{TV} The Falcon and the Winter Soldier

[qwerty123456]

The Sharon thing is still super weird to me. I simply don't understand her motivations to do what she's doing. Or why no one saw through it.

In all fairness everything is weird about her. She willingly took a mission that would possibly lead to her boning her great uncle.

[Triceron]

The series was enjoyable, but only if I turn my brain off. Not a series I'd recommend, it seems like you could get a cliff notes version of this whole story and not miss out on anything.

The jokes fell flat, the characters seemed somewhat cliche (even with the twists) and the overall plot didn't do all that much for me. There weren't even any notable big fights that I can say I really cared about, since all the action was just a situational reaction to a plot I didn't really care about. Like, as much as I felt this way about Age of Ultron, I could at least point at a Hulk vs Ironman/Hulkbuster event, or the big end battle against hordes of robots. In this, I didn't really feel like there were those moments. The finale was somewhat of a letdown for me since the setup for Falcon's cool moments didn't really resolve my expectations for a show about bad guy super soldiers. It's not something I'd watch the series again for, really.

Either way, this series sets up a lot of new seeds for future stories. More power broker shenanigans, start of the Thunderbolts, new Avengers lineup with a new Cap to lead them. Good setup for future movies.

[Henx]

I was much more impressed with WandaVision. It got me really hooked and had a lot of mysteries that raised questions. I felt like in this show, there was potential for good climaxes but they always decreased, e.g. Walker, was really excited with his arch after he killed the guy but it was too rushed. Like a roller coaster that never really gets to the highest points.

I am not that impressed by the flagsmashers as villians, little bit dull. Sharon can be quite interesting later imo. Looking back at the show and thinking more of it like a show of how Falcon became Captain America and Bucky got amended (perhaps it's meant to be looked in that way) and not like good guys vs. bad guys, I like the story more.

[Ausr]

Pretty happy with the finale. I was actually surprised they took care of the threat so early in the episode, though. But I guess it let them wrap things up.

Some really nice fight moves, they're always fun.

Sam's speech was a pretty important one for the world. I just wish I liked his new Cap Falcon outfit a bit more while listening to it lol

I don't think I really have any issues with the series as a whole. Maybe just that I didn't really care about the after credits scene. That could also just be because I was expecting a bit more.

Speaking of that scene, though, am I recalling correctly that US Agent is a good guy? He does seem to have had his redemption, I suppose. But its a bit shadowy with whatsherface setting things up like that.

What's next on the Marvel slate at this point? Loki?

He's an anti-hero/villain in the comics so it all works out there with him.

[eschatological]

As to the rest of your point, I agree and I don't. Labeling them as terrorists was fine, they used murder and fear to achieve their political goals, they are terrorists. To me the show could have made its point more solidly if it highlighted a parallel organization working toward the same goals, who got a seat at the table in the global council or whatever it was and that was what moved things forward. Saying "we should listen to these violent extremists because they were willing to kill and die for their beliefs" is a) not a great idea and b) not something that actual people in power would respond to, since it encourages more violence. The point that what these governments was doing is wrong could have been made without supporting her actions.

The problem they had was they wanted to make the Flag-Smashers (FS henceforth) serious "counter-revolutionaries" but they didn't want to undercut a villain arc. Like, they wanted to make them sympathetic, but also have a believable villain. There's two paths here: A) if you want to make them a villain, you have them kill people. This makes the question of whether killing is sometimes justified for your cause an interesting one, the label of "terrorist" vs. "revolutionary" or "guerilla" a relevant discussion, but it makes the person who makes that decision unquestionably villainous. Karli was unquestionably a villain by the end of this, and thus Sam's sympathy towards her, even during the fight, felt jarring. She was trying to kill him, and the symbol he stood for, and he was still like, "You're just misunderstood."

B) you try and make them more sympathetic than villainous, have them never kill anyone but go serious Robin Hood (like the one guy said of Karli in an early episode), which then undercuts any sympathy for John Walker and his tactics. Which is fine if you're doing a huge heel turn for Walker into a villain, but it's clear now they didn't do this so John could suddenly be an okay guy again....which in and of itself was jarring. It was a rough and uneven landing, at best.

[Aurrora]

The problem they had was they wanted to make the Flag-Smashers (FS henceforth) serious "counter-revolutionaries" but they didn't want to undercut a villain arc. Like, they wanted to make them sympathetic, but also have a believable villain. There's two paths here: A) if you want to make them a villain, you have them kill people. This makes the question of whether killing is sometimes justified for your cause an interesting one, the label of "terrorist" vs. "revolutionary" or "guerilla" a relevant discussion, but it makes the person who makes that decision unquestionably villainous. Karli was unquestionably a villain by the end of this, and thus Sam's sympathy towards her, even during the fight, felt jarring. She was trying to kill him, and the symbol he stood for, and he was still like, "You're just misunderstood."

It seems like this was a casualty of the cut pandemic storyline. If the entire reason she was willing to kill people was because people being displaced by the returned were condemned to death by the GRC it does make her a sympathetic villain. If the entire reason she's killing people was because she felt those displaced by the blipped were entitled to their stuff, it just makes her an asshole.

[PACOX]

Pretty happy with the finale. I was actually surprised they took care of the threat so early in the episode, though. But I guess it let them wrap things up.

Some really nice fight moves, they're always fun.

Sam's speech was a pretty important one for the world. I just wish I liked his new Cap Falcon outfit a bit more while listening to it lol

I don't think I really have any issues with the series as a whole. Maybe just that I didn't really care about the after credits scene. That could also just be because I was expecting a bit more.

Speaking of that scene, though, am I recalling correctly that US Agent is a good guy? He does seem to have had his redemption, I suppose. But its a bit shadowy with whatsherface setting things up like that.

What's next on the Marvel slate at this point? Loki?

US Agent is boiled down to Captain America without the moral compass. He isn't a villian but will do things Steve wouldn't do.

[eschatological]

It seems like this was a casualty of the cut pandemic storyline. If the entire reason she was willing to kill people was because people being displaced by the returned were condemned to death by the GRC it does make her a sympathetic villain. If the entire reason she's killing people was because she felt those displaced by the blipped were entitled to their stuff, it just makes her an asshole.

Shall we start a #ReleaseThePandemicCut hashtag?

I definitely concur, the pandemic storyline would have probably walked this line a bit better. As it is, nebulous "open borders" arguments are very bizarre. I think you can even see it in that last speech by Sam, it looks like it was on a closed, undynamic set after the re-shoots, where he is talking extemporaneously and very flatly to a couple of powerful politicians while they look sheepish. I would imagine this speech would be much more dynamic but they had to cut around the pandemic stuff/re-shoot it.

[Very Tired]

Bucky: Hey, you know that son of yours you have been mourning for years and years. I killed him.

Old man: Understandable, have a nice day. I'll be going out for drinks because I am over this.

[bmjclark]

Meh. The pacing of this entire show just felt bizarre. The first 4 episodes seemed to be building up to John Walker being the bad guy and a total asshole until the plot ran into a wall on episode 5 and they refocused on the flag smashers and completely forgot about John Walker. John Walker brutally murdered a flag smasher in the middle of the street and that felt like it should have mattered more but it pretty much just felt like a plot device to make him not be captain america anymore and now he's just pretend captain america instead.

Honestly, I liked the first 4 episodes (especially the 4th), the last 2 just fell flat hard for me.

[Zaktar]

Bucky: Hey, you know that son of yours you have been mourning for years and years. I killed him.

Old man: Understandable, have a nice day. I'll be going out for drinks because I am over this.

No no we can't tie that off properly, we need at least two extra minutes of punching people.

[Beazy]

Marvel announced CA4 with TFATWS’s show runner.

https://comicbook.com/marvel/amp/new...mpression=true

Aw yeah son.

[Vilendor]

First 4 episode is a big mess with story line jumping all around, hard to follow plot line, characters, motivations and criminally badly written dialogues. Felt like they did WoW quests all around Azeroth for McGuffins. The last 2 episode literally turned into full on BLM propaganda and race bait, then at the end Sam ends racism, hunger and world poverty with an extremely stupid speech/lecturing

What an utter shitshow. This is the new marvel? Whelp, good luck with that.

Bringing up forbidden topics isn't allowed. Infracted.

[Beazy]

First 4 episode is a big mess with story line jumping all around, hard to follow plot line, characters, motivations and criminally badly written dialogues. Felt like they did WoW quests all around Azeroth for McGuffins. The last 2 episode literally turned into full on BLM propaganda and race bait, then at the end Sam ends racism, hunger and world poverty with an extremely stupid speech/lecturing

What an utter shitshow. This is the new marvel? Whelp, good luck with that.

LoL BLM?
/facepalm

[tmamass]

What's next on the Marvel slate at this point? Loki?

yes Loki and What if..? (but we have to wait till join, *cry* I want Loki now cause that show seems to be a LOT of fun) and in movies Black Widow and Chang Shi and the legend of the ten rings

[Triceron]

yes Loki and What if..? (but we have to wait till join, *cry* I want Loki now cause that show seems to be a LOT of fun) and in movies Black Widow and Chang Shi and the legend of the ten rings

It's Shang Chi, get it right. Chang Shi doesn't mean anything, but Shang Chi means.... well, it means... 'Upper Air'.....

Hrm. Carry on.

[Endus]

Meh. The pacing of this entire show just felt bizarre. The first 4 episodes seemed to be building up to John Walker being the bad guy and a total asshole until the plot ran into a wall on episode 5 and they refocused on the flag smashers and completely forgot about John Walker. John Walker brutally murdered a flag smasher in the middle of the street and that felt like it should have mattered more but it pretty much just felt like a plot device to make him not be captain america anymore and now he's just pretend captain america instead.

Honestly, I liked the first 4 episodes (especially the 4th), the last 2 just fell flat hard for me.

John Walker's resolution makes more sense when you know that the Contessa is Madam Hydra; he's still fully-disgraced publicly. US Agent is basically a black-ops wetwork kind of guy. He hasn't been "redeemed", here, but he's been given a path into the darkness and, with his choice to help in the fight with the Flagsmashers, that's a choice he's gonna have to make.

If they hadn't had to cut the apparent pandemic storyline, I feel it would've flowed better, but given real-world events, I understand why they cut it.

Sharon's the one bit I really dislike. Not because she's the Power Broker; I called that WAY back and felt it was pretty obvious even in her first episode. Just that they spent SO much time on her bullshit cover story, which could have been spent exploring her bitterness, and at least a hint as to what her actual goals are. I don't think she's "super evil MWAHAHA", but it's more of a "if my country will leave me out in the cold, fuck 'em, I'll figure out how to bring about justice by myself" thing. She's willing to cross lines, but she was as a SHIELD agent in the first place, so that's not really "new". And the US government is hardly presented as noble in this series, so her infiltrating it isn't really automatically malicious, either. The bones are there, they just needed like 5 minutes more dialogue to flesh them out a bit more. I gotta hope there's a bigger reveal planned down the pipe and the stuff with Sharon is just intended as a setup for that, because it's the first real misstep I've seen Marvel make with these shows, otherwise.

[Mojo03]

I was much more impressed with WandaVision. It got me really hooked and had a lot of mysteries that raised questions. I felt like in this show, there was potential for good climaxes but they always decreased, e.g. Walker, was really excited with his arch after he killed the guy but it was too rushed. Like a roller coaster that never really gets to the highest points.

I am not that impressed by the flagsmashers as villians, little bit dull. Sharon can be quite interesting later imo. Looking back at the show and thinking more of it like a show of how Falcon became Captain America and Bucky got amended (perhaps it's meant to be looked in that way) and not like good guys vs. bad guys, I like the story more.

I agree WandaVision was way more impressive and interesting. I was really intrigued where it was going and what was going on - plus they did an amazing job with the sitcom nostalgia.

Falcon felt pretty mediocre and generic with great special effects and a couple great action scenes. I honestly didn't really care about the villian story at all and didn't like the way they portrayed the Walker arc.

[tyrlaan]

First 4 episode is a big mess with story line jumping all around, hard to follow plot line, characters, motivations and criminally badly written dialogues. Felt like they did WoW quests all around Azeroth for McGuffins. The last 2 episode literally turned into full on BLM propaganda and race bait, then at the end Sam ends racism, hunger and world poverty with an extremely stupid speech/lecturing

What an utter shitshow. This is the new marvel? Whelp, good luck with that.

No worries, we'll enjoy it without you!

IMO, the show was fuckin' great!

I am very ready for Cap 4 and a season two.

My only two quibbles are that the new Cap suit looks uncomfortable, especially around the neck, and that I would have liked a bit more resolution for Bucky; i.e. something a bit more tangible, like how Sam has the mantle of Cap now.

[RobertoCarlos]

Did the final have a sky beam?