Why is end game tailored so much against the casual player?

[Tadkins]

Because you don't need higher gear for the content you choose to do.

Except I do because I don't get a choice to fight people my own level.

[Jastall]

They've been doing similar shit since Legion at this point. All the people proclaiming how the numbers are tanking and it's a BIG FAIL, are just shining a light on their own lack of critical thinking skills.

If they continue with X for years on end, they're probably seeing that it works for their bottom line and retention. You might not like it, I sure as fuck don't, but claiming that the strategies are failing as a nobody with zero insight and lots of emotions vs the ones making decisions based on literal numbers, is pathetic. Generally speaking having seen the drivel written throughout the thread, often by the same posters.

I'd say that voting with your wallet works, but I've seen the same inane discussions and sentiments on here for 11 years at this point and the game never went anywhere but forward in its development. Sad as it is.

If SL shows very bad results in the next quarterly, PERHAPS there'll be changes made. But it didn't happen throughout BfA, so why now? Meh... Everyone I know seems to be infatuated for some reason. Each to their own.

I'm not a casual player btw, and I feel as if the game's designed against me and my way of playing these past years.

When most people say "design the game for (insert group), what they really do mean 99% of the time is "design the game for me". "Casuals" is such a vast umbrella as to be nearly impossible to actually define (is someone in a 1 day/week Normal/Heroic guild that doesn't have AOTC yet and does +7 dungeons casual? is a 1500 PvPer who does 10 Arena matches and pugs a couple bosses/week? Is a casual only someone who picks herbs and farms mogs? Who tf knows), and so conveniently it's easy to define "casual" as "myself" and thus say Blizzard doesn't design the game for said casuals.

Conveniently this also serves the opposite, "casuals" can easily be defined as the enemy by some of more hardcore players and thus "catering to the casuals" can be the source of all humanity's woes. This game just has so many different demographics that are constantly at war with each other.

There's a lot of me-too followings there as well. Popular Youtubers read the room and start shitting on the game again when the honeymoon phase of the xpack is over, leading to more people parroting their views about how WoW is dying and (current expansion) is the worst ever because X. I believe it's called a feedback loop.

[rhorle]

Except I do because I don't get a choice to fight people my own level.

An equal item level wouldn't help you so that doesn't matter.

[Tadkins]

An equal item level wouldn't help you so that doesn't matter.

It would still be a fair fight.

You'd probably be okay with LeBron James competing in high school basketball games.

[rhorle]

It would still be a fair fight. You'd probably be okay with LeBron James competing in high school basketball games.

How would it be a fair fight when you've admitted you struggle playing your chosen class? If you have that level of skill why are you not pugging for better PvP gear? And you are the type of person that plays high school sports but demands a NBA contract. But hey you really are a NBA level player it is just the game that keeps you down. Right?

[Tadkins]

How would it be a fair fight when you've admitted you struggle playing your chosen class?

If gear levels were even, then it would come down to skill, and any losses or deaths I take would be entirely on me. That is fair.

[arr0gance]

I don't think people want new things. They want new dungeons and raids not systems or half baked attempted content like warfronts or torghast. Blizzard has had successes... i dont think many people would complain about getting another mage tower this expansion. I see only positives from improving transmog by letting you split shoulders apart for new outfits.

Thanks for letting us know what you think people want from this game. Sadly, you have no fucking idea what people actually think and smugly assuming your opinion is shared by a majority is peak arrogance. (Trust me on that last one, I know a thing or two about it.)

People are tired of having blizzard try and force feed its audience a new feature they clearly have no interest in. The wow community isnt unpredictable look at covenants. The player base who did more then lfr clearly and concisely pointed out the problems with the system and were ignored and to what gain?

A delayed expansion and a system where 90% roughly of a spec are all the same covenant now.

You're assuming that everybody choosing the same covenant is a bad thing. You're taking the minority of opinions shared on this forum as an indisputable reflection of the playerbase at large. This forum is a terrible source for anything other than entertainment. It's a wasteland of negativity. Blizzard could cure cancer and two thirds of the comments would be shit like, "LOL cure cancer but can't balance Covenants/classes KEKW" It's the same zero IQ takes that have existed since the beginning of time. Every new system they introduce: "wtf blizz, wut r u thinking?" then it disappears and without fail, the same fucking people say, "hey ne1 else miss that system we used to bitch about?" It's boring.

[rhorle]

If gear levels were even, then it would come down to skill, and any losses or deaths I take would be entirely on me. That is fair.

So the only fair solution is giving you all of the best gear for no effort? It is funny though how you've abandoned all your other ridiculous claims to now focus solely on item level. And how it is really item level holding you back from being able to defeat others in PvP.

[Tadkins]

So the only fair solution is giving you all of the best gear for no effort?

Never said that, been saying this whole time I'd like to be able to earn conquest gear slowly over a patch like I was able to in BfA, but whatever lies you need to come up with to trash me, I guess. You're not the first on this forum to do so.

While you're digging up other posts I've made though, you should bring this one up.

Weirdly enough I do okay in random PvP. I played an arcane build that gave me tons of mobility and escape options and it was fun kiting everything from one end of the battleground to the other. But this was in BfA where I could have a decent level of gear.

[rhorle]

Never said that, been saying this whole time I'd like to be able to earn conquest gear slowly over a patch like I was able to in BfA, but whatever lies you need to come up with to trash me, I guess. You're not the first on this forum to do so. While you're digging up other posts I've made though, you should bring this one up.

So you want to be a punching bag for most of the expansion because for a small part you'll have gear? That doesn't really mesh with everything you keep saying. I'm not coming up with any lies to trash. The only difference here is you see 200 item level as terrible gear when it is still a decent level of gear. It just isn't the highest level of gear so you keep calling it garbage.

You want to earn the highest level of gear slowly over an expansion with out having to do the content that rewards that highest level of gear. Why do you deserve the reward if you are not doing the content that rewards it? Why not be content with the rewards from the content you are willing to do? Oh right. The game and/or community is toxic and it is impossible for you to find groups or guilds to play with. You come up with your own lies based on how many excuses you've used in this discussion alone.

If gear is that important to you why not buy a boost? It will solve all your problems and you'll be on the even playing field.

[cparle87]

There's 197 covenant pieces and 194 WQ pieces once your renown is high enough. That's more than generous enough for people who don't want to do any kind of multiplayer in a multiplayer game. Hell, it's higher than most of LFR, reg mythic, and low keys. I'd say that's quite generous.

[Tadkins]

So you want to be a punching bag for most of the expansion because for a small part you'll have gear? That doesn't really mesh with everything you keep saying. I'm not coming up with any lies to trash. The only difference here is you see 200 item level as terrible gear when it is still a decent level of gear. It just isn't the highest level of gear so you keep calling it garbage.

I'm currently unsubbed, so I am not being a punching bag right now. I'd love to be able to come back to the game one day once the devs stop treating players like me like garbage, though.

You want to earn the highest level of gear slowly over an expansion with out having to do the content that rewards that highest level of gear. Why do you deserve the reward if you are not doing the content that rewards it?

Why wasn't it a problem in BfA? I did the content that awarded decent gear, I worked toward it, made sure I won each day and capped my conquest. I'm just asking for that back.

[Doffen]

You can replace forced with mandatory and its the same. Its all in people's heads.

I rather go with:

Optional. Now thats a nice word.

[Glorious Leader]

Because you don't need higher gear for the content you choose to do. .

When you run a raid in the ptr the developers scale your player power to whatever appropriate level they feel is good for the raid. Basically they have the ability to remove the need for gear entirely from this game and they did that for pvp for a couple of expansions. Participation tanked. because it's not about need and quite frankly has never been. I'd very much like to see a world where raiding didn't reward gear... it would satisfy nobody

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I rather go with:

Optional. Now thats a nice word.

It always was.

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Honestly I am just fatigued from every piece of content tying itself to mythic

Evidently the world.revolves around mythic raiding so other people really can't have nice things. Theirs a real easy solution for this though. Templates for mythic raiding no loot drops no legendaries you don't "need" gear.

[Doffen]

I'm currently unsubbed, so I am not being a punching bag right now. I'd love to be able to come back to the game one day once the devs stop treating players like me like garbage, though.



Why wasn't it a problem in BfA? I did the content that awarded decent gear, I worked toward it, made sure I won each day and capped my conquest. I'm just asking for that back.

Come on. Devs are treating you like garbage? Its not like they are trying to shit on people or something. I cant go around and say EA are spitting in my face just because none of their games are not to my liking atm.

It is just what it is, you don't like it, then you don't like it. There isn't a big conspiracy around taste and opinion.

[rhorle]

Why wasn't it a problem in BfA? I did the content that awarded decent gear, I worked toward it, made sure I won each day and capped my conquest. I'm just asking for that back.

It took 30 weeks to get all of the 460 rewards from the unranked conquest bar in BfA Season 4. It is coming up on the 22nd week of the expansion. So you wouldn't really have decent gear yet under the BfA Model.

So you were fine being a punching bag or a simpering minion, or whatever else it was you used to describe the feeling for 7.5 months (30 weeks) but can't take it for 22 weeks of Shadowlands? Why not find other people to PvP with if you are that into PvP? There are pugs all the time. Which again references how you want the high end rewards with out having to do the high end work. The gear difference isn't as big of a deal as you make it out to be.

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When you run a raid in the ptr the developers scale your player power to whatever appropriate level they feel is good for the raid. Basically they have the ability to remove the need for gear entirely from this game and they did that for pvp for a couple of expansions. Participation tanked. because it's not about need and quite frankly has never been. I'd very much like to see a world where raiding didn't reward gear... it would satisfy nobody

Duh. They need to test the raid mechanics for the desired tuning. They don't need to test the gearing up process and they have had the ability to do that stuff for decades. Of course it is about the need and how people feel the need X gear when they really do not. If you aren't raiding and only doing random battlegrounds you don't need higher then 200 item level. Could you want it? Sure. But then you should be required to do the activities that grant that increased power.

If raiding didn't reward gear then character power would just shift to something else. And everyone would just get jealous and demand they be given that source of character power. Also it is a bit silly to want to see a game where you admit no one would be satisified. Why not just stop playing and/or discussing the game at that point?

[dproject]

Because that is the nature of the game, any games actually. If it fully caters the casual mindset then the game becomes very dull and boring

[Lolites]

The multiple raid difficulties, the welfare epics, LFG, LFR, world quests are all things they did for the casuals.

Hell even M+ is a boon for casuals,

and for majority of people that improved the game tremendously... why the fuck would you complain about that?!
is it bcs you can no longer pretend to be special by getting through single (brain dead easy) difficulty of raid?

btw how the hell can you complain about no longer having single difficulty and then complain people from other activities get easy gear, like raiders did BEFORE the multiple difficulties?!
without multiple raid difficulties pvp would give the same ilvl and M+, if it existed, too... and if not, if we only have the raid with single difficulty as PVE endgame it would be like in classic - everyone and they grandma would have best gear for NO GODDAMN WORK...

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It's not only not the highest, but it's laughably low, with no hope of ever progressing any better. I get my 190-200 gear, and then what?

pug normal raid or low M+ keys?
i get 5 chars to ilvls 210-215 via pugging only (4 of them on lower end of performance), if you cant do that its not problem with game but with you... so either you have no skill or terrible personality, or both

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and for peoples saying why blizzard should give high stuff to casual too ? hmm... because we pay the same amount of cash each month for the game ? and we love to see our character going up in power ?

if you use car to only go to work, while your neighbour use it to go around the world should you get the car cheaper? you pay to have the same oportunity, if you dont use it its your problem...

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and before you told us to go in a high guild and go do 1000 hours of pvp or mythic raid, we dont do it, because its a old concept and boring like sh**, blizzard are too lazy actually, they should put a lot of rpg event in the game, a lot of different pve event to actually make the game a real MMORPG, but nah, they too lazy and only love doing nothing more than 1 raid each 3-4 month

soo "blizzard should give me gear bcs i dont like their game"... yeah seems reasonable, you shouldnt definitely go play game you like, you should complain until they fuck up wow for people who like it bcs you dont... goddamn thats one HELL of an ego you have...

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How would it be a fair fight when you've admitted you struggle playing your chosen class? If you have that level of skill why are you not pugging for better PvP gear? And you are the type of person that plays high school sports but demands a NBA contract. But hey you really are a NBA level player it is just the game that keeps you down. Right?

this seems to be on point, from his coments it seems he have no skill and obnoxious personality but its everyone else fault he cant get gear... no wonder he cant get into pugs with that attitude

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There's 197 covenant pieces and 194 WQ pieces once your renown is high enough. That's more than generous enough for people who don't want to do any kind of multiplayer in a multiplayer game. Hell, it's higher than most of LFR, reg mythic, and low keys. I'd say that's quite generous.

right? you can get almost to normal raid ilvls via wq, world boss, and torghast for legendary and people still complain its not alt or casual friendly... wtf?!

[enigma77]

I still don't know who "casuals" are and what they even want. WoW is the least meritocratic it has ever been when the easiest way to get loot is casual RBGs and the great vault. I think the problem is exactly the opposite; WoW isn't meritocratic enough and blizzard are scared to design challenging content because of all the baddies crying on forums. I hoped torghast would be like the mage tower but all the crying from baddies turned it into a joke.

"Casuals" as defined and/or self-identified by people on this forum: Bads who want things handed to them.

Real casuals: People who will never ever post on a forum, sub for a 1 month each new patch and then leave the game.

[cparle87]

right? you can get almost to normal raid ilvls via wq, world boss, and torghast for legendary and people still complain its not alt or casual friendly... wtf?!

I actually forgot about the 207s from world bosses and the 235 leggo.

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"Casuals" as defined and/or self-identified by people on this forum: Bads who want things handed to them.

Real casuals: People who will never ever post on a forum, sub for a 1 month each new patch and then leave the game.

That's pretty much it. Anyone who is on this forum is too invested in the game to be a casual, no matter "I only play 4 hours a week but get AotC" or such.