I think mythic plus would work better if it didn't reward gear.

[Zyky]

I got your point. I disagreed. It had replayability in the concept of timed runs (titles for worlds fastest) as well as availability for alts to do it. Gear gets replaced, you can't earn the cosmetics CM's offered any more.

Except the world fastest timers were claimed and done with after a few weeks and they couldn't be broken. There was ZERO replayability for challenge modes outside of sales, period.

[nocturnus]

You... you don't know how RPG works do you? Levelling and gearing out in best gear possible is literally the point of the game.

It's hilarious to see people squirm when you ask them whether they would play a particular part of content if there wasn't any reward involved. That's because they don't want to admit they're exposing themselves to an activity they do not particularly enjoy only for the "carrot" at the end, which obviously makes them feel extremely stupid.

No. RPGs do not exclusively revolve around getting better gear. Character progression in the form of loot isn't even a defining part of RPG anymore, since it's been adapted by many other genres. Want to guess why? Ding ding ding, correct: because it keeps people hooked.

Story and immersion are arguably the most important part of the RPG genre.

You can deny it all you want, but if you wouldn't do content if it didn't reward gear, you're not enjoying the content, you're enjoying the dopamine rush of getting something new, is a pretty strong indicator of addiction. (also covered in the many books on addiction, be it game- or compulsive-buying addictions)

It's not uncommon for people to deny their addiction, so it's not like I was expecting to be inundated with enlightened responses of self-awareness. Keep your head securely tucked in the sand, if you want.

I thought it's going to be a lovely conversation. It turned out to be a nasty bait. Something doesn't necessarily mean gear, it can be a cosmetic for example or any kind of reward for a 30 minutes time spent. Anyhow, I value time especially when the Jailer is on the loose we need to get equipment as soon as possible. Defeating our enemies is the key point in this game and that is indeed fun if that's what are you looking for. Last response, do not reply.

Why a nasty bait? Asking questions is the Socratic way of increasing awareness; I'm not sorry that my questions force people to look into the mirror.

Whether it's gear, or cosmetic is irrelevant; it's still a reward and the fact that you need a reward for those 30 minutes spent indicates addiction. I value my time as well, which is why I spend my time doing things I enjoy, not doing things I don't enjoy for the possible reward at the end.

I don't consider myself addicted.

Addicted people usually do not consider themselves addicted, which is why the first step of most programs is to admit to that fact.

That said, I'm not saying you're addicted; I'm not aware of your patterns or behaviour.

[Devilyaki]

I disagree, it should just be removed

[Malania]

Except the world fastest timers were claimed and done with after a few weeks and they couldn't be broken. There was ZERO replayability for challenge modes outside of sales, period.

Fastest timers were per server and not ever server has a world top 100 guild on. There were lots where they changed frequently. Can we agree to disagree? I found replayability and others I know did too. It may not have been the mass appeal of m+ and the chase for bigger number gear but it offered rewards which avoided the current complaints about gear?

[Dzonathan]

It's hilarious to see people squirm when you ask them whether they would play a particular part of content if there wasn't any reward involved. That's because they don't want to admit they're exposing themselves to an activity they do not particularly enjoy only for the "carrot" at the end, which obviously makes them feel extremely stupid.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

Gearing yourself in best possible gear IS the activity that is particularly enjoyed. It's like orgasm after vigorous sex where you run your mouse over every slot and see perfectly mathematically calculated BiS piece that fills you with satisfaction knowing that you have decked out your character into being the best in can possibly be. It's like reaching the peak of the mountain you just climbed.

No. RPGs do not exclusively revolve around getting better gear. Character progression in the form of loot isn't even a defining part of RPG anymore, since it's been adapted by many other genres. Want to guess why? Ding ding ding, correct: because it keeps people hooked.

It's not core aspect but one of the core aspects.
Character progression in the form of loot has been defining part of RPG because RPGs did it first. The fact other game genres adopted it is irrelevant.
Want to guess why? Ding ding ding, correct: because you have no idea what you're talking about.

Story and immersion are arguably the most important part of the RPG genre.

You made my case for me.

You can deny it all you want, but if you wouldn't do content if it didn't reward gear, you're not enjoying the content, you're enjoying the dopamine rush of getting something new, is a pretty strong indicator of addiction. (also covered in the many books on addiction, be it game- or compulsive-buying addictions)

It's not uncommon for people to deny their addiction, so it's not like I was expecting to be inundated with enlightened responses of self-awareness. Keep your head securely tucked in the sand, if you want.

Get the fuck over yourself you armchair psychologist wannabe.
Your last paragraph excludes same energy as "to be fair" copy pasta and it's sad you're not aware of it.

[nocturnus]

You have no idea what you're talking about.

Gearing yourself in best possible gear IS the activity that is particularly enjoyed. It's like orgasm after vigorous sex where you run your mouse over every slot and see perfectly mathematically calculated BiS piece that fills you with satisfaction knowing that you have decked out your character into being the best in can possibly be. It's like reaching the peak of the mountain you just climbed.



It's not core aspect but one of the core aspects.
Character progression in the form of loot has been defining part of RPG because RPGs did it first. The fact other game genres adopted it is irrelevant.
Want to guess why? Ding ding ding, correct: because you have no idea what you're talking about.



You made my case for me.



Get the fuck over yourself you armchair psychologist wannabe.
Your last paragraph excludes same energy as "to be fair" copy pasta and it's sad you're not aware of it.

Sounds like I triggered someone that's suffering from that which I've been illustrating from the start and the fact that you're comparing anything in-game to sex, reinforces my case.

It's a shame you're this angry; it obfuscates your capacity to rationally think.

I'm basing what I wrote on actual literature, literature that is part of my daily job, because the psyche directly determines your hormonal house-hold and vice versa. But hey, feel free to believe whatever you want to believe. In the end, it's just a public forum and anyone can say anything, so I don't hold your skepticism against you. There's plenty of [free] literature on the subject, if you're actually interested in pulling your head out of the sand.

Or you can stay angry and ignorant, choose.

[Dzonathan]

Sounds like I triggered someone that's suffering from that which I've been illustrating from the start and the fact that you're comparing anything in-game to sex, reinforces my case.

It's a shame you're this angry; it obfuscates your capacity to rationally think.

I'm basing what I wrote on actual literature, literature that is part of my daily job, because the psyche directly determines your hormonal house-hold and vice versa. But hey, feel free to believe whatever you want to believe. In the end, it's just a public forum and anyone can say anything, so I don't hold your skepticism against you. There's plenty of [free] literature on the subject, if you're actually interested in pulling your head out of the sand.

Or you can stay angry and ignorant, choose.

You really need to get over yourself.

[Necromantic]

Absolutely a huge flaw, from our perspective. Not from Blizzard's [money making] perspective; it's all about keeping people subbing and you can bet your bottom dollar that they have a huge team of psychologists making sure they hit all appropriate nerves.

Either the company disagrees or creating a fix just isn't worth the money at this point. It's no secret that WoW isn't booming like it did in the days vanilla to LK. It doesn't have 12M subscribers to justify all the support/development staff to implement things. It's quite apparent with all the copy/pasted content, lack of control in said content, the fact that you can no longer talk to a person when you need help but have to submit tickets only to get a copy/pasted/automated response that does not help.

So while I do not fault them for not having the resources, some of the blatantly lazy stuff is annoying.

[Glorious Leader]

Well if better means dead content you are right i suppose

Thats what this proposed solution is really about. The feigned concern for the "stagnation" at keys around lvl 15 is fucking bullshit on the OPs part, he's just butt hurt mythic raiding isn't top dog anymore and the game has been offering an alternative for a couple expansions now. They nerfed it because of people like him complaining because well the developers are tools. Its just so easy to suggest other people's content shouldn't have good rewards. I can do it too. I don't think mythic raiding should award gear.

[Crimson Spears]

Thats what this proposed solution is really about. The feigned concern for the "stagnation" at keys around lvl 15 is fucking bullshit on the OPs part, he's just butt hurt mythic raiding isn't top dog anymore and the game has been offering an alternative for a couple expansions now. They nerfed it because of people like him complaining because well the developers are tools. Its just so easy to suggest other people's content shouldn't have good rewards. I can do it too. I don't think mythic raiding should award gear.

I mean you can read the op there isn't a need to create a strawman.

I just don't think the wide swath of difficulties actually works in theory it makes sense but in practice it leads to only low and capped keys being commonly ran with everything else struggling to fill. Human nature defeated it. It is why a 14 takes minutes at most to fill while a 13 can take up to half an hour and a 10-12 far longer.

I am talking about removing the progression element from the time attack mode and making it its own thing for people who want to push past the capped difficulty. I am not asking for something absurd like removing a key element to the content. If you removed gear from mythic raiding a tier would either last a month at most or it would need to be mathematically impossible without a buff like heroic lichking that required the dps from weapons he dropped to beat it without the buff.

[Glorious Leader]

I mean you can read the op there isn't a need to create a strawman.

I just don't think the wide swath of difficulties actually works in theory it makes sense but in practice it leads to only low and capped keys being commonly ran with everything else struggling to fill. Human nature defeated it. It is why a 14 takes minutes at most to fill while a 13 can take up to half an hour and a 10-12 far longer.

I am talking about removing the progression element from the time attack mode and making it its own thing for people who want to push past the capped difficulty. I am not asking for something absurd like removing a key element to the content. If you removed gear from mythic raiding a tier would either last a month at most or it would need to be mathematically impossible without a buff like heroic lichking that required the dps from weapons he dropped to beat it without the buff.

Your talking about getting the reward from that content so you don't feel compelled to do it Fuck that. A key element that is the gear you get from it. Now you've got a million objections as to why mythic raid gear shouldn't be removed but can't fathom why it would suck for people running m+ to have youbfuck with their rewards.

[nocturnus]

Either the company disagrees or creating a fix just isn't worth the money at this point. It's no secret that WoW isn't booming like it did in the days vanilla to LK. It doesn't have 12M subscribers to justify all the support/development staff to implement things. It's quite apparent with all the copy/pasted content, lack of control in said content, the fact that you can no longer talk to a person when you need help but have to submit tickets only to get a copy/pasted/automated response that does not help.

So while I do not fault them for not having the resources, some of the blatantly lazy stuff is annoying.

I'm not sure, mate. I don't think it's a resource problem, rather than counscious resource allocation. Sure, chances of wow having 12mil subs are very slim, then again WoW only had that amount of subs for a very short period of time. Subscriptions generally fluctuate between content-patches and expansions.

I think, with an emphasis on think, that their goals gradually shifted. While it's always been about making money, now it's about making money as efficiently as possible by exploiting psychological weaknesses. We've seen this behaviour in a wide variety of [relatively recent] games and genres, from candy crush, to fortnite to the traditinal mmorpg. It's the classic "shitty-bar gambling-device" strategy, incorporated in video game catered to people that are extremely susceptible to its draw.

Evidently, it works and it works really well.

[Necromantic]

I'm not sure, mate. I don't think it's a resource problem, rather than counscious resource allocation. Sure, chances of wow having 12mil subs are very slim, then again WoW only had that amount of subs for a very short period of time. Subscriptions generally fluctuate between content-patches and expansions.

I think, with an emphasis on think, that their goals gradually shifted. While it's always been about making money, now it's about making money as efficiently as possible by exploiting psychological weaknesses. We've seen this behaviour in a wide variety of [relatively recent] games and genres, from candy crush, to fortnite to the traditinal mmorpg. It's the classic "shitty-bar gambling-device" strategy, incorporated in video game catered to people that are extremely susceptible to its draw.

Evidently, it works and it works really well.

And it very well could be. The exploiting of gamer's weaknesses may make cash but it's very shady. I'm glad the whole Fortnite thing is fading. It was so sad to see all these adolescent/teenagers going nuts about "skins" and commonly seeing "you have to have this one for $15 or you're considered a complete noob". You're considered a "noob" for not having something completely aesthetic?

I was only going by my observations. Yeah like any business, it's all about making money but many of their decisions seem to be very unpopular. I think the customer service side is the biggest pet peeve of mine. When I could talk to an actual person, my issues got resolved fast and were clearly understood. When I submit a ticket for an issue and maybe 24 hours later, I get a response that has 100% nothing to do with my issue and it gets marked "resolved", there's a problem.

[nocturnus]

And it very well could be. The exploiting of gamer's weaknesses may make cash but it's very shady. I'm glad the whole Fortnite thing is fading. It was so sad to see all these adolescent/teenagers going nuts about "skins" and commonly seeing "you have to have this one for $15 or you're considered a complete noob". You're considered a "noob" for not having something completely aesthetic?

I was only going by my observations. Yeah like any business, it's all about making money but many of their decisions seem to be very unpopular. I think the customer service side is the biggest pet peeve of mine. When I could talk to an actual person, my issues got resolved fast and were clearly understood. When I submit a ticket for an issue and maybe 24 hours later, I get a response that has 100% nothing to do with my issue and it gets marked "resolved", there's a problem.

Oh there are definitely problems, in my opinion, WoW has more problems then redeeming qualities, which is why I don't play it. What do you mean with "very unpopular" decisions, though? Unpopular within the general audience? Within the vocal-minority that's active on forums, because believe it or not, we are the minority. I think WoW's still very, very popular, unfortunately. If it weren't, we'd see the subscription model go - that's always the first thing to bite the dust when a game is failing financially directly followed by a exodus of players.

[Necromantic]

Oh there are definitely problems, in my opinion, WoW has more problems then redeeming qualities, which is why I don't play it. What do you mean with "very unpopular" decisions, though? Unpopular within the general audience? Within the vocal-minority that's active on forums, because believe it or not, we are the minority. I think WoW's still very, very popular, unfortunately. If it weren't, we'd see the subscription model go - that's always the first thing to bite the dust when a game is failing financially directly followed by a exodus of players.

It's a double-edged sword, really. The "vocal minority" on the forums as some say it are still the vocal ones. For example, my company gives out surveys. We probably get 10% of them back. While that leaves out 90% of our customers, changes get made from the ones that do speak up.

While yes, the game itself is popular, I do mean some of the decisions they make. The only people who I've ever seen praise the new ticket system are the sycophants who hang out in the customer support forum and parrot the blues. You will never convince me that going from a system where you talk to a real person within minutes to a "robot" 24 hours later is better for customers, no matter how you try and rationalize it.

[nocturnus]

It's a double-edged sword, really. The "vocal minority" on the forums as some say it are still the vocal ones. For example, my company gives out surveys. We probably get 10% of them back. While that leaves out 90% of our customers, changes get made from the ones that do speak up.

While yes, the game itself is popular, I do mean some of the decisions they make. The only people who I've ever seen praise the new ticket system are the sycophants who hang out in the customer support forum and parrot the blues. You will never convince me that going from a system where you talk to a real person within minutes to a "robot" 24 hours later is better for customers, no matter how you try and rationalize it.

While you're right, I do think that the customer support issues are dwarfed by all other problems; how often do people need said support, after all?

I'm not experienced enough to make claims on how influential the vocal forum-dwelling minority is, but if you say Blizzard has based changes to the game and/or policy on forum opinions, I believe you.

[Progenitor Aquarius]

The keystones are quite competitive and fun. I think they could extend the ilv cap to 233 for finishing higher keys than 15, as it’s done in pvp. Maybe now it’s too early for that but hopefully it will be done in pre patch just to get us prepared for the new tier. I am improving so much in dungeons by slowly breaking new boundaries. I always been up for new challenges even if they did not provide power, there is always sense of satisfaction or achievement. Let’s take Mage Tower, Draenor challenge dungeons or Twisting Corridors for example.

[Evaddon]

Wow people already forgot about challenge modes? They rewarded cosmetics and styles, and very few people did it because it didn't reward power

[Aurrora]

No, Mythic+ provides a gameplay loop for those that don't want to raid.

Also, when Mythic+ was called Challenge Mode nobody did them.

[HolyCowBro]

Challenge modes were unsuccessful upon first implementation for a reason. Lack of power increase = lack of a reason to do it. Unless you were a devoted heroic (MoP) or mythic (end of Mop to WOD) raider looking for clout, that was basically the only reason to do them and acquire the cosmetic gear. They are pretty rare to see these days.