If the night elves gave half of Ashenvale to the Horde, would there have been peace?

[VladlTutushkin]

I agree with the first bit - saying that an appeasement strategy against the Horde would have worked or that it would even be the duty of the alliance to not fight back is just a valid interpretation of the lore, the themes of the story or the historic paralels that the horde invasions borrow from.

But the second bit, I have a problem with.
Internment camps as a permanent solution are always wrong and the lore very much portrays them as such. They are not prisons where specific war criminals are being imprisoned, they are camps where the entire people of the horde, men, women and children, are being held against their will while having to do slave labor and there is no exit strategy, except for some Alliance members pushing for genocide. Portraying them as some sort of necessary and just punishment instead of the Gulags that they are is ethically wrong and not supported by the story at all.
I'm not saying that the Alliance should just have given them a piece of land and left them alone - they didnt really know about the whole demon blood thing and there was no indication that that wouldnt have just let to the next attemp to wipe out humandkind, but that doesnt make their solution a just one.

(caveat: I am aware that this is a game and I am not actually outraged )

What is other more “humane” method of safely restraining and holding a literal horde of potentially genocidal oversized humanoids?

[cparle87]

On your land.

So if I'm on the property of a vegan they have the right to kill me for eating a deer I hunted on their land?

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"Your planet belongs to us. We will kill you now", feels a lot like forcing their belief on everyone on Azeroth, wouldn't you say?

And about the Horde as a whole... didn't it force it's orcish culture on every race that joined? Warchief, Mak'gorah, the language, Blood Oath. All of these are Orcish traditions and culture and all the other races were forced to adopt them or they couldn't join. And everyone that isn't part of the Horde is an enemy to be killed or subjugated.

Blaming the post-blood curse orcs for the things they did under the curse is kind of crass, isn't it? Even our world has things like diminished capacity and I'd say demonic mind control qualifies. What excuses do the Alliance have for the numerous times they've attacked the Horde besides retaliation? Then again, the Alliance blame the Forsaken for things they did when Scourged so I guess at least they're consistent.

And your entire second paragraph is complete nonsense. How we somehow got from one group killing another for cutting down trees when they're nature nuts and won't let other people harvest lumber is somehow equivalent to cultural exchange and assimilation is beyond me.

[VladlTutushkin]

So if I'm on the property of a vegan they have the right to kill me for eating a deer I hunted on their land?

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Blaming the post-blood curse orcs for the things they did under the curse is kind of crass, isn't it? Even our world has things like diminished capacity and I'd say demonic mind control qualifies. What excuses do the Alliance have for the numerous times they've attacked the Horde besides retaliation? Then again, the Alliance blame the Forsaken for things they did when Scourged so I guess at least they're consistent.

And your entire second paragraph is complete nonsense. How we somehow got from one group killing another for cutting down trees when they're nature nuts and won't let other people harvest lumber is somehow equivalent to cultural exchange and assimilation is beyond me.

Alliance dosent need to blame orcs or forsaken for their actions under the control, “luckily” they already far surpassed those actions AFTER becoming free of control.

[Plehnard]

... Then again, the Alliance blame the Forsaken for things they did when Scourged so I guess at least they're consistent...

They don't have to because the forsaken never stopped behaving like the scourge like murdering sleeping druids in Dor'Danil Barrow Den in Ashenvale.

[VladlTutushkin]

No, because the Night Elves would never have willingly given up Ashenvale. So if they DID give up Ashenvale, it would have been unwillingly, thus they would have had the hatred of their loss fester and the war would begin again on those grounds.

There is no avoiding the war in Warcraft. The few times Blizzard had available to them to try, they avoided any chance to do so in order to focus entirely on more reasons for the two factions to CONTINUE warring. They have no interest in removing the conflict.

And it also seems they have no interest in making it interesting or less one-sided and retarded.

[Raisei]

I agree with the first bit - saying that an appeasement strategy against the Horde would have worked or that it would even be the duty of the alliance to not fight back is just a valid interpretation of the lore, the themes of the story or the historic paralels that the horde invasions borrow from.

You mistake the first and second war for political wars. Their goals were simply to wipe out the people of Azeroth just as they had wiped out the Draenei. There is no appeasement possible in such a situation, you fight against the invaders or you get killed by them and with you your friends and family will die too. You can't negotiate with people that that have no goal but blood and death.

But the second bit, I have a problem with.
Internment camps as a permanent solution are always wrong and the lore very much portrays them as such.

I am aware that the lore does that, but that is only because they had to give Jaina the groundwork for later allying with the Orcs. Hence why she gets sad about seeing them there. The simple truth is that the Alliance had two choices: "Imprisonment" or "Execution". No reasonable person would have ever considered just letting them go, any of them, not after the destruction and death they brought. Twice.
Sending them anywhere on Azeroth into "exile" would have given them all the time they needed to repopulate and build up their military strength and then return for a third try. That was simply not a risk anyone of the Alliance would take. And it is pretty much a proven fact that if it wouldn't have been for Thrall the Horde would have done exactly that when the Scourge attacks allowed them to escape. Had not Thrall but Grom lead the Horde they would have definately comeback for round three. Hell, he even recorrupted his people with demon blood, showing that he learned not one bit.
I simply cannot see the alternative to the camps when the only reason their freedom did not result in another mass casualty event on the Alliance side is because of one Orc in thousands seeing the value in non-agression.

They are not prisons where specific war criminals are being imprisoned, they are camps where the entire people of the horde, men, women and children, are being held against their will while having to do slave labor and there is no exit strategy, except for some Alliance members pushing for genocide.

First of all we should establish that the Orcs have no civilians. The concept is foreign to them (the weak are shunned and sometimes even exiled, see Gul'dan), which is also brought up to justify them slaughtering human civilians. And again, I have to ask, what is the alternative? Letting the Women (who in most cases were warriors too, see Draka) and children go? The kids would grow up hating the Alliance anyway and they would come back for revenge, putting the Alliance at risk again. The Orcs needed to be kept in check, they had proven after the first war that beating them back would only make them return.

Portraying them as some sort of necessary and just punishment instead of the Gulags that they are is ethically wrong and not supported by the story at all.

It is not ethically wrong to protect your people from a band of murderous aliens that came to your world twice and killed thousands already. It is absolutely necessary. We did not seek this war, we did not want it, but we won it and the Orcs are simply paying the price for their warmongering.

I'm not saying that the Alliance should just have given them a piece of land and left them alone - they didnt really know about the whole demon blood thing and there was no indication that that wouldnt have just let to the next attemp to wipe out humandkind, but that doesnt make their solution a just one.

(caveat: I am aware that this is a game and I am not actually outraged )

Well, you are being very critical of the solution, but just as all others before you, you offer no sensible alternative. You even state that you couldn't have just let them go and leave them alone. Which I agree with.

So if the camps are unjust and genocide is unjust and we cannot put them on a piece of land or even their own planet and hope they don't attack us again then... what? I simply fail to see any just alternative not covered by these options. It seems to me that with the given situation the camps were the most sensible and reasonable approach.

[Plehnard]

It is not ethically wrong to protect your people from a band of murderous aliens that came to your world twice and killed thousands already. It is absolutely necessary. We did not seek this war, we did not want it, but we won it and the Orcs are simply paying the price for their warmongering.



Well, you are being very critical of the solution, but just as all others before you, you offer no sensible alternative. You even state that you couldn't have just let them go and leave them alone. Which I agree with.

So if the camps are unjust and genocide is unjust and we cannot put them on a piece of land or even their own planet and hope they don't attack us again then... what? I simply fail to see any just alternative not covered by these options. It seems to me that with the given situation the camps were the most sensible and reasonable approach.

And he's deliberately forgetting that some of those orcs (while in their camps) did stick to their old ways and murdered humans to summon the legion. (As seen in the Human campaign of Warcraft3)
Orcs never ceased to be a threat to the human kingdoms even when imprisoned.

[Raisei]

Blaming the post-blood curse orcs for the things they did under the curse is kind of crass, isn't it?

First of all: The Alliance did not know about that. Antonidas was the only one seeing the withdrawl symptoms manifest and even he had no clue what it was about yet. So the Alliance could not possibly have factored that into their decision. For our perspective, I would like to point you to WoD to see what Orcs without demon blood are doing. Yes, exactly the same as their green-skinned brethren. Just slightly less succesful.

Even our world has things like diminished capacity and I'd say demonic mind control qualifies. What excuses do the Alliance have for the numerous times they've attacked the Horde besides retaliation?

What other reason do they need besides retaliation? I don't understand the question. Attacking someone that tries to kill you again and again suddenly needs an excuse? Especially considering how many warcrimes the Horde has commited over the years, we start to need excuses for letting it keep existing, not for attacking it. That is justified ten times over.

Then again, the Alliance blame the Forsaken for things they did when Scourged so I guess at least they're consistent.

Hardly. The Alliance is just fine with ex-Scourge. See the Death Knights. What it doesn't find cool is when the ex-Scourge take their people and test plagues on them or cut them into pieces to make abominations. That strangely does not create good will. I know, so narrow-minded!!

And your entire second paragraph is complete nonsense. How we somehow got from one group killing another for cutting down trees when they're nature nuts and won't let other people harvest lumber is somehow equivalent to cultural exchange and assimilation is beyond me.

Really? You blame the Night Elves for forcing their culture upon the Orcs, but confronted with the evidence that the Orcs forced their culture on every race that joined the Horde, you pretend to not see the similarity? You are obviously being obtuse on purpose.

[geco]

Because it doesn't. The trees are a natural resource that any intelligent race that doesn't have godforsaken nature spirits working for them will need. Like it was posted in WC3, elves are the only ones who can gather lumber (aka they still NEED it) without cutting down the trees. It's no different than the orcs hunting or fishing game and streams the night elves don't use or need, but "it's sacred" so the elves kill them.

Can you imagine Hindus going around killing people who eat beef in India because they see cows are sacred? "Hey you, this is our land and cows are sacred. You killed cows, so we're going to kill you."

In many countries dogs count as a resource.

And not the Hindu no. But for Gandhi more than anything that we all see them as saints.
But I can imagine almost any other religion killing you if you touch some of their sacred things.

So if I'm on the property of a vegan they have the right to kill me for eating a deer I hunted on their land?

Today you would go to prison because that Deer will be the property of the vegan. When crimes were paid with death they would kill you.

[cparle87]

Alliance dosent need to blame orcs or forsaken for their actions under the control, “luckily” they already far surpassed those actions AFTER becoming free of control.

Considering the elves attacking the orcs without provocation and Daelin attacking the orcs without provocation you'll have to forgive me if I find it hard to believe the Alliance aren't just as responsible for the current state of affairs. Taran Zhu put it best "each attack is an aggression, and each retaliation excuse for further aggression, which will only stop when one backs away."

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They don't have to because the forsaken never stopped behaving like the scourge like murdering sleeping druids in Dor'Danil Barrow Den in Ashenvale.

Doesn't matter. You can't hold people responsible for things they do under mind control. If a person is controlled and made to kill a thousand people, is freed from control then goes on to kill a thousand more people you can't blame him for the first thousand. In the topic of this thread the night elves struck first.

[VladlTutushkin]

Considering the elves attacking the orcs without provocation and Daelin attacking the orcs without provocation you'll have to forgive me if I find it hard to believe the Alliance aren't just as responsible for the current state of affairs. Taran Zhu put it best "each attack is an aggression, and each retaliation excuse for further aggression, which will only stop when one backs away."

Elves attacked Alliance too and yet they figured things out and became allies afterwards. Daelin was stopped (and basically "killed") by Jaina (even though she did not struck the blow personally).

And then we have horde just doing stuff that would make an SS officer blush to Alliance as if they were in a war of extermination.

What i am saying that horde responses are always both disproportional, overly brutal and provocative. Not to mention casual breaks of any treaties like Warsong raiding the night elves even when they were trading with the Horde.

[cparle87]

First of all: The Alliance did not know about that. Antonidas was the only one seeing the withdrawl symptoms manifest and even he had no clue what it was about yet. So the Alliance could not possibly have factored that into their decision. For our perspective, I would like to point you to WoD to see what Orcs without demon blood are doing. Yes, exactly the same as their green-skinned brethren. Just slightly less succesful.



What other reason do they need besides retaliation? I don't understand the question. Attacking someone that tries to kill you again and again suddenly needs an excuse? Especially considering how many warcrimes the Horde has commited over the years, we start to need excuses for letting it keep existing, not for attacking it. That is justified ten times over.



Hardly. The Alliance is just fine with ex-Scourge. See the Death Knights. What it doesn't find cool is when the ex-Scourge take their people and test plagues on them or cut them into pieces to make abominations. That strangely does not create good will. I know, so narrow-minded!!



Really? You blame the Night Elves for forcing their culture upon the Orcs, but confronted with the evidence that the Orcs forced their culture on every race that joined the Horde, you pretend to not see the similarity? You are obviously being obtuse on purpose.

In WoD they were convinced by a credible source that an immediate enemy, the draenei, were planning to attack them. If you'd read Chronicles you'd know the draenei had the military technology to eradice the orcs if they were allowed to get started. They were also told of a more distant enemy, us, who had enslaved them in the past and were now seeking to eradicate them. In both cases it was pre-emptive attacks against an enemy in preparation to attack them.

Attacking someone who is not actively trying to harm you is not ok, though. There are peaceful Horde members. Except each time the Alliance labels the entire Horde as warmongers and attacks them they give said warmongers more ammunition. In my own example, the entire first and second wars falls under diminished capacity due to demonic mind control. Immediately after that, when the Horde literally moves continents to avoid further conflict who chases them down to reignite conflict? The Alliance.

The night elves have no problem murdering people for cutting down trees on their land. Why should the forsaken have a problem using trespassers on their own lands as lab rats to develop tools to protect themselves?

You're the one being deliberately obtuse. How in the nine hells can killing someone else for chopping down trees because YOUR culture doesn't like trees being chopped down somehow equal to allies adopting each other's languages, culture, and practices?

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In many countries dogs count as a resource.

And not the Hindu no. But for Gandhi more than anything that we all see them as saints.
But I can imagine almost any other religion killing you if you touch some of their sacred things.



Today you would go to prison because that servant will be the property of the vegan. When crimes were paid with death they would kill you.

I can see say the Temple of Elune being sacred and someone being put to death for defacing it. But declaring an entire giant forest and all the trees in it sacred and killing people for cutting them down for vital purposes is too extreme. The first quote I get. The second one has me super confused. Servant?

[geco]

The first quote I get. The second one has me super confused. Servant?

Sorry, the translator's mistake.

Deer

[Oneirophobia]

You just say that because you don't like him. There is zero proof of your statement. It's just your headcanon.

The fact we do know is that Garrosh acted after being refused Ashenvale's resources by the Night Elves, an act that further starved Orgrimmar. It was a decision of taking the resources by force or starving to death, so war made sense.

Had the Night Elves shared their resources Orgrimmar wouldn't be starving in the first place, Garrosh might not even have been appointed Warchief. Thrall chose him in the first place because of this situation and that war was inevitable as a result of it.

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You're taking that quote way too literally. It's just a statement of taking action, taking matters in their own hands and providing a better future for the Horde. Don't forget that they lost their homeworld and were intruders and chained, they just want to survive and thrive, something that is constantly threatened by the Alliance and other forces.

Don't forget war was declared by Varian after the Battle of Undercity and the Wrathgate. The Alliance started this whole mess. The Night Elves started with starving Orgrimmar. The Horde fought back hard. Why blame them?

I realize I'm replying to someone who is banned, but dude if you think "World Conqueror" Garrosh was just headcanon you didn't pay a single second of attention to any of his story. He explains directly to the player character on several dozen occasions that he intends to take the planet, it rightfully belongs to him and his group of aliens, and anyone else who gets in the way-horde or otherwise- is gunna be put against the wall. Then he proceeds to use an old god to achieve this.

[geco]

I can see say the Temple of Elune being sacred and someone being put to death for defacing it. But declaring an entire giant forest and all the trees in it sacred and killing people for cutting them down for vital purposes is too extreme.

If you are going to tell me that the Kaldoeri religion and customs are rubbish that lead to appreciation of nature at levels that harm its population. We agree, but hey Malfurion's fault.

[Syegfryed]

Some goblins ask him to kill the leader of the Fulbog tribe.

like i said that is after, the night elves start the conflict

I'm going to repeat it one more time and you're going to tell me that it doesn't compare but it's the same.

"I am not going to kill my dog because I love my dog and I am not going to let anyone kill my dog." Love my moral superiority.

It would be "moral superiority" if the Kaldoeri were telling the orcs how to live in their God.

like it was said before, this is a dumb take, Draeneis when landed here destroyed more trees than the horde, why night elves didn't immediately killed then? why night elves are fine with their allies killing other dogs? because the problem was not trees, it never was.

Hordies whining all about that "contract" the night elves "broke" when they refused to give resources to the horde:
What was that contract worth to the night elves? What did they get in return?
"Not getting murdered" is not a trade good, it's just a sign of blackmail. And even this wasn't given considering that the horde kept murdering night elves in vanilla like the sleeping druids in Dor'Danil Barrow Den.

yes, it was worthy, and they got ore in return, something they didn't had, for something they didn't use.

[VladlTutushkin]

If you are going to tell me that the Kaldoeri religion and customs are rubbish that lead to appreciation of nature at levels that harm its population. We agree, but hey Malfurion's fault.

Calling customs of some race rubbish, yeah...

[Kalisandra]

In WoD they were convinced by a credible source that an immediate enemy, the draenei, were planning to attack them. If you'd read Chronicles you'd know the draenei had the military technology to eradice the orcs if they were allowed to get started. They were also told of a more distant enemy, us, who had enslaved them in the past and were now seeking to eradicate them. In both cases it was pre-emptive attacks against an enemy in preparation to attack them.

The justification of warmongers for their 'pre-emptive' strikes since forever. And almost always complete BS. The source was only credible because they wanted to beleive it.

The night elves have no problem murdering people for cutting down trees on their land. Why should the forsaken have a problem using trespassers on their own lands as lab rats to develop tools to protect themselves?

There's a world of difference between execution and torture. Also, the Forsaken were experiementing on people who lived on that land before the Forsaken annexed it. That is to say, on civilians that they'd dispossessed.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Hordies whining all about that "contract" the night elves "broke" when they refused to give resources to the horde:
What was that contract worth to the night elves? What did they get in return?
"Not getting murdered" is not a trade good, it's just a sign of blackmail. And even this wasn't given considering that the horde kept murdering night elves in vanilla like the sleeping druids in Dor'Danil Barrow Den.

The horde was trading ore for the lumber.

[Raisei]

In WoD they were convinced by a credible source that an immediate enemy, the draenei, were planning to attack them.
If you'd read Chronicles you'd know the draenei had the military technology to eradice the orcs if they were allowed to get started. They were also told of a more distant enemy, us, who had enslaved them in the past and were now seeking to eradicate them. In both cases it was pre-emptive attacks against an enemy in preparation to attack them.

Yes, yes. One excuse after the other. First it was the demon blood. Now someone told them to do it and he was really convincing too! By my estimation you will next point to the fact that the Draenei are sought by the Burning Legion to justify their slaughter, yes?

So there two possible explanations for this. The Orcs are the most gulliable people in the universe, ready to murder innocents when some makes up a wild tale (KJ, Garrosh) or they are by nature blood thirsty and were just waiting for a chance to go around murdering their neighbours. By all accounts, the second is the most likely one.

Attacking someone who is not actively trying to harm you is not ok, though.

Which is exactly what the Horde did, numerous times. Beginning with the Draenei they murdered and latey culminating with the Night Elves they butchered, none were actively trying to harm them before they attacked.

There are peaceful Horde members.

Yep, one or two. Sadly, they never act before something bad happens. Only after, when their psychopathic leader turns on them too.

Except each time the Alliance labels the entire Horde as warmongers and attacks them they give said warmongers more ammunition.

Because warmongers is EXACTLY what they are. If they dislike being called that, they might... i dunno... stop starting wars and commit warcrimes. Maybe even stop following known psychopaths, if that is not asking too much!

In my own example, the entire first and second wars falls under diminished capacity due to demonic mind control. Immediately after that, when the Horde literally moves continents to avoid further conflict who chases them down to reignite conflict? The Alliance.

I explained already why the Alliance cannot just let the Orcs go in the vain hope that they will not just repopulate and come back for a third war. They tried that after the First War and it only resulted in more death and destruction for the humans.
And secondly, if it weren't for Thrall then they would have done exactly this. Grom would have recorrupted all the Orcs and they would happily have slaughtered more humans. I mean even with Thrall there Grom can barely stop himself from just running at the next human to rip their heads off.

Also, to adress the demon blood again. You fail to realize that the blood only increased the blood lust that was already there. WoD makes it clear that they never needed the blood to become warmongers, just someone to give them an excuse to act on their own base instincts.

The night elves have no problem murdering people for cutting down trees on their land. Why should the forsaken have a problem using trespassers on their own lands as lab rats to develop tools to protect themselves?

The Night Elves killed intruders on their ancestral land. The Forsaken stole land that belonged to humans by murdering them and then used the survivors in disgusting experiments and desecrated their corpses and you try to tell me that is the same thing?

You're the one being deliberately obtuse. How in the nine hells can killing someone else for chopping down trees because YOUR culture doesn't like trees being chopped down somehow equal to allies adopting each other's languages, culture, and practices?

People have been killed for much less. Ask your Orc buddies. They killed people because they weren't Orcs. In war after war. They simply do not get to play the victim card.
I try again to point out the meaning, because you are not getting it:
1) The Orcs forced their culture on other races. Swearing the Blood Oath and thus becoming subservient to an Orc and Orcish Culture was the condition to join the Horde.
2) If you are not part of the Horde, you are an enemy and you will be killed.

Ergo: Orcs killed people for not accepting their culture, Nightelfs did the same.

Also, it is cute how you say the adopted each others language and culture. They didn't. They speak orcish, all of them and they abide by the orcish rule of strength over everything. There are no Troll, Blood Elf or Tauren traits anywhere in the Horde's culture.

I can see say the Temple of Elune being sacred and someone being put to death for defacing it. But declaring an entire giant forest and all the trees in it sacred and killing people for cutting them down for vital purposes is too extreme. The first quote I get. The second one has me super confused. Servant?

The forest was their's to do with as they liked. Simple as that. The Orcs came there and immediatedly started taking things without even considering if they might belong to someone else, because, let's face it: They wouldn't have cared either way.