I think mythic plus would work better if it didn't reward gear.

[Lolites]

M+ offers an upgrade system up to 220 @ 12/12.

sure, for few pieces, definitely not for full gear, and you still have to get the drop before, and farm valor, and have KSM... not to mention it was added quite late...
compared to clearing HC raid which will reward the same ilvl from last few bosses it seems to be quite a lot of work...

[nocturnus]

I disagree with this. I want to decrease chance of failure because failing isn't fun. The fun part of mythic+ is when everyone is on the same page and the run goes smooth. Route is good, tank keeps aggro, dps doing mechanics, interrupting and pumping. Healer keeping ppl up and adding dps. Thats the fun part. Thats what motivates me to do 4 or 10 runs for vault instead of 1.

Feel free to disagree.

Remove loot rewards from raiding and m+. My thesis is that hardly anyone will do that content.

I already explained why that is and referred to an excellent book about game addiction and variables that trigger it; to avoid repeating myself, look up the post or we can agree to disagree. All is good, my friend.

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I get that's one reason why people want to over-gear it. It's still a big problem and a huge flaw in the system. That's why people are suggesting better ways to fix it.

Absolutely a huge flaw, from our perspective. Not from Blizzard's [money making] perspective; it's all about keeping people subbing and you can bet your bottom dollar that they have a huge team of psychologists making sure they hit all appropriate nerves.

[ellieg]

Feel free to disagree.

Remove loot rewards from raiding and m+. My thesis is that hardly anyone will do that content.

I already explained why that is and referred to an excellent book about game addiction and variables that trigger it; to avoid repeating myself, look up the post or we can agree to disagree. All is good, my friend.

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Absolutely a huge flaw, from our perspective. Not from Blizzard's [money making] perspective.

Thats fair. I think if u removed loot, or any reward from anything, participation would plummet. Ppl do things to get things.

[nocturnus]

This here is where you are mistaken. History has shown that the vast majority of players don't learn from their mistakes, don't adapt to situations, and don't form strategies. Compare the average person to average scripted content and you can easily see why raiding is harder. Glad vs mythic raiding? Yeah. PvP is prob harder because once mythic raiding is solved for a raid it's very easy.

What history? And what the hell are you talking about? You think strategies don't apply to pvp? In pve you can literally look up what the best strategy is and follow the dance to the letter; nothing really changes because - guess what - it's all fucking scripted: you know what's going to happen and roughly when it's going to happen. On top of that, you've got addons warning you with sirens, flashing screens and what not.

I'm not saying mythic raiding is easy, because coordinating 20 dumb-fucks really isn't. But engaging in combat versus humans will always be more difficult because they can dynamically change strategies, behaviour, they can apply mind-games and do that which you least expect.

Heck, at this point I'm repeating myself, so agree to disagree.

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Thats fair. I think if u removed loot, or any reward from anything, participation would plummet. Ppl do things to get things.

Yep, unless the thing they do is fun. Let's be honest, the best [pve] game you can think of isn't that much fun if you repeat it right after having completed it. Now imagine doing that every day, for months until something new comes out.

[Progenitor Aquarius]

Never. I wouldn't waste time for doing m+ and not getting anything. I don't really understand what do you mean by buffing mythic 0 to 15 or buffing heroic to mythic 7. New players have problem with doing mythic + 2. How about people who like to do 20's. This is too confusing, it gives me a headache.

[nocturnus]

Never. I wouldn't waste time for doing m+ and not getting anything.

Why not?

(indulge me for a second)

[ellieg]

What history? And what the hell are you talking about? You think strategies don't apply to pvp? In pvp you cal literally look up what the best strategy is and follow the dance to the letter; nothing really changes because - guess what - it's all fucking scripted: you know what's going to happen and roughly when it's going to happen. On top of that, you've got addons warning you with sirens, flashing screens and what not.

I'm not saying mythic raiding is easy, because coordinating 20 dumb-fucks really isn't. But engaging in combat versus humans will always be more difficult because they can dynamically change strategies, behaviour, they can apply mind-games and do that which you least expect.

Heck, at this point I'm repeating myself, so agree to disagree.

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Yep, unless the thing they do is fun. Let's be honest, the best [pve] game you can think of isn't that much fun if you repeat it right after having completed it. Now imagine doing that every day, for months until something new comes out.

Exactly. Even pvp games. Like I play warzone and enjoy playing it. But I also enjoy leveling up guns. And getting wins on the leaderboard so I can flex on my friends. Without gun attachments to earn, battle pass tiers to progress, and leaderboard stats, I wouldn't play it near as much

[Shedaar]

It should definitely reward more loot.

[nocturnus]

It should definitely reward more loot.

Would you do m+ if it didn't award any loot? If not, why not?

[Progenitor Aquarius]

Why not?

(indulge me for a second)

What do you mean "why not?" Because I like to have something!

[nocturnus]

What do you mean "why not?" Because I like to have something!

Is that the only reason you do stuff in WoW? Because "you want something"?

Why wouldn't you do mythic plus if it didn't reward you with any loot; think about your answer for a second, before you hit reply.

[Shedaar]

Would you do m+ if it didn't award any loot? If not, why not?

Why should I participate in it then if it doesn't reward anything?

[nocturnus]

Why should I participate in it then if it doesn't reward anything?

haha, that's the question, isn't it?

Normal people in a normal game, would say: "Because it's fun!"

From the looks of it, barely anyone finds it any fun to do and only do it for the reward at the end, which is what Blizzard banks on and based their whole financial model on: addiction.

[Progenitor Aquarius]

Is that the only reason you do stuff in WoW? Because "you want something"?

Why wouldn't you do mythic plus if it didn't reward you with any loot; think about your answer for a second, before you hit reply.

I thought it's going to be a lovely conversation. It turned out to be a nasty bait. Something doesn't necessarily mean gear, it can be a cosmetic for example or any kind of reward for a 30 minutes time spent. Anyhow, I value time especially when the Jailer is on the loose we need to get equipment as soon as possible. Defeating our enemies is the key point in this game and that is indeed fun if that's what are you looking for. Last response, do not reply.

[kenn9530]

Simple.. Require a +20 KSM achievement to upgrade to mythic quality, or a bracket system since blizzard is implementing it's own r.io score

Its a terrible system if all you need to do is spam m+ and get max ilvl gear with no limit, gear is already far too easy to aquire as it should take at least 3-4 months to get fully geared but currently from nothing you can have everything you need in 1 month at most 2, not a great system when it takes very little time to gear up.

[Dzonathan]

haha, that's the question, isn't it?

Normal people in a normal game, would say: "Because it's fun!"

From the looks of it, barely anyone finds it any fun to do and only do it for the reward at the end, which is what Blizzard banks on and based their whole financial model on: addiction.

You... you don't know how RPG works do you? Levelling and gearing out in best gear possible is literally the point of the game.

[kenn9530]

i still don't have everything that's bis for me... i've done 2-3x choices in the vault every week since release... i still have pieces that aren't even 226...

And why do you need BiS items when you should be able to clear the content in less gear than you currently have, gear will start to get replaced in a few months and its not important to have full BiS as many 10/10m raiders dont even bother with it.

[Shedaar]

haha, that's the question, isn't it?

Normal people in a normal game, would say: "Because it's fun!"

From the looks of it, barely anyone finds it any fun to do and only do it for the reward at the end, which is what Blizzard banks on and based their whole financial model on: addiction.

I don't consider myself addicted.
For fun I go out with my friends or watch something silly on the TV.
I play WoW for achievements, progress and competetivness.

[kenn9530]

i push m+... you said it takes 1-2 months to fully gear up... i have done 2-3 choices on the vault since m+ season started... i'm still not fully geared with 226... much less bis...

It takes 1-2 months if you take advantage of all the ways you can gear, if you only focus on one area like m+ its your own fault you dont have more gear, a few ilvl makes no difference pushing keys anyway, if you done PvP you could have your 233 weapons and full 226 if you wanted, doing M+ only will never gear you properly geared the way you want.

Unless your close to pushing 25 keys atm then your just casual pushing.

[Tziva]

Cosmetics and mounts and titles worked in the past.

I mean, that depends on what your parameters are for defining "worked."

For one, CMs were completely ineffective at offering replayability. Very few players -- main just those selling boosts -- ran them again on the same character once golds were achieved for that reason. I'm not sure I would consider cosmetics a successful driver when characters never returned to that content after they had beat it once.

CMs also had much, much, much lower participation overall than M+. A much larger portion of the WoW population participates in the current iteration than did in CMs, and certainly they go there much much more frequently and will continue to do so for the life of the expansion.

I enjoyed CMs and did them on three characters (once each, aside from maybe a couple times helping friends), but it's hard for me to say it is a good thing to have content that is discarded immediately upon success. Their singular difficulty level also made it much less appealing to try on multiple classes where one might not be as proficient, not that every player has an arm of alts anyway. In contrast, I have already done hundreds of mythic plus runs on my characters; ranging from easy baby keys on my alts to pushing harder keys on my main. I will likely continue hundreds more through the expansion until the day the next expansion launches and I will continue to them on many characters, in the difficulty level appropriate for them.

WoW is an RPG. Character progression is important and what gameplay is centered around. Arbitrarily eliminating an option for that and replacing it exclusively with vanity rewards is a huge negative in trade for... exactly what gain?