Why skilled player got so mad about casual getting better loot?

[Echocho]

What are you talking about? FF14 definitely has pvp. It's super confusing to me though so I don't go near it. Also, the community is not only not toxic but most people will actively try to help you improve if they see you struggling. Meanwhile, people in WoW are more likely to kick you out of the group and tell you to fuck off if you die once to a mechanic.

What I meant was that it's niche. Not a lot of people care about it. No douches outside the main cities strutting around going "duel me brah"

[TheRevenantHero]

What I meant was that it's niche. Not a lot of people care about it. No douches outside the main cities strutting around going "duel me brah"

Yeah exactly. And the people that DO run those modes? They are always willing to help people accomplish it too. Because players in FF14 haven't been given reason to be giant elitists like they are in WoW.

[Daffan]

Shouldn't have to wait until the absolute final patch before we're allowed to have a game.

What????

That's not even the case now, due to patch resets!

Yet as the game has gotten more complex, catering to the 'hardcore' and esport model, long term sub numbers have dropped.

What a joke! This game has more welfare, catchup and patch resets than ever before!

2 can play at that game.

"Ever since WOTLK when they added welfare epics to 5 mans, the subs cratered! Starting right after ICC with that ez 5 man!1111!!!!1111"

Mine is actually legit though

[Echo of Soul]

There can’t be a progression path that suits everyone, it’s just not possible. People in here don’t want to do grouped content because it’s either too difficult or it gets too long to get in a group (99,99% of solo players are not tank or healers for obvious reasons) but a solo path that grants 220 ilvl in the end should have to be both very long and very difficult, things that would lead to further whines. You can now get somewhere between 200 and 205 by simply world questing plus callings plus one leggo at 235 plus all the 226 boe in AH. It seems quite fair to me, honestly, considering that they are all activity with zero difficulty. The AH boe part requires a ton of gold, ok, but farming gold is also a solo experience, it can be interesting and again it’s zero difficulty.

I understand that the desire is reaching max ilvl gear without doing the activities Blizzard thinks are worthy to grant max ilvl gear, but it’s not possible.

It was never possible and it probably never will.

Like I said if you had bothered to read, iLvls doesn't matter. Everyone deserves a progression path that doesn't end after 2 weeks, the quality of the gear is irrelevant.

[Tadkins]

What????

That's not even the case now, due to patch resets!

That is the case, when what a non-competitive player is allowed would only get them smashed in a random BG.

[Feral Druid ist Op]

Time stops them, and other people. Your advices are on the par of telling homeless people "just buy a house".

i would agree with this statement if it still was BC with a single lockout a week, but nowdays you can log in do 1-2 bosses on hc or normal mode a day or 1-2 keys a day, open a grp do stuff and get your gear.
There are no excuses for this lazyness, if you cant invest 1-2hrs a day in a mmo (if you want gear) you may just quit.

[neescher]

If you think that, you definitely don't play the game. A lot of people will be forced into PUGs for various reasons. Most PUGs expect RIDICULOUS item levels to even go near NORMAL raids. Those people who do m+'s? Yeah they have a guild or a dedicated friend group. The majority of the playerbase doesn't have those things and people in LFG care more about speedrunning something than helping people experience the content.

And before you say "Just make your own group", that's a fallacy. I have tried making my own group as a DPS. Know what happened? I didn't have insanely high item level and got NO applications in two hours. I'm not gonna sit around all fucking day hoping to get people in my raid group.

Go to a city, spend 15 minutes in trade chat, and you'll have 10 guilds to choose from. Join a guild, boom problem solved.

NO ONE is locked out of ANYTHING. How to you think other people do it? They just sit there and wait until they randomly get invited? You just have to invest some minimum amount of effort, and you're no longer "locked out" of playing.

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When you lack connections (don't have friends, don't have a guild), aren't the best player to stand out, and are unable to keep up with all of this stuff...

-Download a mess of addons and learn how to work each individual string.
-Learn how to log yourself and analyze them.
-Learn how to sim your gear and naviagate all the complex numbers and variables for optimal performance.
-Watch hours of videos related to the dungeons and raids you want to run, and closely study the streamers playing your chosen class and spec.
-Navigate the increasingly harsh and elitist community trying to find a group of players or a guild you can click with, oftentimes spending hundreds of dollars on server and faction transfer fees.
-Perform perfectly in the dungeons when you run them the first time, otherwise you're considered selfish because how dare you waste someone's time by making a mistake and wiping while trying to learn.

...you are essentially locked out of the content.

See my answer above to the other person.

You don't need to do ANY of the things you mentioned. There are plenty of casual guilds out there that just play casual content for fun, that requires none of your list.

[casualbuster]

we are casuals getting good loot

[neescher]

Because the WoW community has become a whole bunch of people that think it's good to talk shit on players that don't play the game they want them to play it. These are players that would prefer to see the game shut down than have anything "cater to casuals". What they don't realize is that the casuals are the reason the game is still going. the more they push for accessibility to be removed, the more likely the game will die.

It's not that other people talk shit on players that don't play the way they want. It's that people who make an effort and play difficult content that needs a lot of coordination between 20 players talk shit on players who play 20 minutes of trivial difficulty content per day and want the same rewards.

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Actually yes. Mythic guilds will very often carry people in the their guild. I've seen it happen a lot and I've had a lot of friends who only saw mythic because their guild carried them after they had it on farm. Based on your comments, I don't believe you even for a second that you've gone through mythic Denathria while only playing 5 hours a week. And the fact that you are saying that the only reason people can't clear content is "will, skill, and ability to cooperate" further shows you were carried. Because the majority of the WoW's mythic raiders will expect people to have already done mythic once at least before ever taking them into a raid with them. Your denial of the hardcore community being exceptionally toxic just shows you are either lying about your experience or got carried through mythic.

I mean, how do you argue with a person that responds to "I have done XY" with "I don't believe you, so it's not possible to do XY".

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The Puritan concept of "I did it, so that means everyone can do it" is such a plague on humanity. It belies a complete lack of empathy or understanding that people are different from each other.

That guy didn't say "I did it, so that means everyone can do it". He said "I did it, that means it's possible". Wheres the other person answers "I can't do it, so nobody can do it". How is that any better?

[Tadkins]

Go to a city, spend 15 minutes in trade chat, and you'll have 10 guilds to choose from. Join a guild, boom problem solved.

NO ONE is locked out of ANYTHING. How to you think other people do it? They just sit there and wait until they randomly get invited? You just have to invest some minimum amount of effort, and you're no longer "locked out" of playing.

There is no guarantee that any of those guilds are going to be a good fit. In fact I'd argue it's very unlikely someone is going to find their "forever home" in a random trade chat guild. I actively avoid those for that reason. I don't think it's a lot to ask for a guild with a little...substance to it.

It's not that other people talk shit on players that don't play the way they want. It's that people who make an effort and play difficult content that needs a lot of coordination between 20 players talk shit on players who play 20 minutes of trivial difficulty content per day and want the same rewards.

None of us are asking for the same rewards. I can agree that it's silly to earn a 226 mythic piece from doing a simple world quest. I'm just asking for rewards that are slightly better than what we're allowed to have, slowly earned to give us a sense of progression throughout the patch cycle so we're not hopelessly stuck and at the mercy of literally everyone in the open world and in a random BG. The BfA system for PvP gear was perfect in that regard.

[Feral Druid ist Op]

What separates you is that you're likely lying based on all your other toxic comments. You will clearly go to any lengths to prove that "dogshit players" are the real issue and not elitist gatekeeping attitudes like yours. Just because you're incapable of admitting you're wrong doesn't mean I don't have a point. You're just saying that because it doesn't fit your narrative. The game IS dying. Less and less people are playing the game. There's more and more threads talking about this very topic. Why would someone pay $15 a month for a game that is giving them next to no way to realistically increase their character's power? Why pay monthly for a game that tells you that you MUST do this specific content or never get gear? The fact that you think accessibility is the issue and not toxic mindsets is big part of the problem in modern WoW.

who will fucking gatekeep you from your own grp? jesus christ thats not fun anymore, what kind of mental attitude is this? want to push a key? press (I) que your key and play it same goes for raids want to raid press (I) open a raid and play

[neescher]

There is no guarantee that any of those guilds are going to be a good fit. In fact I'd argue it's very unlikely someone is going to find their "forever home" in a random trade chat guild. I actively avoid those for that reason. I don't think it's a lot to ask for a guild with a little...substance to it.

There are better ways to find guilds, but it might take a bit more time. You can also use the guild browser. I think using trade chat is okay, you can usually immediately spot the bad/kiddie guilds, but there are also "normal"/casual guilds looking for members, at least on my realm.

None of us are asking for the same rewards. I can agree that it's silly to earn a 226 mythic piece from doing a simple world quest. I'm just asking for rewards that are slightly better than what we're allowed to have, slowly earned to give us a sense of progression throughout the patch cycle so we're not hopelessly stuck and at the mercy of literally everyone in the open world and in a random BG. The BfA system for PvP gear was perfect in that regard.

And that's fine. But just understand, the exact same problem exists for all levels of players. Heroic raiders like me also are stuck on progression right now. Same thing for mythic raiders. The game just needs a content patch now, because many players have plateaued in their progression.

[Tadkins]

There are better ways to find guilds, but it might take a bit more time. You can also use the guild browser. I think using trade chat is okay, you can usually immediately spot the bad/kiddie guilds, but there are also "normal"/casual guilds looking for members, at least on my realm.

I've had success using guild recruitment forums, and one time on the server forum when I couldn't afford to transfer at the time. I don't always get bites, which is why I don't take guilds for granted and why I'm appreciative of being able to have a game even during those "in-between guild" periods. But I take every guild I join seriously and I invest time, money, and emotional energy into them. Just a leftover of my time back during the EverQuest days I suppose, but that's how I am and it's why it genuinely stings when it doesn't work out and I gotta repeat the cycle over again.

I don't think many would disagree that random mass-invite guilds aren't the way to go though.

And that's fine. But just understand, the exact same problem exists for all levels of players. Heroic raiders like me also are stuck on progression right now. Same thing for mythic raiders. The game just needs a content patch now, because many players have plateaued in their progression.

As a heroic raider though you're basically one step below the top of the food chain. You can take your heroic gear, even if you aren't progressing to mythic, and use that to go have fun PvPing or go cut through WQs and other things for all the various cosmetic stuff. Meanwhile someone who isn't getting to raid or M+ is stuck at the bottom, and is at the mercy of everything in the world. Whether that's enemy players in PvP, the mobs in the open world, and the players subjecting you to harsh raiderio/log/etc standards. That's not a good feeling. I feel like when I come back, I'm not really going to be allowed to queue for battlegrounds because at 190-200 I'm not really going to get to do anything but die. And when there's no way to climb out of that, it feels hopeless.

Without an actual system change to be more friendly toward players like me, all a patch is going to do is raise the caps of everything and it will be the exact same situation.

[Osmeric]

The Puritan concept of "I did it, so that means everyone can do it" is such a plague on humanity. It belies a complete lack of empathy or understanding that people are different from each other.

H. L. Mencken defined puritanism as "the haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.”

Gaming puritanism is the haunting fear that someone, somewhere may be getting more than they deserve.

[neescher]

You can take your heroic gear, even if you aren't progressing to mythic, and use that to go have fun PvPing or go cut through WQs and other things for all the various cosmetic stuff. Meanwhile someone who isn't getting to raid or M+ is stuck at the bottom, and is at the mercy of everything in the world.

I don't do PvP so I can't comment on that, but my ilvl 200 holy priest can do WQs just fine without heroic gear. It might not be as fast as it is on my main, but holy priest is arguably the spec with the worst damage in the game, so if I had a real dps spec it would be a lot faster

[Tadkins]

I don't do PvP so I can't comment on that, but my ilvl 200 holy priest can do WQs just fine without heroic gear. It might not be as fast as it is on my main, but holy priest is arguably the spec with the worst damage in the game, so if I had a real dps spec it would be a lot faster

Fair enough. It would just be kind of demoralizing to know that guy gets to do 3 WQs in the time it takes you to do 1.

But yup random BGs are the one thing I've consistently enjoyed in every expansion so being allowed to have fun in those is the one major thing I'm concerned about, and those do require gear.

[chiddie]

Both were awesome. Why can't we have those back?


Shouldn't have to wait until the absolute final patch before we're allowed to have a game.



Very true. Plenty of skilled casual players out there getting cutting edge playing 3 hours a week or some such. Meanwhile people like me are on the opposite spectrum, playing 8-12 hours a day but struggling to join a M+ or heroic raid, and yes occasionally flubs their rotation. I don't really use the word "casual" on myself as I was super heavily into this game at one point.


I don't think this is the case. Lots of toxic folks out there, even if they might be at the lower end, that's still plenty of toxicity we're having to deal with and not everyone's going to have the skill to climb out and play with the "good folks".

I genuinely wish Blizzard would crack down on some of the worst of the worst. I like that FF attempts to make their game friendlier and as non-competitive as possible and it's why I'm currently considering it.



Fair enough. I do wonder what a smaller RP server like The Scryers would be like. I have no first hand experience but there would be a lot of factors to consider. Guilds available, what kind of RP goes on, what is the AH like, would I be griefed by the nearby Moon Guard metropolis, etc etc?

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I could earn 460 gear in BfA very slowly on my own (and even higher once I learned how to master 5 mask horrific visions) while the best of the best were earning 475. I was happy with that. What was wrong with that?

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...Thank you. Thank you so much for this.

I already made a question: the 460 free gear vs 475 max gear thing was quite late in the expansion. What was the difference in power between noratedpvp/nomythicraid/nohighlevelM+ and top gear in BfA S1?

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Like I said if you had bothered to read, iLvls doesn't matter. Everyone deserves a progression path that doesn't end after 2 weeks, the quality of the gear is irrelevant.

It does end in two weeks if you play 90 hours a day. That’s exactly why I said that there’s no progression path that can suit everyone.

For people who pushed M+ at the beginning of S1 progression path ended somewhere in January, while I have yet to get to get KSM.

You just can’t make everyone happy because you cannot control people’s playtime.

[T-34]

Actually yes. Mythic guilds will very often carry people in the their guild. I've seen it happen a lot and I've had a lot of friends who only saw mythic because their guild carried them after they had it on farm. Based on your comments, I don't believe you even for a second that you've gone through mythic Denathria while only playing 5 hours a week. And the fact that you are saying that the only reason people can't clear content is "will, skill, and ability to cooperate" further shows you were carried. Because the majority of the WoW's mythic raiders will expect people to have already done mythic once at least before ever taking them into a raid with them. Your denial of the hardcore community being exceptionally toxic just shows you are either lying about your experience or got carried through mythic.

Hmm, I wonder how all in my raid got Cutting Edge when we killed Denathrius. I mean that should be impossible if we got carried right?

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The Puritan concept of "I did it, so that means everyone can do it" is such a plague on humanity. It belies a complete lack of empathy or understanding that people are different from each other.

Nobody here claims that everybody can do it. What people say here is that your progress in-game is limited by your gaming skills, your dedication (will and time) and your ability to co-operate with other people (how you perform in a group).

The vast majority of WoWs player-base is limited in one or more of those factors:
Some refuse to interact with other people. They are out because the hardest content requires you to interact and group up with other players.
Some lack gaming skills or don't want to improve. They have a natural ceiling of content they can do.
Some lack time and/or dedication. If such people have very good gaming and social skills then they are still able to do most content in-game.

[Daffan]

H. L. Mencken defined puritanism as "the haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.”

Gaming puritanism is the haunting fear that someone, somewhere may be getting more than they deserve.

Except in this MULTIPLAYER game, what Blizzard does to cater for one party will affect another.

[Crimson Spears]

Except in this MULTIPLAYER game, what Blizzard does to cater for one party will affect another.

You are trying to explain to locus that eating all the grain will kill everyone. I don't think the locus care.