I think mythic plus would work better if it didn't reward gear.

[Malania]

Hell no!

It should reward more, not less loot.

And be upgradable to mythic-raid level.

God no, 5 man group content should not be rewarded with gear equivalent to 20 man group content of far more complexity and difficulty. Honestly 220 is too high.

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So we already had this sort of system, it was called Challenge Mode, it wasn't very successful and everyone just bought their clears. I do agree there is a problem with M+, but it's not that it awards gear.

Everyone always buys clears. People bought clears for Zul Aman in TBC. It's not a new problem. Challenge Modes were fine offering mount, titles and cosmetics.

[Rinaul]

So... What's the drive to do keys if they don't reward loot? This would just lead to essentially Twisting Corridors where why bother if it doesn't offer something to improve your character and is just something to do.

[Malania]

This here is where you are mistaken. History has shown that the vast majority of players don't learn from their mistakes, don't adapt to situations, and don't form strategies. Compare the average person to average scripted content and you can easily see why raiding is harder. Glad vs mythic raiding? Yeah. PvP is prob harder because once mythic raiding is solved for a raid it's very easy.

You're kind of countering your first statement by saying once a raid strat is nailed for the raid it's easy and saying people don't formulate strategies or learn from their mistakes. You have to do both of those in any form of raiding and PVP or you'll never kill anything. People obviously kill and win so they do learn. It's just not always at the same rate.

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So... What's the drive to do keys if they don't reward loot? This would just lead to essentially Twisting Corridors where why bother if it doesn't offer something to improve your character and is just something to do.

Cosmetics and mounts and titles worked in the past.

[Stickiler]

Cosmetics and mounts and titles worked in the past.

They really didn't though. Not for the kind of content M+ is. Cosmetics(I'm just grouping everything you mentioned under this) work great for one and done activities(see Twisted Corridors), but horrible for content you're supposed to repeat as a method of play. The whole point of M+ is it's an activity that you take part in each week. CMs, the original M+-style activity, were a one and done, and were a fucking ghost town after the first couple of months.

[ellieg]

The reason people want to over-gear content is to get it over with ASAP. They want to get it over with ASAP because they do not enjoy the process; they're only interested in the loot. Ergo, they will do anything in their power to decrease the chance of failure. God forbid they fail a key and have to do it again! Who wants to play a game they're paying for, right?

Which is why my conclusion is that WoW's [replayable] content, isn't any good.

I disagree with this. I want to decrease chance of failure because failing isn't fun. The fun part of mythic+ is when everyone is on the same page and the run goes smooth. Route is good, tank keeps aggro, dps doing mechanics, interrupting and pumping. Healer keeping ppl up and adding dps. Thats the fun part. Thats what motivates me to do 4 or 10 runs for vault instead of 1.

[Malania]

They really didn't though. Not for the kind of content M+ is. Cosmetics(I'm just grouping everything you mentioned under this) work great for one and done activities(see Twisted Corridors), but horrible for content you're supposed to repeat as a method of play. The whole point of M+ is it's an activity that you take part in each week. CMs, the original M+-style activity, were a one and done, and were a fucking ghost town after the first couple of months.

I personally disagree with you but it's just my opinion.

Challenge modes were run the life of the expansion by people just qualifying for them with raid gear with available gem slots to make it easier and people doing alts or people trying to beat the best time. I know personally 4-5 people who ran them on every character because they enjoyed them and they were actually a challenge you couldn't out gear unlike Twisting Corridors or m+.

Personally I only did them on 2 characters but I would have done more if I had the time or patience to level multiple toons.

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I disagree with this. I want to decrease chance of failure because failing isn't fun. The fun part of mythic+ is when everyone is on the same page and the run goes smooth. Route is good, tank keeps aggro, dps doing mechanics, interrupting and pumping. Healer keeping ppl up and adding dps. Thats the fun part. Thats what motivates me to do 4 or 10 runs for vault instead of 1.

Problem is m+ basically runs on the same page as LFG. Unless it's a preset group of friends, then it's usually a group of people you'll never see again and ideally they want to get it done but really they want to do the minimum possible, the fastest possible. Which means hoping to get carried by people who know how to do the following: Interupt, stun, slow and CC because they were trained to do so and the current generation of casual players weren't. LFG has trained people for a decade to race through as fast as possible and do the minimum possible. That's all m+ is, a harder LFG these days.

[Zyky]

Everyone always buys clears. People bought clears for Zul Aman in TBC. It's not a new problem. Challenge Modes were fine offering mount, titles and cosmetics.

You missed the point, it's not that selling was a thing, it's that it had zero replayability which made it a failure of a system.

[Malania]

You missed the point, it's not that selling was a thing, it's that it had zero replayability which made it a failure of a system.

I got your point. I disagreed. It had replayability in the concept of timed runs (titles for worlds fastest) as well as availability for alts to do it. Gear gets replaced, you can't earn the cosmetics CM's offered any more.

[Nalam the Venom]

Vault gear comes from the vault, M+ gear comes from M+, raid gear comes from raid, PvP gear comes from PvP etc etc.

You have to do M+ to get vault tho.

Thus M+ gear

[Lolites]

God no, 5 man group content should not be rewarded with gear equivalent to 20 man group content of far more complexity and difficulty. Honestly 220 is too high.

then good news, M+ reward 210 tops...
weekly vault is a.) shared with raid and pvp and b.) necesary for M+ to remain relevant after week2 of season...

personaly, i think it is fine as it is, M+ lets you progres on its own, and keeps you motivated by weekly chance for mythic piece (sure, the loot is certain, but theres over 60posible pieces from m+ and you dont want most of them), but the best gear still drops in high end raiding and pvp

and honestly, i never understood the problem some raiders have with vault for m+, if you have good progres in mythic you are more likely to get more and better gear from that, and if you dont vault can only help you...

[Necromantic]

The reason people want to over-gear content is to get it over with ASAP. They want to get it over with ASAP because they do not enjoy the process; they're only interested in the loot. Ergo, they will do anything in their power to decrease the chance of failure. God forbid they fail a key and have to do it again! Who wants to play a game they're paying for, right?

Which is why my conclusion is that WoW's [replayable] content, isn't any good.

I get that's one reason why people want to over-gear it. It's still a big problem and a huge flaw in the system. That's why people are suggesting better ways to fix it.

That would be too much work for Ion & co. Why do all of that when instead you can just cut drop rates in half so that people are forced to chase that OP vault loot if they want to progress their toon?

I'm sure it is wishful thinking. The company's recent years of the "lazy approach" to the game is very pronounced at this point.

What stops those new players that are "clearly ready" to get in to some content to make their own groups with other new players that are "clearly ready" to do that content, instead of relying on the established "bad people"?
I mean then they can avoid all those established people that don't want them in their groups.

Or are you suggesting that new "clearly ready" players are entitled to be invited to other people's groups?

I was very close to answering your questions until your last sentence which was pure troll.

[faunski]

God no, 5 man group content should not be rewarded with gear equivalent to 20 man group content of far more complexity and difficulty.

Infinitely scaling cannot be compared to a set level of difficulty. There will come a point where the scaling content becomes harder than the set one. As far as percentages go, CE for this season is around the same as 20-21s timed, given that if there was more incentive to do m+ there might be a slight increase in players.

As someone who'd like to do m+ as the primary content, it kinda pains me that I have to do CE and farm 2.4k at the start of the season just to get the best gear to push. I don't mind the raiding as I do enjoy it a bit, but especially PVP is just a week of wasted of time. I do hope they'll come up with a similar solution they did for PVP items in 9.1, with m+ items downscaling elsewhere yet being on the same level as the highest attainable ilvl in m+ content. That'd be a nice compromise.

[Loveliest]

I don't understand what you're suggesting. Basically raid difficulties for dungeons and eliminating the whole idea behind mythic plus incremental neverending progression?

I mean sure, that would solve some of the pugging issues but it would also get you into the same gearing issue you have with raiding.
If heroic dungeons don't give good rewards what is the point of running them? And if mythic dungeons are out of my reach, what do I have left?

But most importantly, if i don't have good enough gear to run a Mythic, where do i get the gear to run it from? Heroic? How long would it take to have gear that is good enough for it?

This game is not really skill-based, it is gear based by a large margin. And you miss one important part: raiding has progression bosses. You kill one two bosses, get some gear, come back the next week. Dungeons are one encounter and have no internal progression (unless you want to actually make each boss in each dungeon give loot and have dungeon progression). So you either have the gear to run it or you don't. This means players would have to have mythic dungeons inaccesibile for quite a bit until they get gear for it, otherwise mythic would be super undertuned. And mythic raiders would have a much much easier time starting it. This, in time, will start making Mythic dungeons exclusive for Mythic raiders, a side activity for them, hard to breach for those who want to participate.

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I personally disagree with you but it's just my opinion.

Challenge modes were run the life of the expansion by people just qualifying for them with raid gear with available gem slots to make it easier and people doing alts or people trying to beat the best time. I know personally 4-5 people who ran them on every character because they enjoyed them and they were actually a challenge you couldn't out gear unlike Twisting Corridors or m+.

Personally I only did them on 2 characters but I would have done more if I had the time or patience to level multiple toons.

You mean you disagree because some ppl ran them once on their alts for rewards? It is still ONCE. I mean you yourself ran them twice in a full expansion, does it feel comparable to M+?
I mean I helped a few friends do theirs after i did mine but really, not something you do more than a few times.

And to be fair, CMs were actually super popular only at the very end. Ppl who did them at the start, did them for the challange. Ppl who did them at the end did them for rewards and because they were far more accessible.

[MrLachyG]

no. /10char

[justandulas]

M+ is both one of the best and worst things put into WoW

On one hand, keeping dungeons relevant is great and giving non raiders something to strive for is fine with me

But, raid gear has become completely lacking in imagination since m+ came onto the scene, like they have to design the gear to be on par. No class tiers, no raid legendarys, etc... the raid scene is dying and one major reason is m+. Not only does it incentivize people to not raid and gear in 5 mans, but it also allows blizzard to be even more lackluster and unimaginative about raid gear

[Malania]

then good news, M+ reward 210 tops...
weekly vault is a.) shared with raid and pvp and b.) necesary for M+ to remain relevant after week2 of season...

personaly, i think it is fine as it is, M+ lets you progres on its own, and keeps you motivated by weekly chance for mythic piece (sure, the loot is certain, but theres over 60posible pieces from m+ and you dont want most of them), but the best gear still drops in high end raiding and pvp

and honestly, i never understood the problem some raiders have with vault for m+, if you have good progres in mythic you are more likely to get more and better gear from that, and if you dont vault can only help you...

M+ offers an upgrade system up to 220 @ 12/12.

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I don't understand what you're suggesting. Basically raid difficulties for dungeons and eliminating the whole idea behind mythic plus incremental neverending progression?

I mean sure, that would solve some of the pugging issues but it would also get you into the same gearing issue you have with raiding.
If heroic dungeons don't give good rewards what is the point of running them? And if mythic dungeons are out of my reach, what do I have left?

But most importantly, if i don't have good enough gear to run a Mythic, where do i get the gear to run it from? Heroic? How long would it take to have gear that is good enough for it?

This game is not really skill-based, it is gear based by a large margin. And you miss one important part: raiding has progression bosses. You kill one two bosses, get some gear, come back the next week. Dungeons are one encounter and have no internal progression (unless you want to actually make each boss in each dungeon give loot and have dungeon progression). So you either have the gear to run it or you don't. This means players would have to have mythic dungeons inaccesibile for quite a bit until they get gear for it, otherwise mythic would be super undertuned. And mythic raiders would have a much much easier time starting it. This, in time, will start making Mythic dungeons exclusive for Mythic raiders, a side activity for them, hard to breach for those who want to participate.

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You mean you disagree because some ppl ran them once on their alts for rewards? It is still ONCE. I mean you yourself ran them twice in a full expansion, does it feel comparable to M+?
I mean I helped a few friends do theirs after i did mine but really, not something you do more than a few times.

And to be fair, CMs were actually super popular only at the very end. Ppl who did them at the start, did them for the challange. Ppl who did them at the end did them for rewards and because they were far more accessible.

No, I disagree because they were ran the entire expansion. I helped some people in the guild as a healer do theirs as well. How does it compare to m+? I feel CM's had an aim and a purpose and m+ is just busy work until the next expansion.

[Kokolums]

The problem with m+ is it is antisocial.

There is a difference between multiplayer and social. Multiplayer can be like m+ where no-one really talks and its gogogo rio. That mode SUCKS. Social would be about actually talking and enjoying people's company.

[Wavebossa]

They're already hands down the nest way to gear up a character, you don't need more loot.

This is a lie.

You know this is a lie.

Why even say this?

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The problem with m+ is it is antisocial.

There is a difference between multiplayer and social. Multiplayer can be like m+ where no-one really talks and its gogogo rio. That mode SUCKS. Social would be about actually talking and enjoying people's company.

That's not a Mythic+ problem, that is pug problem.

Mythic+ is the most social thing I do in WoW.

Why? because i play the game with people I know. People in my guild. We get in comms, we laugh, we joke, we run high keys (like 18s, not sure how high that is relatively) without stress because we are just having fun.

You guys would enjoy WoW more if you pugged less.

[czarek]

No. WoW was always about gearup. Obtain epix and be proud of it. Cheers.

[AKGaming]

You realize a good portion of us play the game strictly for mythic+ right? We don't raid as we have complicated careers and families to tend to or other various reasons. So we should all just quit I suppose?

The problem with m+ is it is antisocial.

There is a difference between multiplayer and social. Multiplayer can be like m+ where no-one really talks and its gogogo rio. That mode SUCKS. Social would be about actually talking and enjoying people's company.

You are describing pugging any type of content, in any game. Find a guild in your mmorpg.