{TV} The Falcon and the Winter Soldier

[PACOX]

- I know you Americans are loving it right now but I'm not digging all the racial angles. Yes, the world has racism. No, white people don't hate black people so much that they'd literally throw the only super soldier left in prison just because he's black. That was so stupid lmao. Like World War 2 just finished, Steve is dead, we're all normal people... but wait, we have a super soldier just as strong and fast as Captain America. So what are we gonna' do? Ask him to help us fight the good fight? Nah, let's throw him in jail because we hate black people.

If you are not American then why comment on American things you don't understand? You obviously don't know about the history of black soldiers or American society to make that comment. It's less about explicit hate and America's history of treating people of color as second class citizens despite being just as American as whites.

Experimentation happened, just not with a super soldier serum of course.

Being sent on one-way missions happened.

Not receiving the same recognition, accolades, status, respect as their white comrades happened.

Again, Marvel typically uses social commentary to come up with plotlines. Bradley represents the stories of black soldiers who fought in the world wars and Vietnam.

[starstationprofm]

If you are not American then why comment on American things you don't understand? You obviously don't know about the history of black soldiers or American society to make that comment. It's less about explicit hate and America's history of treating people of color as second class citizens despite being just as American as whites.

Experimentation happened, just not with a super soldier serum of course.

Being sent on one-way missions happened.

Not receiving the same recognition, accolades, status, respect as their white comrades happened.

Again, Marvel typically uses social commentary to come up with plotlines. Bradley represents the stories of black soldiers who fought in the world wars and Vietnam.

Then they shouldn't have made him a supersoldier because considering how much they emphasised the importance and strength of super soldiers it's entirely unrealistic that the US would throw away such an asset just because the guy is black.

If you are not American then why comment on American things you don't understand?

Unless you know of a real life super soldier it's not an American thing. It's just a TV show doing very on the nose social commentary that I found unrealistic.

Yes, racism is bad and happens. No, they wouldn't have jailed him just for being black. Even the fucking Nazi had the Red Skull as their general or whatever. And I'm supposed to believe Hitler accepted the Red Skull but the big bad American racists jailed Isaiah? Yeah right.

[PACOX]

Then they shouldn't have made him a supersoldier because considering how much they emphasised the importance and strength of super soldiers it's entirely unrealistic that the US would throw away such an asset just because the guy is black.



Unless you know of a real life super soldier it's not an American thing. It's just a TV show doing very on the nose social commentary that I found unrealistic.

Yes, racism is bad and happens. No, they wouldn't have jailed him just for being black. Even the fucking Nazi had the Red Skull as their general or whatever. And I'm supposed to believe Hitler accepted the Red Skull but the big bad American racists jailed Isaiah? Yeah right.

Yeah I'm just going to mute your like the other guy because you are on some clown shit.

Trolling isn't allowed. Infracted.

[Darththeo]

Then they shouldn't have made him a supersoldier because considering how much they emphasised the importance and strength of super soldiers it's entirely unrealistic that the US would throw away such an asset just because the guy is black.

They literally do. In real life throw away useful assets all the time. They saw Bradley as either a failure or a freak occurrence who was better off in R&D

[Endus]

Then they shouldn't have made him a supersoldier because considering how much they emphasised the importance and strength of super soldiers it's entirely unrealistic that the US would throw away such an asset just because the guy is black.



Unless you know of a real life super soldier it's not an American thing. It's just a TV show doing very on the nose social commentary that I found unrealistic.

Yes, racism is bad and happens. No, they wouldn't have jailed him just for being black. Even the fucking Nazi had the Red Skull as their general or whatever. And I'm supposed to believe Hitler accepted the Red Skull but the big bad American racists jailed Isaiah? Yeah right.

Your entire argument is predicated on an assumption that people in MCU's world wouldn't behave exactly like people really do in the real world.

Which is a ridiculous premise.

[ketsui]

Then they shouldn't have made him a supersoldier because considering how much they emphasised the importance and strength of super soldiers it's entirely unrealistic that the US would throw away such an asset just because the guy is black.



Unless you know of a real life super soldier it's not an American thing. It's just a TV show doing very on the nose social commentary that I found unrealistic.

Yes, racism is bad and happens. No, they wouldn't have jailed him just for being black. Even the fucking Nazi had the Red Skull as their general or whatever. And I'm supposed to believe Hitler accepted the Red Skull but the big bad American racists jailed Isaiah? Yeah right.

Why is this April 2021 racist still getting people to converse with him?

Trolling isn't allowed. Infracted.

[Dain6foot8]

Overall a good show.
Sixth episode was decent, but some aspect of it was a little bit weird, and too over the top.
What is up with Walker? He just suddenly becomes this stable person again, and decides to help out, and Sam/Bucky just accepts it at face value?

And then you have the scene where he carries the girl(don't remember the name), and then he has a political chat with ACTUAL politicians in the middle of the street, making it seem like he has some good points. It boils down to him saying "Just make it better!", instead of what that one politician says "It's extremely complex". They could've cut that WHOLE scene out, and to me the episode would've been better.
They also went REALLY heavy on the "look, I am black" aspect, which I feel they could've dialed a little bit back, and not done it so over the top on that last episode.


I did like the scene towards the end, where he makes sure to honor Isaiah and what he contributed.
Sam also makes for a very nice Captain America, so I'm glad they went with him in the end!

That's the strange thing to me, if you step back from the emotional tones added on top of what Walker actually did, he was portrayed in a muuuuch darker way than say Karli(who did arguably far worse things, she just didn't have a "Shield" to disparrage by doing so). I understand the imaging issues of what Walker did, the symbolic issues, but honestly, his turn around wasn't a surprise for me, because he didn't have as far to go back from as Karli. I understand the characters in universe having some issues with it, but it worked for me.

Now Sam playing semantics on the word 'terrorist' made this contrast even weirder and almost ruined the episode for me. Karli is given a lighter view, in contrast to Walker...it just feels, well, weird. Like, it actually feels a little immoral to me that the(admittedly violent) death of one of Karli's teammates for emotional revenge is cause to condemn Walker(and have the whole scene played out like he despises Walker), yet Karli killing prisoners and threatening to continue to escalate beyond her goals is something he has to bend over backwards to redeem. Look, I like Steve and the Shield, but holy cow, that is moral favoritism. Walker was mentally broken and falling apart at the seams. Karli was sliding headfirst, willfully, into villainy.

[starstationprofm]

Your entire argument is predicated on an assumption that people in MCU's world wouldn't behave exactly like people really do in the real world.

Which is a ridiculous premise.

People in the real world would leap at the chance of having a supersoldier.

Also the literal Nazi accepted Schmidt and made him a top guy even though he looked like a pizza. And you're telling me the Americans are worse than the Nazi? No, I cannot believe such a ridiculous scenario.

Good that you can, for me it's on-the-nose bullshit.

Infracted.

[Adamas102]

People in the real world would leap at the chance of having a supersoldier.

Also the literal Nazi accepted Schmidt even though he looked like a pizza. And you're telling me the Americans are worse?

He wasn't seen as a person, much less a super soldier. He, like the rest of the men who were forced into the program, were considered lab rats. The point is very explicitly made that the people behind the tests picked African Americans NOT because they wanted to make a black super soldier, but because they needed bodies to experiment on and in their eyes these men (ALL OF THEM) were expendable. The fact that it worked on Isaiah and he managed to put the serum to use on missions didn't make him any more a person in their eyes, just a resource.

The fact that you can't wrap your mind around the idea of someone not being considered a person and afforded their basic human rights strictly based on their skin color is probably a good thing, but that was a reality whether you like it or not.

[eschatological]

-snip-

She risked the serum by leading Zemo, literally a guy who hates and has tried to destroy all super soldiers in the past, to the lab of the scientist who recreated the first stable version of it since WW2.

For that matter, why even put the bounty on Sam and Bucky in the first place...just so she can save them and insert herself? She coulda just walked out of the shadows and Sam/Bucky would've been like "OMG SHARON good to see you!!!" I'm telling you, it makes very little sense.

[Faltemer]

Keep discussions on topic, don't insult others, and don't discuss forbidden topics or more infractions will go out.

[segara82]

She risked the serum by leading Zemo, literally a guy who hates and has tried to destroy all super soldiers in the past, to the lab of the scientist who recreated the first stable version of it since WW2.

For that matter, why even put the bounty on Sam and Bucky in the first place...just so she can save them and insert herself? She coulda just walked out of the shadows and Sam/Bucky would've been like "OMG SHARON good to see you!!!" I'm telling you, it makes very little sense.

Yeah, i agree.
To me it seems that the scrapped epidemic-story left too many wholes for the writers to fill on such short notice.

A few thigs just seemed forced/clichéd to me:
Sam being so lenient with Karli (not just to de-escalate things but even when away from her) but constantly busting Buckies balls, a guy who fought with him against the Mad Titan? So that was there just we have that troped not-so-buddy-cop-thing.

Using black people to create super-soldiers but then waste them because racism?
If i were a racist i would do what the US goverment did do: Use them to test diseases and cures for those, like in the Tuskegee Syphilis study.
When you run a SSS experiment you do it like in the first Cap movie: volunteers of 'your' guys. Because you do not want to risk 'one of them' to become a super soldier and become a symbol of power or freedom/resistance.
Yes, i know that Isaiah is canon in comics and now the MCU, but in FatWS the drama was cranked up to a 10. Just compare what is said in the show to the comics.
https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Isaia...ey_(Earth-616)

and the speech, oh that speech.
They really tried to ram just all the clichés possible into that one.

[Endus]

She risked the serum by leading Zemo, literally a guy who hates and has tried to destroy all super soldiers in the past, to the lab of the scientist who recreated the first stable version of it since WW2.

That scientist had already produced functioning serum. His process worked. I have to assume Sharon had already decided he wasn't needed any more because she could replicate the stuff without him now, and that's why she used the boys to tie off a loose end.

For that matter, why even put the bounty on Sam and Bucky in the first place...just so she can save them and insert herself?

Puts them under pressure and makes them need a friend, which she immediately provides them with. Like, literally within moments. The only people who could catch on in that time frame were whatever dingbat street trash were in the immediate area, which she and they could handle.

She coulda just walked out of the shadows and Sam/Bucky would've been like "OMG SHARON good to see you!!!" I'm telling you, it makes very little sense.

But they might've asked more questions about what she was doing there and how well-off she was, if they weren't reliant on her goodwill to survive "the wrath of the Power Broker". She was their lifeline out, so they weren't about to question her.

Plus, by the end, it's super clear she keeps her identity as the Power Broker under wraps. Everyone knows the Broker exists, but nobody knows who the Broker is. It's not like she can just tell them she runs Madripoor, a city known for its criminality, and they'll still trust her like they end up doing.

- - - Updated - - -

Using black people to create super-soldiers but then waste them because racism?
If i were a racist i would do what the US goverment did do: Use them to test diseases and cures for those, like in the Tuskegee Syphilis study.

That's literally what they were doing.

The prototype SSS they were using on Bradley and his buddies were all experimental variants, trying to find a stable method, since Erskine's was lost. That stuff was poison and it killed everyone it got given to. Except Bradley.

They were tossing these guys into suicide missions to test their performance before they died, and once they realized Bradley wasn't going to die, that's when they put him in a cage and experimented on him for 30 years, like an animal.

It was about creating a stable product they could use on "real" subjects, and Bradley and his fellows were just lab rats that were never expected to survive the experimental process.

[segara82]

That's literally what they were doing.

The prototype SSS they were using on Bradley and his buddies were all experimental variants, trying to find a stable method, since Erskine's was lost. That stuff was poison and it killed everyone it got given to. Except Bradley.

They were tossing these guys into suicide missions to test their performance before they died, and once they realized Bradley wasn't going to die, that's when they put him in a cage and experimented on him for 30 years, like an animal.

It was about creating a stable product they could use on "real" subjects, and Bradley and his fellows were just lab rats that were never expected to survive the experimental process.

And IMHO it makes no sense for a real racist to do that.
By using undesireable people as the guniea pigs to create the SSS you risk creating a new super soldier or several. Who will then run roughshod over the whole experiment and become symbols of resistance. The MCU Nazis did not run those experiments in their concentration camps, the US military not in their relocation camps for Asian Americans, they ran them on their most dedicated boys to boost them, not a potential enemy.

I know that the writers were inspired by the Tuskegee experiment. But the victims were mostly rural african americans from poor communities, and the soutcome of those experiments were ranging from treatsment for a disease to death of an undesirable person. Not armed and trained soldiers, with potential threats to national security or jeopardizing an entire theatre of war.

[xezar]

Personally I liked Walker the best, Wyatt Russel is a pretty awesome actor and he did the role well. Can't say I blame him for crushing the one dude in episode 4, I'd have done the same in a fit of rage after having your best friend kill. Not everyone has to be Steve Rogers in this world. Zemo was great as well.

Overall the one arc I didn't care for was Sharon; I didn't care for her much to begin with from the movies, and now she's just a traitor. Guess the next Captain America movie will deal with that loose end.

[qwerty123456]

And IMHO it makes no sense for a real racist to do that.
By using undesireable people as the guniea pigs to create the SSS you risk creating a new super soldier or several. Who will then run roughshod over the whole experiment and become symbols of resistance. The MCU Nazis did not run those experiments in their concentration camps, the US military not in their relocation camps for Asian Americans, they ran them on their most dedicated boys to boost them, not a potential enemy.

I know that the writers were inspired by the Tuskegee experiment. But the victims were mostly rural african americans from poor communities, and the soutcome of those experiments were ranging from treatsment for a disease to death of an undesirable person. Not armed and trained soldiers, with potential threats to national security or jeopardizing an entire theatre of war.

Yeah I agree with you. Just look at how in real life they didn't even want the Tuskegee Airmen to pilot planes. Black people had to push to let them be pilots. Would they really have risked creating super black people even if it meant most died? Also the formula came from the Nazi's. Why would they think that the Nazi's would create a super soldier formula that would work on anyone other than their "perfect race". And you already know it worked perfectly on a blonde haired blue eyed(I think) white boy why not try and replicate the test subjects too?

I understand they are trying to stick close to the comics which is good but its kinda silly imo just like Sam not getting a fucking helmet. You use a shield to block most of your body from damage but you still need to see which is why you wear a god damn helmet. He's basically asking to get headshot. He really should have gotten a badass helmet and kept the rest of the suit more like the comics.

Bringing up forbidden topics isn't allowed. Infracted.

[Logwyn]

And IMHO it makes no sense for a real racist to do that.
By using undesireable people as the guniea pigs to create the SSS you risk creating a new super soldier or several. Who will then run roughshod over the whole experiment and become symbols of resistance. The MCU Nazis did not run those experiments in their concentration camps, the US military not in their relocation camps for Asian Americans, they ran them on their most dedicated boys to boost them, not a potential enemy.

I know that the writers were inspired by the Tuskegee experiment. But the victims were mostly rural african americans from poor communities, and the soutcome of those experiments were ranging from treatsment for a disease to death of an undesirable person. Not armed and trained soldiers, with potential threats to national security or jeopardizing an entire theatre of war.

Tuskegee was classism not racism though. Unless you are saying the main players at an African-American institution were racist.

Bringing up forbidden topics isn't allowed. Infracted.

[neocount]

Question - if the person Sharon was talking to on the phone at the end of the last episode was Nick Fury, would what she was saying make sense?

I'm not entirely convinced she's the Power Broker.

[Syegfryed]

That scientist had already produced functioning serum. His process worked. I have to assume Sharon had already decided he wasn't needed any more because she could replicate the stuff without him now, and that's why she used the boys to tie off a loose end.

but she literally said the super soldier is out of the table, why she would say that if she can replicate? its just do more.

i have t agree that this part was a bit of a mess.

[Zaktar]

I understand they are trying to stick close to the comics which is good but its kinda silly imo just like Sam not getting a fucking helmet. You use a shield to block most of your body from damage but you still need to see which is why you wear a god damn helmet. He's basically asking to get headshot. He really should have gotten a badass helmet and kept the rest of the suit more like the comics.

Yeah the lack of helmet was pretty funny. Forget headshots, the guy is zipping around at pretty high speeds and usually leading with his head. I mean it's a good idea to wear a helmet when you're traveling at bicycle speeds...