed to be changed to stop players playing solo. But it didnt really change anything because its exactly how its always been'. I think thats it right? Reminds me of the arguments about how 'ANYONE can do a mythic zero, theyre so easy, every player should be able to do a +6 no problem with their covenant gear' but the second you say 'lets put them on lfd then' you're immediately met with 'oh you cant do that, players would find them too difficult and start calling for them to be nerfed'.

Its all about which argument is currently the most useful, not which one is true.

Its always been the same, and thats why it had to be changed because the game should never change. Just call it for what it is: a deliberate change of design. Why do we have to pretend like this is how its always been? Yes, i agree, they want to cap off solo progression. Yes, i also agree, they want to push you into 'the three pillars' of endgame content. Just as you say they are doing. They are deliberately changing the game as it was before. How far back do we need to go? Bfa? Well, it changed, you said it. So we can agree.

Legion? Bfa was legion 2.0. If anything it had MORE rng barriers and more world grinding. It had the mage tower, withered army training, emissaries, paragon emissaries, rep grinds up to your eyeballs, lego drops, story campaigns, invasions. Its a solo players dream. So not that one. Wod... ah, you have wod. Definitely changed from wod to legion. Panda? LFR boom, lego cloak quest chain, all the dailys, trove of the thunder king, oh, and so many reps (all with pretty cool gear). I guess, wod was a massive change from panda. So cata... i couldnt possibly. Aside the first month, i skipped it. I heard it started off really badly, then blizzard caved. Then ended with a pedicure. Either way, not even sure how to fit it into the schema? Was it solo friendly?

Because wrath was. Oh my heavens. Badges badges badges badges badges badges badges, badges, badges, badges, badges, badges, mushroom! mushroom! I mean, we dont even need to talk about that right? LFD? Aoe spam dungeons. Wintergrasp. All the epics!

TBC? Ummm... hmmm... i dont think it was particularly solo friendly. I guess theres the same case as vanilla (so may as well lump them in together): the leveling was a huge time investment. End game heroic dungeons (or in vanilla terms, end game dungeons) were pretty much accessible. Arguably because we all just accepted whoever wanted to come along to get the group formed quicker. There wasnt really the gearscore/achievement/inspection at fountain thing. That was wrath when that really started. But still, you had your attunements to work on, once you got them, there were probably guilds looking for players for kara/gruul/mag anyways, so the solo player was definitely more of an outlier in general. Not to say it wasnt a viable way to play the game, just that it was arguably less common before the growth and growth in PUGging (and the tools available to players to make them happen).

Either way, game kept changing. But it didnt change from some previous singular aberration. Its constantly been in flux and the pendulum is constantly swinging. So next expansion i look forward to the 'omg, this game is constantly catering to casual/lazy players, games dead, ashes of creation is going to bury wow!' from all the people currently excited about the game catering to their playstyle preferences.

[Relapses]

Either way, game kept changing. But it didnt change from some previous singular aberration. Its constantly been in flux and the pendulum is constantly swinging. So next expansion i look forward to the 'omg, this game is constantly catering to casual/lazy players, games dead, ashes of creation is going to bury wow!' from all the people currently excited about the game catering to their playstyle preferences.

Does the game being in a constant state of flux prevent me from making observations that I feel are relevant to the discussion? I don't really understand what you're getting at here.

[TheRevenantHero]

What's ironic is that FFXIV has almost no PvP at all and no damage meters so you being less geared wouldn't be much of an issue. But it also means that the community has almost no toxicity at all so people don't really care what gear other players have.

What are you talking about? FF14 definitely has pvp. It's super confusing to me though so I don't go near it. Also, the community is not only not toxic but most people will actively try to help you improve if they see you struggling. Meanwhile, people in WoW are more likely to kick you out of the group and tell you to fuck off if you die once to a mechanic.

- - - Updated - - -

So, to briefly summarise: 'The game has always been the same, but it hasnt and thats why it needed to be changed to stop players playing solo. But it didnt really change anything because its exactly how its always been'. I think thats it right? Reminds me of the arguments about how 'ANYONE can do a mythic zero, theyre so easy, every player should be able to do a +6 no problem with their covenant gear' but the second you say 'lets put them on lfd then' you're immediately met with 'oh you cant do that, players would find them too difficult and start calling for them to be nerfed'.

Its all about which argument is currently the most useful, not which one is true.

Its always been the same, and thats why it had to be changed because the game should never change. Just call it for what it is: a deliberate change of design. Why do we have to pretend like this is how its always been? Yes, i agree, they want to cap off solo progression. Yes, i also agree, they want to push you into 'the three pillars' of endgame content. Just as you say they are doing. They are deliberately changing the game as it was before. How far back do we need to go? Bfa? Well, it changed, you said it. So we can agree.

Legion? Bfa was legion 2.0. If anything it had MORE rng barriers and more world grinding. It had the mage tower, withered army training, emissaries, paragon emissaries, rep grinds up to your eyeballs, lego drops, story campaigns, invasions. Its a solo players dream. So not that one. Wod... ah, you have wod. Definitely changed from wod to legion. Panda? LFR boom, lego cloak quest chain, all the dailys, trove of the thunder king, oh, and so many reps (all with pretty cool gear). I guess, wod was a massive change from panda. So cata... i couldnt possibly. Aside the first month, i skipped it. I heard it started off really badly, then blizzard caved. Then ended with a pedicure. Either way, not even sure how to fit it into the schema? Was it solo friendly?

Because wrath was. Oh my heavens. Badges badges badges badges badges badges badges, badges, badges, badges, badges, badges, mushroom! mushroom! I mean, we dont even need to talk about that right? LFD? Aoe spam dungeons. Wintergrasp. All the epics!

TBC? Ummm... hmmm... i dont think it was particularly solo friendly. I guess theres the same case as vanilla (so may as well lump them in together): the leveling was a huge time investment. End game heroic dungeons (or in vanilla terms, end game dungeons) were pretty much accessible. Arguably because we all just accepted whoever wanted to come along to get the group formed quicker. There wasnt really the gearscore/achievement/inspection at fountain thing. That was wrath when that really started. But still, you had your attunements to work on, once you got them, there were probably guilds looking for players for kara/gruul/mag anyways, so the solo player was definitely more of an outlier in general. Not to say it wasnt a viable way to play the game, just that it was arguably less common before the growth and growth in PUGging (and the tools available to players to make them happen).

Either way, game kept changing. But it didnt change from some previous singular aberration. Its constantly been in flux and the pendulum is constantly swinging. So next expansion i look forward to the 'omg, this game is constantly catering to casual/lazy players, games dead, ashes of creation is going to bury wow!' from all the people currently excited about the game catering to their playstyle preferences.

I wish there was a way to like people's posts. I appreciate you pointing out how utterly ridiculous it is to try and constantly push casuals away any time the topic of loot is brought up but they don't really have a legitimate reason. So many people in this thread saying "This is how it's always been!" despite the fact that is 100% wrong.

[Tadkins]

Legion? Bfa was legion 2.0. If anything it had MORE rng barriers and more world grinding. It had the mage tower, withered army training, emissaries, paragon emissaries, rep grinds up to your eyeballs, lego drops, story campaigns, invasions. Its a solo players dream. So not that one. Wod... ah, you have wod. Definitely changed from wod to legion. Panda? LFR boom, lego cloak quest chain, all the dailys, trove of the thunder king, oh, and so many reps (all with pretty cool gear). I guess, wod was a massive change from panda. So cata... i couldnt possibly. Aside the first month, i skipped it. I heard it started off really badly, then blizzard caved. Then ended with a pedicure. Either way, not even sure how to fit it into the schema? Was it solo friendly?

I miss the everliving hell out of Legion. Many of the other expansions were also quite fun but I think Legion was my favorite. Never felt left out. There was just so much to do, always something going on. It really was the best.

But yup, yours was an excellent post, and totally correct.

I did play all of Cataclysm and you were right on the money. There wasn't much for a solo player in the beginning, all the horror stories kept me from even queuing for dungeons, and the raids were tough and exclusive. Did actually take a decent break at that time. Not really a lot to do there. The end of it really opened things up though.

[Relapses]

I wish there was a way to like people's posts. I appreciate you pointing out how utterly ridiculous it is to try and constantly push casuals away any time the topic of loot is brought up but they don't really have a legitimate reason. So many people in this thread saying "This is how it's always been!" despite the fact that is 100% wrong.

LMFAO alrighty dude. "Me likey Legion because I get many single player things," then, in the next fucking sentence, "the games dying because Blizzard stopped releasing sub numbers in... ::checks notes:: ...the expansion before they made a single player version of WoW."

[ippollite]

Certainly not,.l. I would just prefer we dont pretend that the game has some platonic state we should be comparing it against. The game isnt 'correcting' an error. Its changing its direction. And thats fine. But it's likely its going to swing back soon enough and we'll be repeating the same arguments from the other side in no time.

[Redroniksre]

I don't buy it -- this seems like you've created a floating target that'll always put WoW "just out of reach" of any game that you compare it towards. WoW's single player content isn't supposed to be its main draw, anyway. I feel like that's the main reason Blizzard decided to stop player power progression at the level they have in SL... they want the game to provide you a clear direction to explore new avenues you might not have otherwise. They want players learning dungeons in M+. They want players to try Normal Mode raiding after clearing the LFR. They don't want you to sit in Oribos for two hours planning a route for dailies and obtaining all of your upgrades via a mega-TF'd item from a WQ.

At the end of the day, WoW does two things better than any other game out there: Raiding and M+. (I guess you could throw PvP in there but for the purpose of this discussion that kind of seems like a red herring.) The degree to which you succeed in either of those things is directly tied to your character's power. Neither require the insurmountable time investment you'll see detractors in this thread repeatedly imply they do; they simply require that you have a firm grasp of game mechanics and are comfortable subjecting yourself to the social pressures of either raiding or pushing keys. What I see a lot in this thread are players who have neither the game knowledge nor the desire to learn game knowledge sit upon their convenient throne of "casuals vs. elitists" and pretend like it's the games' fault they don't feel comfortable doing the activities which would give them the player power they desire. It's a very boring way to frame the argument and I don't like engaging with it because it always seems to go back to rote "you're advocating for the death of the game," claims.

I can agree that WoW has raiding as a pretty well done staple. Though I wish they would take hints from FF14 where boss fights are very clear as to what's happening. I don't need to wonder "what hit me" because you can very much see it. Anyways, I compare WoW to the other front runners because the genre is always evolving. Back in the day sure people loved the less accessible content, but the genre has moved on from requiring other players to living In a world -with- other players.

Blizzard has already said in the past, no amount of incentive gets people to move on to harder content. That is why abandoning a large group of the playerbase in my opinion is a bad idea. With the addition of M+ scores built in, I see no reason they couldn't add them to LFD with score requirements, the same way people filter out manually now.

[ippollite]

I can agree that WoW has raiding as a pretty well done staple. Though I wish they would take hints from FF14 where boss fights are very clear as to what's happening. I don't need to wonder "what hit me" because you can very much see it. Anyways, I compare WoW to the other front runners because the genre is always evolving. Back in the day sure people loved the less accessible content, but the genre has moved on from requiring other players to living In a world -with- other players.

Blizzard has already said in the past, no amount of incentive gets people to move on to harder content. That is why abandoning a large group of the playerbase in my opinion is a bad idea. With the addition of M+ scores built in, I see no reason they couldn't add them to LFD with score requirements, the same way people filter out manually now.

TLDR:
1. Through RaderIO, blizzard should open up mythic plus to LFD.
2. Solo playing is now incredibly common to the core gameplay experience as guild play declined.
3. No one knows why it happened.
4. By allowing mythic plus into LFD, more players will likely access it. LFG still remains as is.
5. Through the gates imposed by the matchmaking system (players must climb ranks one at a time), players prove their capability with increased io score. With increased io score, they open up the next tier.
6. This preserves the original intended difficulty and challenge and can be tuned appropriately by blizzard (with lower boundaries at lower levels, and more stringent boundaries at higher levels).
7. In addition, raiderio score becomes the defacto means of ranking players in game. Retaining significant ilvl gaps are less important. This allows blizz to go back to paths which worked for world players (rng world drops and steadily increasing world quest rewards) whilst also retaining the core means for players to make informed choices on who they play with (RIO score).
8. Everyone is happy except the people who will complain that they'll 'feel forced to do it' as they always do about anything that isnt heroic/mythic raiding/mythic 15s.

I agree on that final point. Its a great opportunity for blizzard to protect their vision whilst simultaneously widening the pool of players exposed to that content. Ive no idea why people dont just make their own groups. We all did it in vanilla and TBC. It was just how we played the game. This WAS a keystone in the casual gameplay experience. I mentioned above things like vanilla end game dungeons (strat, scholo, BRD, LBRS and UBRS), most players did those dungeons. We all spammed general or trade for players. My rogue in TBC was benched for like 5 expansions (i only leveled her up again in bfa) precisely because she spent 2 hours every night just trying to find tanks and healers to get her attunement done. It was normal.

Now its not. Because the game, or the playerbase just preferred using LFD in wrath? Or just because they got old and stopped playing? Or because PUG toxicity started filtering in through gearscore and achievement reqs? Or the actual high end content just became more difficult? Or guilds collapsed mid wrath through cata (the guild finder and the guild perk system didnt come out of a vacuum) due to the 10 man difficulty levels allowing for less attrition and churn in even low end guilds as the 'hardcore game' (raiding and arena), became more cliquey.

Ive no idea what it was; if it was one of those things or all of those things. But the dynamic switched from guilds to pugs. And with it came the 'solo' player (who always existed as an outlier, but was clearly increasing expansion by expansion). So perhaps the integration of raiderio is a great opportunity for blizzard to justify creating LFD mythic dungeons (it doesnt have to be all of them, and it certainly shouldnt replace lfg), with a few extra restrictions (you literally climb the ladder according to your io score through dungeon finder. Thus you are gated by the system rather than lfg where you are gated by the community). Another interesting thing to consider is that it takes a lot of the guesswork out of ilvl, achievements and experience. It means gear, rather than being the be all and end all, becomes only ONE factor in consideration of other player's skill level and capabilities. This means blizzard can reduce the endless gear inflation and heavy gaps between players at the top and bottom end in terms of power. It gives them the opportunity to equalise the gear gap without damaging the skill issues (since their ioscore is really the core progression system). Thus, they can have more world content with interesting rewards or even just return to the bfa gearing process through world quest upgrades (which casual players likely found quite satisfying - a slower means of progression by some way, but something players could always work on). None of that will help your io score. Completing IO/ranked content will do that. Thus even if players have decent gear in the end, they will still face a barrier of entry to more difficult content.

So two ways they can pull the 'elitism' and 'toxicity' out of raiderio integration whilst simultaneously opening up access through LFD, and solving the issue of world quest players just running out of stuff they want to do in terms of power progression.

[Tadkins]

Ive no idea why people dont just make their own groups.

You kinda answered your own question in the same paragraph.

My rogue in TBC was benched for like 5 expansions (i only leveled her up again in bfa) precisely because she spent 2 hours every night just trying to find tanks and healers to get her attunement done. It was normal.

For someone that's not well connected or doesn't stand out, it's a serious struggle to put together groups. The usual stresses of group leadership aside, waiting hours for that tank and healer to show up can be demoralizing. I remember trying like hell to get folks together in BC for Heroic Durnholde and no one ever joined. I never got to run it until Wrath of the Lich King, lols.

[chiddie]

There’s not much more else to say: solo players who refuse to do group content that require a certain amount of difficulty can only progress with gear level up to a certain point.

Is it right? Is it wrong? Dunno but that’s how it is. The game is designed like this, it’s NOT players fault. If you don’t like and want this to be changed you’re fighting in the wrong forum.

[ippollite]

You kinda answered your own question in the same paragraph.



For someone that's not well connected or doesn't stand out, it's a serious struggle to put together groups. The usual stresses of group leadership aside, waiting hours for that tank and healer to show up can be demoralizing. I remember trying like hell to get folks together in BC for Heroic Durnholde and no one ever joined. I never got to run it until Wrath of the Lich King, lols.

I rerolled a resto shammy. It put me on the turbo elevator to kara.

[Doffen]

LMFAO alrighty dude. "Me likey Legion because I get many single player things," then, in the next fucking sentence, "the games dying because Blizzard stopped releasing sub numbers in... ::checks notes:: ...the expansion before they made a single player version of WoW."

Legion <3 <3 <3

WoD >>> BfA (just to show I do care about WoDers :*)

[Tadkins]

There’s not much more else to say: solo players who refuse to do group content that require a certain amount of difficulty can only progress with gear level up to a certain point.

Is it right? Is it wrong? Dunno but that’s how it is. The game is designed like this, it’s NOT players fault. If you don’t like and want this to be changed you’re fighting in the wrong forum.

It isn't even a flat refusal to do group content, at least in my case. I'd love to find a good group. I've just been trying to emphasize in this thread how genuinely hard that is in this game though.

I rerolled a resto shammy. It put me on the turbo elevator to kara.

Ah yeah that works. xD I was a rogue during BC. Wasn't so much the class as it was that I was on a low-pop PvP server at the time and circumstances IRL made me have to play at weirder hours. Running a dungeon for me at the time was just a hilarious fantasy. Can't describe how super happy I was when LFD came to Wrath.

[Echo of Soul]

There’s not much more else to say: solo players who refuse to do group content that require a certain amount of difficulty can only progress with gear level up to a certain point.

Is it right? Is it wrong? Dunno but that’s how it is. The game is designed like this, it’s NOT players fault. If you don’t like and want this to be changed you’re fighting in the wrong forum.

Everyone deserves a progression path though. Something to work towards. iLvls isn't really the issue.
The problem is that if you only do matchmade group content because that's what you're comfortable with your progression path ends after two weeks. At that point you have two choices, move on to organized premade group content or unsubscribe. Since casual players are leaving in droves for games like FFXIV that offer the kind of progression that they want it would seem that most choose to unsubscribe.

[Crimson Spears]

Everyone deserves a progression path though. Something to work towards. iLvls isn't really the issue.
The problem is that if you only do matchmade group content because that's what you're comfortable with your progression path ends after two weeks. At that point you have two choices, move on to organized premade group content or unsubscribe. Since casual players are leaving in droves for games like FFXIV that offer the kind of progression that they want it would seem that most choose to unsubscribe.

We tried this with mage tower and visions.

WoW isn't a good single player game and while I have nothing against final fantasy online the end game when it comes to difficulty is trivial compared to wow. If wow lowered itself to that level of difficulty its audience would blow through a patch in a week.

[Daffan]

Everyone deserves a progression path though. Something to work towards. iLvls isn't really the issue.
The problem is that if you only do matchmade group content because that's what you're comfortable with your progression path ends after two weeks. At that point you have two choices, move on to organized premade group content or unsubscribe. Since casual players are leaving in droves for games like FFXIV that offer the kind of progression that they want it would seem that most choose to unsubscribe.

how can Blizzard give them a progression path when welfare gear from each patch completely invalidates their game already

how can Blizzard make it even easier???? lmao

[Crimson Spears]

how can Blizzard give them a progression path when welfare gear from each patch completely invalidates their game already

how can Blizzard make it even easier???? lmao

Well they could change how gear works...

Make it so lfr starts at 200 for example then only goes up 5 ilv each patch.
Have normal start at 205 and go up 5 each patch
Etc,etc, having dungeons always cap out at mythic loot for a capped 15.

That way if people only lfr they can slowly be filtered into normal?

Admit its just an idea of the top of my head.

[Necromantic]

Guessing the "skilled" player have killed the content 10x before a casual player kills it.. (Because a casual dont get invited to progression)

So, the "skilled" player is prob. annoyed that his loot didnt drop after 10 tries, and yours drop after first try.

Doubt they think about you as a player, instead they think of the work that goes into getting particular BiS items, when you are missing only 1 item..

You're assuming casual players can't be skilled, which is false. I've known plenty who are casual and are far better than some who play all day long yet still can't master their rotations.

Too often, people incorrectly try and make "bad players" and "casual players" mean the same thing.