If the night elves gave half of Ashenvale to the Horde, would there have been peace?

[VladlTutushkin]

Since it's a contested zone, NOT an Alliance zone, it cannot be Night Elf territory.

And it's a neighbor zone to Orgrimmar, and actually quite far from Teldrassil.

Ashenvale was "contested" only because it was invaded, in Warcraft 3 it was a night elven zone. It also was recognized as a night elven zone by the horde itself (not that it stopped them from invading it anyway). And later after SoO horde officially withdrew all claims to it in return for Alliance withdrawing claims on Azshara.

Besides, proximity to a capital hardly matters when talking about territory ownership.

[Varitok]

Garrosh is a Hitler analogue. He didn't want concessions, he wanted war. Similiar to how Germany demanded the Sudetenland and then after promising it was all they wanted, Demanded Danzig from Poland and even ended up having his soldiers dress up like Poles, go into Poland, turn around and pretend to attack the German positions.

It's because Authoritarian powerbases are built on Strength over others, superiority. Constant war is not only a tool they use to push that ideology, it's a necessity to keep their fragile reign from ending. Victory would just cement them more.

[Jastall]

To be fair it's not all that hard to beat the druids in success, considering the world trees have a complete 100% rate of failure and even the great trees inevitably ended up being vectors for Yoggy. And yet they keep doing it.



Given that it's literally called the Barrens and it's never implied to be any sort of breadbasket while it'd be able to sustain hunter-gatherers I'm hard pressed to buy - and the game has in any case never indicated it, that it can survive a rapidly expanding population. I'll freely give you that given how small the orcish population should really be, they should still be able to keep themselves going, but if you accept hte premise of the MMO from Day 1 - that being that there are a lot more orcs (and humans) and a lot fewer night elves than WC3 made clear, then it's generally fine. Likewise, Azshara was haunted and condemned until the Horde took it over under Garrosh. The Durotar coast is uncontested only in the loosest sense, just going through the Classic quest you have everything from Kul Tiran remnants, to the entire Echo Isles to Burning Blade and water elementals harassing the place, compared to the absence of such issues in other, more fertile lands.

The tauren, like certain orc clans, have been nomadic, but unlike the orcs, who at least have shown themselves able to support a sedentary existence with the likes of the Old Horde or the Blackrock Clan able to create sustainable links of supply, the tauren have no record of anything of the sort. There are farms in Barrens and Durotar, but nearly everything in Mulgore except Thunder Bluff looks and is temporary. Now, could Garrosh have gone to the blood elves and gone 'hey, we saved your asses, now actually contribute and grow us some pumpkins'? Sure, in the same way Thrall could've settled them in Mulgore with the tauren or actually bothered to prepare his people for sedentary existence. But that is both out of character for the parties involved and eliminates conflict.

With Feralas it's hit or miss - you have all the problems of Ashenvale at a greater distance, with the caveat that the night elf garrison is slower and you can fight the other inhabitants consequence-free. The thing with Stonard is that it's an older position and probably staffed by such. Kargath is on the other hand incomprehensible as a policy choice. They're there because the dwarves are there and that's about as far as the logic goes.

Other places have Murlocs, Naga and such harassing the coastlines and they can still fish, I meant uncontested in the sense of actual threats not questing mobs. Azeroth is dangerous pretty much everywhere, and if anything the prospect of krumping whatever tries to stop them from fishing should motivate Orcs to do so in the first place.

Feralas also isn't guarded by super powerful Druids or demigods- granted the latter just let the Horde walk in his forest completely unopposed twice for no reason but given that they needed the demon blood and Grommash's strength not to get routed by just Cenarius last time around you'd think the Horde would be more cognizant of such a fact. Then again this also ties into the heavy nerf administered to the Night Elves to make the Horde not the losing faction by default, as you indicate.

And yeah, there wouldn't be conflict if characters were super smart and practical 100% of the time, I get that this is Warcraft and there needs to be reasons for, well, war. When I find the logistics so half-assed all around, making logistics a major reason for war is about as compelling as making Sylvanas a reason for the BFA war when her character is such a trainwreck. Don't flex with no muscle, if you get my drift. They could have made resources the reason for young, rash Garrosh's invasion of NE lands without making the setup such a massive case of telling without showing, which was a major issue all around come Cataclysm but I'll not digress on the subject further.

[masterjc]

Pre-Old Horde Draenor
Orcish clans go for shamanism, fight Ogres (former slavers), Botani (they infest everyone), Goren/Magnaron (big stone giants, so why not?), eachother (probably)
Old Horde - unites, gets fel magic and bloodlust, kills everything that moves, including each other, destroys human nations, so on. genocide of High Arakkoa, Magnaron, Goren, Draenei, Botani, Genesaur, ocrs, ogres, and everything. because, why not?
Dark Horde - sits in volcano shithole and tries burn everything and everyone around, gets allies only as long, as they can help kill others
Gul'Dan - dude fucks everyone on his way to get more power, so he can fuck up more stuff
Cho'gal, while ogre, still leader of huge orcish clan, goes mad all way, and with his mad pale orcs tries bring twilight hour, so all life stops existence on azeroth
Frostwolf (aka good) guys - sit in snowy mountains and technically do nothing useful. gj guys, at least they dont try kill everything around
dragonmaw - enslave and ride dragons so they can kill more guys
Grom's warsong on kalimdor - drink fel, kill demigod, cut down everything, we go demon blood again bros!!
New Horde under thrall - no matter what warchief thinks, they still cut down ashenvale, and cut down more wood than they need, thus provoking Elves more and more, and on their way fuck up some Furbolgs and other races
Garrosh's Horde - even when leader of Horde expedition, his "best idea" against Lich king was to attack and destroy Valiance Keep of Allaince, so they can have port (why build something useful, uif u can kill ur strategic ally against ultimate evil, so u have remaining less alies and enemy has more corpses to raise against you)
when he became warchief, he wanted new weapons of destruction so much, that managed capture Proto-drakes and Magnataurs with childre, to make them fight alliance (bring poor primitive guys from home to other continent to die for war they dont care and against enemy they had nothing against)
pollute only drinking source of own people so much, that they stay without water, and have get water across barren hostile lands from mulgore, and when u cant get enough water, try scare allies, so they give more water - such brains
try start new wars over and over again so ur people has more resources for ......
ah, for more weapons of course. not for homes, or clothes, or better food and farming and economy
but for more weapons, so more people would suffer
True horde - everyone who has some sense and shows that you are wrong, are enemies and must kill them
AU clans - fight everyone else + themselves, with "savage" aroma
Iron Horde - build more weapons, kill more people, because why not? - this really shows how dumb orcs can be, they need no "greatest manipulator guy KJ", who makes them fight vs Draenei, they simply do it, because have weapons and can do it
also, lets keep all bad guys channeled, so they can be used for more conquest and dont think that they might escape somehow
ex-true horde guys - lets save garrosh, so he can bring more ruin to everyone, because "mah true warchief"
Vol'Jin's Horde - we are in strange AU draenor, lets fight alliance on ashran, because they are searching for artifact (which never is found and nobody has idea if it even exists or what it can do), because, what if they get it and use against Gul'Dan or Grommash? no, it must be against us, attaaaack!!!

SYlvanas' Horde -forsaken miss honor, but we got it so much, we will follow her same but worse road in new absurd war, because it's "mah honor"
Mag'Har from AU - we were saved from dying world, lets fight someone else here to fight against.

orcs are pretty dunb

can u name ANYTHING build by Orcs, ANY orc, that is useful for anything but War?

only thing these guys build is
a. houses to live
b. farms for pigs - yeah, why work on earth? meat is easier to get (??)
c. big citadels with lots of spikes for war

[tripleh]

Depends if we are talking about before the tauren joined the horde. Because once the tauren joined then druids were added to the ranks.

[Swnem]

You clearly don't know what the horde is for.

Yet to see if it can be changed. At least they are trying now.

[Syegfryed]

Its like the “I only bully people because they refuse to give me their stuff willingly and i only beat them up because they try to fight back.” Kind of logic.

it must be rly fun to share the echo chamber bias with that guy, seems like is the only way for you two to appear to be right about something

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Garrosh is a Hitler analogue. .

no they aren't, and rly, Godwin law? not saying im surprised, it actually came up later than i expected

[VladlTutushkin]

it must be rly fun to share the echo chamber bias with that guy, seems like is the only way for you two to appear to be right about something

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no they aren't, and rly, Godwin law? not saying im surprised, it actually came up later than i expected

Must be fun ignoring all the people who had similar or same opinion in this entire thread...

Also it takes a special kind of hypocrite to talk about "echo chambers" as horde fan on MMOchamp.

[Syegfryed]

Must be fun ignoring all the people who had similar or same opinion in this entire thread...

funnily enough, the same biased and false opinion, like always.

Also it takes a special kind of hypocrite to talk about "echo chambers" as horde fan on MMOchamp.

Attack the argument, not the person buddy.

[VladlTutushkin]

funnily enough, the same biased and false opinion, like always.



Attack the argument, not the person buddy.

"Biased and false"... Yeah, no. What is it with the horde and claiming that every opinion aside from yours (which is ALWAYS controversial in the worst sense of it, slanted and often looks like a cheap bait) is "false! Biased! Alliance bias!"?

No, Ashenvale has nothing to do with orcs. They could have found another way to solve their resource problem even BEFORE they got all the land grabs from Cata and Legion. After that they have no real reason to mess with Asehnvale other then trying to remove Alliance from Kalimdor, but thats not a resource goal.

Besides, you attacked me first.

[Jastall]

it must be rly fun to share the echo chamber bias with that guy, seems like is the only way for you two to appear to be right about something

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no they aren't, and rly, Godwin law? not saying im surprised, it actually came up later than i expected

Blizzard Godwined him themselves. Like c'mon, a racial supremacist holed up in a bunker underneath his city as the world comes to claim justice for his crimes, whose followers are SS-esque secret police wielding radical new technologies who rant and rave rhetoric about lesser races, purity of blood, land that should be theirs and world domination, with an Indiana Jones inspires fascination for ancient evil artifacts? The only way they could have made the True Horde more Nazi is by having them goose stepping around the place and run death camps, albeit Sylvanas picked up the slack there later on.

[Syegfryed]

"Biased and false"... Yeah, no. What is it with the horde and claiming that every opinion aside from yours (which is ALWAYS controversial in the worst sense of it, slanted and often looks like a cheap bait) is "false! Biased! Alliance bias!"?

people are straight up lying about the incident and false about the timelines, going for the fallacy fo appeal of emotion demonizing the horde trying to make then worse than they are, so yeah, its not just false but biased.

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Blizzard Godwined him themselves. Like c'mon, a racial supremacist holed up in a bunker underneath his city as the world comes to claim justice for his crimes, whose followers are SS-esque secret police wielding radical new technologies who rant and rave rhetoric about lesser races, purity of blood, land that should be theirs and world domination, with an Indiana Jones inspires fascination for ancient evil artifacts? The only way they could have made the True Horde more Nazi is by having them goose stepping around the place and run death camps, albeit Sylvanas picked up the slack there later on.

the thing with Garrosh "godwined" only happened in MOP, and by the half trough the end, not before, like people claimed

people were claiming Garrosh start the war and invaded ashenvale because he is hitler and everything that happened since vanilla is their fault.

[DeltrusDisc]

Ashenvale was the primary cause of Alliance and Horde's tensions in Kalimdor -- Durotar and Orgrimmar lacked the essential resources to sustain their population properly after the Third War, and the night elves seemed less than willing to provide them. It has been a major point of conflict -- in the original game, Cataclysm, in the Fourth War, etc.

As far as we know, Tyrande giving Azshara to the Horde was able to guarantee at least several years of peace, as the Horde abandoned most of their outposts in Ashenvale.

What if Tyrande and her night elves just gave the orcs half their territory? Would that have settled tensions between them permanently, and perhaps even averted or settled the Alliance-Horde faction conflict once and for all?

The Orcs are mindless dogs who only know conflict and taking that which isn't their own.

They would keep wanting more until there's nothing left to give.

[Tanaria]

Elves love forests, even the most arcane ones amongst the night elves, are written to build beautiful cities of arcane and nature magic combined.. andt he themee is consistent from druid, to mage centred sides of the elves, even in the high elves and blood elves - lots of forests. Elves love nature, care for it, etc, Orcs, well, it's a nuisance, and it's best use is to provide lumber for building or burning cook fires.
.

Actually, the high elves and blood elves don't "love" nature. Eversong Forest isn't natural because of the first Highborne of Quel'Thalas enchanted the region into a timelocked, eternal spring. Eversong has been the way we see it in-game, for over 7000 years.

It's not a "love" for nature.

they would ALWAYS clash with the elves. And only under the most dire of circumstances can I see elves and orcs working together, like the Blood elves had to do thanks to Kael'thas or like they've had to in recent wars.

The Blood Elves willingly worked with their Horde allies and have achieved much by doing so.

When the Amani threat was building again, it was thanks to the Blood Elves' allegiance with the Darkspear, that they were able to know the inner workings of the Amani Trolls and bring them low. Vereesa's High Elves knew the landmass, but not the inner workings of the Amani - this was knowledge the Darkspear had, which they wouldn't have had, if the Blood Elves were on the Alliance.

Blood Elves were also being kicked and pushed around by the Alliance. Humans, Night Elves and Dwarves pushed them to the Horde and only once, did they consider rejoining the Alliance. Hell, the Tauren are way more out of place on the Horde. Blood Elves working with the Orcs was thanks to the Alliance. Humans started it in W3 (and they truly did as Illidan and his forces worked with the Orcs on Outland), Night Elves and Dwarves sealed the deal.
Baine Bloodhoof was the main reason why I chose to side with Sylvanas in BFA, for some of my toons. The Tauren (both) should be on the Alliance, whilst the Horde gain Ogres and San'layn.

[Syegfryed]

The Blood Elves willingly worked with their Horde allies and have achieved much by doing so.

When the Amani threat was building again, it was thanks to the Blood Elves' allegiance with the Darkspear, that they were able to know the inner workings of the Amani Trolls and bring them low. Vereesa's High Elves knew the landmass, but not the inner workings of the Amani - this was knowledge the Darkspear had, which they wouldn't have had, if the Blood Elves were on the Alliance.

Blood Elves were also being kicked and pushed around by the Alliance. Humans, Night Elves and Dwarves pushed them to the Horde and only once, did they consider rejoining the Alliance. Hell, the Tauren are way more out of place on the Horde. Blood Elves working with the Orcs was thanks to the Alliance. Humans started it in W3 (and they truly did as Illidan and his forces worked with the Orcs on Outland), Night Elves and Dwarves sealed the deal.
Baine Bloodhoof was the main reason why I chose to side with Sylvanas in BFA, for some of my toons. The Tauren (both) should be on the Alliance, whilst the Horde gain Ogres and San'layn.

no for san'layn, and while you are right about most of the thigns respects to blood elves, you should not assume a leader equal the people, taurens are not baine

Taurens are more ruthless and violent than people give credit for, they are not soft and cowards like baine, and they do not belong to alliance.

[Tanaria]

no for san'layn, and while you are right about most of the thigns respects to blood elves, you should not assume a leader equal the people, taurens are not baine

Taurens are more ruthless and violent than people give credit for, they are not soft and cowards like baine, and they do not belong to alliance.

Ok then.

Execute Baine and Mayla and all their associates - or just put them on the Alliance. I mean, both standing next to Anduin in the middle of Stormwind.
Tauren can be ruthless - I can believe that, look at the one from the Classic Cinematic when he attacks the Dwarf Hunters' pet. But at this stage, all they do is cry on Jaina, Anduin or Thrall's shoulder about how horrible the Horde is. If they don't like the Horde, they are free to leave at any point.

Employ somebody with grit. My vote goes to Magatha for the Tauren and Maiev for the Night Elves. That way, we can see Tauren savages vs Night Elf savages, in full prime.

Tyrande, Baine, Mayla and Malfurion are all just annoying, so remove them and employ those with actual grit, claws and fangs.

EDIT: And maybe "no" for San'layn, but Blood Elves should get red eyes that fill both the "Dark Ranger" and "San'layn" fantasy. If I wanted, I could use the tier 10 heroic mage set from ICC and look like a Darkfallen Archmage...or my Hunter can look like a Dark Ranger.

[Soon-TM]

Are you insane? Literally in no time in their history they have ever done that. Night elves always wanted only to be left alone in their woods, not expanding them or wanting any more land.

Only forest in the Barrens i can think about is Overgrowth which was a collective fuckup of a Cenarion Circle mission which btw included tauren.

The entire War of the Shifting Sands, was an attempt by nelfs to expand their territories into regrow Silithus. So theoretically, they could start growing trees anywhere and call it home, unless a stronger force (in this case the Qiraji) drives them back.

[SinR]

and when The Horde slashed and burned their half of Ashenvale and took all of its resources it had to offer, then what?

[VladlTutushkin]

The entire War of the Shifting Sands, was an attempt by nelfs to expand their territories into regrow Silithus. So theoretically, they could start growing trees anywhere and call it home, unless a stronger force (in this case the Qiraji) drives them back.

They were not expanding into land controlled by other nations. Qiraji are old god minions and unlike Nerubians they dont seem to have “independence” or act outside of Old Gods plans.

[Kalisandra]

And the night elfs had no idea what the orcs stances on balance were before they attacked them so that’s irrelevant. They saw people they didn’t know and the first thing that they did was start killing them because they were different.

No, they attacked the the Orcs because the Orcs were in their lands, cutting down their and their allies' homes.

When someone is on your property, hacking down your stuff, you don't generally ask them nicely to please stop, especially when they're there with thugs for security (it's not like the Orcs were just unarmed peons), and they've already killed a bunch of wildlife, some of them your friends. No, you boot them out, with force, and if they resist, you shoot them. Actually, in large parts of our world today, you just shoot them.