If the night elves gave half of Ashenvale to the Horde, would there have been peace?

[OwenBurton]

Yeah, no. Thats just an appeasement tactic that never worked in human history or in history of WoW. Giving orcs even part of Asehnvale is out of question. If they want it they have to fight the night elves and entire Alliance for it.

OR

They can just find alternative resource sources which are available to them after all the land grabs they made in Cata and Legion.

Ashenvale is not only the sacred land of the night elves but also their major territory. Its like asking Forsaken to allow humans to settle in Lordaeron and actually own half of it.

And after War of Thorns horde shot any chances of getting part of Ashenvale peacefully out of the water by their constant stream of war crimes and a genocide.

There was an old proverb during the Soviet era...perhaps you might have heard of it, though the last time I was there was years ago, when I was young. Of course, I think it was meant to translate to Communist ideology (referring to social status and power relying on the ability to informally network, much more than simply your personal income), but nevertheless, it is not entirely irrelevant.

It translates to something like, better to have a hundred friends than a hundred rubles.

[VladlTutushkin]

There was an old proverb during the Soviet era...perhaps you might have heard of it, though the last time I was there was years ago, when I was young. Of course, I think it was meant to translate to Communist ideology (referring to social status and power relying on the ability to informally network, much more than simply your personal income), but nevertheless, it is not entirely irrelevant.

It translates to something like, better to have a hundred friends than a hundred rubles.

There is a better proverb, or even two.

“Who comes at us with a sword will die on a sword.” And “Vast is the Motherland but has no land for retreat.”

Orcs chose to aggress against night elves even when they reached a peaceful solution already hence cementing their status as defilers and occupants.

[geco]

The horde was trading ore for the lumber.

The point is, that doesn't work for the Kaldorei.
They had to have tried for example with silver.

[Soon-TM]

The point is, that doesn't work for the Kaldorei.
They had to have tried for example with silver.

They shouldn't have accepted the agreement in the first place, it they deemed it unsuitable. But accepting it only to break it unilaterally... well.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

The point is, that doesn't work for the Kaldorei.
They had to have tried for example with silver.

It literally did work that’s what they were trading for the orcs weren’t getting lumber for free.

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There is a better proverb, or even two.

“Who comes at us with a sword will die on a sword.” And “Vast is the Motherland but has no land for retreat.”

Orcs chose to aggress against night elves even when they reached a peaceful solution already hence cementing their status as defilers and occupants.

Out of the 3 orc night elf conflicts the night elfs (or alliance) started the first two. Even your own proverb puts the night elfs at fault.

[geco]

Out of the 3 orc night elf conflicts the night elfs (or alliance) started the first two. Even your own proverb puts the night elfs at fault.

There are 4 conflicts. The horde started 3.
And if we are going to count, I really start the 4. Because a group of rebellious Hordes attacking the alliance was what broke the treaty and in turn. Garrosh is the one who does not cope not to sign it again.

1- Invade territory in W3.
2- Invade territory in WoW Vanilla.
3- Attack the alliance and the horde from behind.
4- Magic magic writers is the fault of the Horde because we wrote badly but in truth it is the fault of the wolf.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

There are 4 conflicts. The horde started 3.
And if we are going to count, I really start the 4. Because a group of rebellious Hordes attacking the alliance was what broke the treaty and in turn. Garrosh is the one who does not cope not to sign it again.

1- Invade territory in W3.
2- Invade territory in WoW Vanilla.
3- Attack the alliance and the horde from behind.
4- Magic magic writers is the fault of the Horde because we wrote badly but in truth it is the fault of the wolf.

So kicking things off with murder in WC3, night elfs fault.

Id count vanilla as a Cold War continuation of WC3 as the game/lore does.

Not even varian counted wrath gate as being done by the horde so that goes out the window. Meaning the conflict starts in undercity and the first assaults are made by the alliance on the barrans and mulgore before the cataclysm. So again night elf/alliance fault.

Then we have bfa which is the hordes fault.

So 2/3 night elfs fault 2/2 if we want to split WC3-vanilla which there’s no point in doing as neither the game nor lore treat it that way.

[geco]

So kicking things off with murder in WC3, night elfs fault.

Id count vanilla as a Cold War continuation of WC3 as the game/lore does.

Not even varian counted wrath gate as being done by the horde so that goes out the window. Meaning the conflict starts in undercity and the first assaults are made by the alliance on the barrans and mulgore before the cataclysm. So again night elf/alliance fault.

Then we have bfa which is the hordes fault.

So 2/3 night elfs fault 2/2 if we want to split WC3-vanilla which there’s no point in doing as neither the game nor lore treat it that way.

Invading the territory of another nation and destroying their lands is a declaration of war.

And if it was supposed that there was peace after the fight with Archimonde and the Horde again invaded the territory. They are two different conflicts.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Invading the territory of another nation and destroying their lands is a declaration of war.

And if it was supposed that there was peace after the fight with Archimonde and the Horde again invaded the territory. They are two different conflicts.

There was no invasion of another nation the orcs saw an unmarked forest and the night elfs attacked them like they had done to other races before. If they wanted to claim to be a nation and to tell others off they could have marked there borders they chose not to and to just murder any one who unknowing walked onto them.

The lore/game doesn’t act like there was any peace between WC3-wow.

[geco]

There was no invasion of another nation the orcs saw an unmarked forest and the night elfs attacked them like they had done to other races before. If they wanted to claim to be a nation and to tell others off they could have marked there borders they chose not to and to just murder any one who unknowing walked onto them.

The lore/game doesn’t act like there was any peace between WC3-wow.

They saw a forest haunted by night elf spirits but assumed it was nothing important and said "it is unmarked."
It is like going to Ogrimar and not seeing any Kaldorei and they say "there is no Kaldorei, this city does not belong to anyone".

And once they had more than confirmed that the land belonged to someone they kept attacking.

More than in the same W3 they make it clear that there were no more wars. You have all the campaign to pray without the slightest Kaldorei-Orc problem.
Even the Wow Intro makes it clear to you that I have had peace for a while.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

They saw a forest haunted by night elf spirits but assumed it was nothing important and said "it is unmarked."
It is like going to Ogrimar and not seeing any Kaldorei and they say "there is no Kaldorei, this city does not belong to anyone".

And once they had more than confirmed that the land belonged to someone they kept attacking.

More than in the same W3 they make it clear that there were no more wars. You have all the campaign to pray without the slightest Kaldorei-Orc problem.
Even the Wow Intro makes it clear to you that I have had peace for a while.

If you don’t know what a wisp is it comes across as a random ball of light. It doesn’t tell you that the land is owned at all just that there are weird light balls.

You also only hurt your argument by comparing it to a city. If the night elf had built any building at all on there border or even just post you’d be right it would be the orcs fault but they choose not to do that giving outsiders no idea that they owned the land or even that they existed.

Past the night elfs murder they did keep attacking but it was already the night elfs fault at that point for attacking first. As the fresh prince once said,don’t start nothing, won’t be nothing.

A ceasefire or armistice also isn’t peace. The wow intro says something like “the drums of war are ready to beat” said drums don’t beat in vanilla or even tbc the horde/alliance don’t go back to all out war until wrath/cata which is why they are able to set up the lumber-ore trade deal in tbc in the first place.

[geco]

If you don’t know what a wisp is it comes across as a random ball of light. It doesn’t tell you that the land is owned at all just that there are weird light balls.

You also only hurt your argument by comparing it to a city. If the night elf had built any building at all on there border or even just post you’d be right it would be the orcs fault but they choose not to do that giving outsiders no idea that they owned the land or even that they existed.

Past the night elfs murder they did keep attacking but it was already the night elfs fault at that point for attacking first. As the fresh prince once said,don’t start nothing, won’t be nothing.

A ceasefire or armistice also isn’t peace. The wow intro says something like “the drums of war are ready to beat” said drums don’t beat in vanilla or even tbc the horde/alliance don’t go back to all out war until wrath/cata which is why they are able to set up the lumber-ore trade deal in tbc in the first place.

In summary. Invading other lands and killing friends of other races is fine. I don't care that there are military facilities 10 steps away. Because I only come to kill your friends because I want wood.

Defending your lands and your friends is wrong. You have to let them kill you and rob you.

PS: Nothing says that Ogrimar belonged to the orcs. There are only strange green ceres walking around.

[OwenBurton]

This is the correct answer, if anything he didn't even want to stop to Kalimdor, he wanted to conquer the entire planet:



As he said in the Twilight Highlands intro.

Sounds pretty crazy to me, this guy was always a psychopath, I don't know what Thrall saw in him to make him Warchief but he clearly failed (as he admits in BfA to Jaina).

Regardless of Garrosh's flaws, I think he was in a very uncomfortable situation. What do you think Thrall would have done then? To sustain his people after the Cataclysm? If the night elves still refused to negotiate?

Your character is a former blood elf. Perhaps you might recall - Ashenvale was not only the night elves' homeland. It was also that of the Highborne - the highest caste of night elf society. There are probably some blood elves alive today who lived there long ago:

There was a blood elf in Ashenvale, Braelyn Firehand, who stated that:
I knew Ordanus once, long ago. He had the arrogance of his kind, holding himself above even the Highborne.

In Blood of the Highborne, Liadrin mentions that Ashenvale was the blood elves' ancestral homeland or something. That was where Dath'Remar and the others seemingly resided - before their banishment.

So the blood elves could argue the kaldorei do NOT have an exclusive claim to Ashenvale. They could argue the Highborne ruled the Kaldorei Empire, conquered Ashenvale and ruled it for thousands of years, probably before Tyrande and Malfurion were even originally born. To keep it simple:

1. Dath'Remar personally assisted and rescued Tyrande, probably saving her life. According to the novel, he and his Highborne attempted to sabotage the Well of Eternity - to thwart the Legion's attempts to build the portal.
2. The night elf survivors gathered in Hyjal after the Sundering - Illidan, Malfurion's brother, nearly killed Dath'Remar and several others, and Nordrassil was soon planted.
3. The night elves gradually expanded southwards from Hyjal towards Ashenvale after they explored what was left of Kalimdor.
4. The night elves, including the Highborne, re-occupied and re-settled in Ashenvale eventually. The Highborne created a storm, Malfurion was displeased and immediately banished them, apparently on pain of death - completely cutting them off from the Well of Eternity's immortality-sustaining energies.

But the blood elves in Kalimdor, including the NPCs in Ashenvale and Azshara, for example, according to their quests - they probably honestly see that land as rightfully theirs, the place where their ancestors ruled for ages, where the Highborne first ruled under their empire, and where they settled again, and originally came from before their exile to the Eastern Kingdoms. That is why the Reliquary, for example, is so active - in these ancient lands, because they still feel such deep affinity for their heritage and the legacy of their ancestors. And they think it hypocrisy that the Shen'dralar, who actively imprisoned a void creature for thousands of years, were nevertheless permitted back into night elf society fairly easily without repercussions for their actions and mistakes, while Malfurion still refused to apologize to Dath'Remar's descendants.

1. The Highborne could argue that it was humans - the night elves' current allies - via Medivh, Arthas and Kel'Thuzad - who helped bring the Legion back to Azeroth - NOT the Highborne, who were undoubtedly victims of the Second and Third Wars. Who indirectly caused so much devastation to Quel'Thalas, and wiped out most of their race.
2. The Highborne could argue that the night elves did nothing to help them in their genocide, they refused to send even token support or condolences, as far as we are aware. At the least the orcs are willing to put aside the past and have changed themselves somewhat, agreeing to accept the blood elves as comrades and allies, rather than hold onto old grudges, like Tyrande, Maiev and other night elves.
3. The Highborne might argue that their runestones were perfect and flawless - they proved it was possible to practice the arcane safely and maturely for an extended period of time, sustaining a rich and glorious culture, without practicing druidism or endangering their society in the long-term.
4. The Highborne might argue that they helped the Council of Tirisfal, training humanity in responsible ways of wielding the arcane. They alerted them of the Legion's existence and dangers, empowering a literal "Guardian" for thousands of years, while the night elves did very little to actively fight the Legion during the Long Vigil, except perhaps their brief war with the satyrs, and most of their men were slumbering away, ignoring the world outside an isolated part of Kalimdor. The night elves didn't even seem to help the tauren against the centaur, can they really blame them for choosing the Horde over the kaldorei, somewhat similar their cultures might be?

So at least from the perspective of the blood elves - the Alliance does NOT (necessarily) have a completely exclusive claim to these territories - any more than the draenei, for example, did to Outland, or the living humans to the lands of Lordaeron. Even in real life, borders frequently shift and change all the time, after squabbles or disputes, nothing is definitively fixed or immutable regarding national boundaries.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

In summary. Invading other lands and killing friends of other races is fine. I don't care that there are military facilities 10 steps away. Because I only come to kill your friends because I want wood.

Defending your lands and your friends is wrong. You have to let them kill you and rob you.

PS: Nothing says that Ogrimar belonged to the orcs. There are only strange green ceres walking around.

The orcs didn’t kill any friends of the night elfs they aren’t friends with non living trees. The night elf’S also didn’t have any structures until like half way into the zone which the orcs couldn’t have possible seen as its miles and miles of land.

So in summary, yes murdering people for being out siders with no warning at all is wrong.

[Syegfryed]

The point is, that doesn't work for the Kaldorei.
They had to have tried for example with silver.

it was working fine, they didn't like it, because they were xenophobic, they rather conflict than peace.

There is a better proverb, or even two.

“Who comes at us with a sword will die on a sword.”

that is literally what the night elves did with the orcs back in wc3, lmao, they come with a sword and died on a sword, beautfiul.

its amusing how you cannot see the hypocrisy.

The justification of warmongers for their 'pre-emptive' strikes since forever. And almost always complete BS. The source was only credible because they wanted to beleive it.

it was not bs, and the soruce was completely credible, shamanistic magic that showed the future in one case and the ancestrals spirits in another one.

There's a world of difference between execution and torture. Also, the Forsaken were experiementing on people who lived on that land before the Forsaken annexed it. That is to say, on civilians that they'd dispossessed.

the difference is basically your arbitrary point of view, if its the night elf "ways" to kill trespassers and act like the trees are sacred, is the "forsaken way" to experiment in other people.

[geco]

The orcs didn’t kill any friends of the night elfs they aren’t friends with non living trees. The night elf’S also didn’t have any structures until like half way into the zone which the orcs couldn’t have possible seen as its miles and miles of land.

So in summary, yes murdering people for being out siders with no warning at all is wrong.

Malfurion talks to the trees, The druids too even the trees rise and peel at his side at times.

Good guys and the orcs would have gone down the main road had they seen the town.

It's like you enter Argentina through a random part of the mountain or the sea and say "they didn't mark the border."

it was working fine, they didn't like it, because they were xenophobic, they rather conflict than peace.

They were only Xenophobic in W3. Not even in the expansion. And they even try to redo the deal, the one who failed was Garrosh.

[Syegfryed]

There are 4 conflicts. The horde started 3.

false.

1- Invade territory in W3.

they didn't invade, they transpassed an unknow territory with no marks, who start the conflict was the night elves by killing orcs.

2- Invade territory in WoW Vanilla.

they didn't, horde was already installed there by the events of reign of chaos, when the horde help the night elves in the final struggle against the legion, by any means some night elves groups went attacking horde caravans, but not aturing their presence in those lands and its what started the battleground.

3- Attack the alliance and the horde from behind.

it was a rogue group, in nortrend , so NO, the horde didn't started nothing in ashenvale, and it was Varian who declared war against the horde in wrathgate.

4- Magic magic writers is the fault of the Horde because we wrote badly but in truth it is the fault of the wolf.

what?

Invading the territory of another nation and destroying their lands is a declaration of war.

they didn't "invade the territory of another nation and destroyed their lands" you have to stop extrpolating those events

nations have KNOW borders and KNOW limits, they make sure to other natios the lands belong to then, something night elves didn't, and you are comapring "cutting trees" to "destroying the lands"

And if it was supposed that there was peace after the fight with Archimonde and the Horde again invaded the territory. They are two different conflicts.

no, horde was already there after archimonde, the conflict started again because night elves could not stand horde there, regardless of their help in the battle, regardless if they were dying without resources.

[Plehnard]

..
Id count vanilla as a Cold War continuation of WC3 as the game/lore does. ...

It's not a cold war if you infiltrate land and kill it's sleeping inhabitants. The horde never stopped murdering even in peace times, so night elves just ended a contract that was already broken.

[Syegfryed]

In summary. Invading other lands and killing friends of other races is fine.

dude, this is a lie, you are acting like they knew those lands belong to someone else, NOTHING SHOWED THAT, there is no marks, no limits, no borders, buildings or anything showing this lands belong to someone, they even send scouts to find people and they didn't find a thing, they rightlfully assumed no one lived there and grab resources

they didn't kill anyone friends, stop using that to excuse the night elf behaviour

Defending your lands and your friends is wrong. You have to let them kill you and rob you.

now trees are friends? is that bs a thing now?

PS: Nothing says that Ogrimar belonged to the orcs. There are only strange green ceres walking around.

orgrimamar have big walls spikes outposts showing it does belongs to orcs.

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They were only Xenophobic in W3. Not even in the expansion. And they even try to redo the deal, the one who failed was Garrosh.

another lie, they didn't try alone, the horde tried too, and it failed because of then

they accused the horde of attacking, when it was the twilight cult

[StationaryHawk]

In summary. Invading other lands and killing friends of other races is fine. I don't care that there are military facilities 10 steps away. Because I only come to kill your friends because I want wood.

Defending your lands and your friends is wrong. You have to let them kill you and rob you.

PS: Nothing says that Ogrimar belonged to the orcs. There are only strange green ceres walking around.

You make it sound deliberate, but that can't be true because the orcs were simply unaware that Ashenvale was inhabited.