Blizzard trying to dictate what is "meaningful".

[munkeyinorbit]

But restrictions don't add meaning to it for me. No matter what I'm going to run the best conduits for the best spec 95% of the time. The choice is very simple and not interesting at all. The restrictions only stop me from playing off specs when I'm not raiding.

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Picking the best conduit and for the best spec and using that at all time is not interesting.

And that's the choice you make. You make a personal choice to not play offspec even if that is a help to your friends and or guild. By being stubborn and playing the boring way your meaningful choice is to be selfish.

[Aphrel]

Tbh, the conduit cd is a minor thing next to the big elephant in the room which is the big black rubber dido blizzard is shoving up our assholes next patch when they undo our entire covenant progress...

Why ppl arent more upset about that is beyond me.

They specifically said that they wouldn't retune shit because of how much time and effort players put into the covenants.
Then they proceed to do just that in the very first fucking patch leaving progress oriented players back on square one with not a single animapoint.

I made my meaningful choice when i picked the covenant that looked like the best option for raidprogression. Now my choice becomes useless...

Its mindboggling. Are they intentionally trying to kill their game?

[Spikeychris]

Tbh, the conduit cd is a minor thing next to the big elephant in the room which is the big black rubber dido blizzard is shoving up our assholes next patch when they undo our entire covenant progress...

Why ppl arent more upset about that is beyond me.

They specificly said that they wouldnt retune covenants because of how much time and effort players put into them.
Then they proceed to do just that in the very first fucking patch leaving progress oriented players back on square one with not a single animapoint.

Its mindboggling. Are they intentionally trying to kill their game?

Um the next patch adds more renown levels it doesn't reset you back to 1. So what exactly are they taking away?

On the original topic. It's their game? Also unless you are a top 0.01% world first level raider does the conduit thing really affect you THAT much?

[SirBeef]

They can do whatever they want with the game true. 100%. It's their game.

But they cannot tell me what is meaningful to me. They cannot tell me that Pet Battles are meaningful to me for example. It's meaningful for some people. But not to me.

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Different conduits are better for different situations. That's the point.

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It seems like the only people who like conduits energy are people who would never change their conduits anyway or people who don't play the game anymore.

They are not telling you what is meaningful. They are forcing you to make a choice. Always being optimal for every situation all the time isn't really making a choice. It becomes a mandatory obligation. Requiring players to make a decision on what to pick, makes you think about what you think is best overall. Part of being an RPG is making choices and knowing you will excell in areas you choices benefit but may not be as successful in other areas.

Just because you or others may not agree with this direction after many expansions of being able to always be optimal all the time doesn't mean 1, they are telling you what you think is meaningful, nor 2, a bad thing.

[Kaver]

They are not telling you what is meaningful. They are forcing you to make a choice. Always being optimal for every situation all the time isn't really making a choice. It becomes a mandatory obligation. Requiring players to make a decision on what to pick, makes you think about what you think is best overall. Part of being an RPG is making choices and knowing you will excell in areas you choices benefit but may not be as successful in other areas.

I don't think conduit achieve any of the above. A lot of people who are sayin they like the conduit restrictions are not really impacted by it since they wouldn't change there conduits anyway. So it's not really making the choice any more interesting. It only impacts players who actually runs out of conduit energy.

We really need to look at these systems case-by-case. In some cases restrictions are good, but in other cases they are pointless like with the conduit energy.

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so if most people don't change talents between bosses, as you say, then why do you think they would suddenly change conduits between bosses?

I don't think that. The point is that it wouldn't cause any problems to allow it. Restrictions should only be made if they are necessary.

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And that's the choice you make. You make a personal choice to not play offspec even if that is a help to your friends and or guild. By being stubborn and playing the boring way your meaningful choice is to be selfish.

It's an unnecessary to choice to have to make in the first place.

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Just because you don't understand what a meaningful choice is and that makes you mad doesn't mean blizzard cannot define what meaningful means. Because your so mad about it I think blizzard hit the nail on the head.

That's because it's meaningful to you. But it depends on the person.

Is transmog meaningful? Well that depends who you ask.

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Yeah because its their game and they want to that, so no you are wrong they are doing that. You can just fuck off if you dont like it like everyone else. Is not like this is law or anything.
This is like saying im watching tvshow about the severe impact of gaming on peopls life, i dont think its a severe impact, and than keep complaining and watching it.


Imagine if they put in transmog at all while there is a population that against it. Oh wait, it almost like its not uniform decision and different games cater to different people and not all people like one specific game

Blizzard can do whatever they want with their game.

But they cannot dictate what is meaningful to people. Is mount farming meaningful? Well that depends who you ask.

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So you want a themepark game to be a sandbox game?

Pretty much yes.

[erifwodahs]

My only complaint with this is that conduit energy is absolutely meaningless for some and then very limiting for others and covenant lock legit takes away fun - you can't use a ability which is meaningful if you chose ability which is fun in other content.
There are no repercussions for playing one type of content, but hey, get fucked if you like to enjoy more than 30% of the game.

[Doffen]

To me putting restriction on conduits and then calling it "meaningful" would be same as if they only allowed you to change transmog once every year because then it would be more meaningful.

What I'm trying to say is that Blizzard should provide the players with opportunities and then let the players figure out for themselves what they find meaningful or not. Just let us enjoy the game the way we want to enjoy the game. Within reason of course.

But they do give you choices.

It all boils down to that you dont like the choices. I do, so who should they listen to? And don't say us players, I say they let me enjoy the game I want because I like the Covenants. Though I am getting a WoW fatigue. The Covenants and raiding is the only thing that keeps me playing. Shame SL didnt come before BfA.

But, would it be cool to have more choices within each Covenant? Sure! Personalizing it more would be great.

[Kaver]

It's not fun to play the game if half of your game is spent waiting for other people to optimize. Maybe that's what they're trying to fix, and not your incessant need to be optimal?

Conduits are a weird place to start since it's one of the easiest choices in the game.

Also, the myth that people are waiting around for other people to optimize during raid time is just not true.

Most of you are probably not even impacted by this at all.

[Noctiphobia]

I agree with thread name, because game is extremely "on a rails" now, i.e. we have just illusion of choice, not real choice. But I don't agree with your arguments. All this restrictions are made, because some players tend to mimic top players. We already have that "Why can't we swap covenants for every spec, because it gives me +0.00000001% of effectiveness and other players reject me, if I don't have it?" whines. Same here. If players would be able to swap conduits - they would do it. And it's just extra unnecessary load.

The difference is that you usually don't feel conduits that much. But some covenants just feel very bad for some specs or in some content. Like, Chain Harvest feels very good on Enh Shaman, but feels bad on other specs. It's not just a matter of numbers - although they may contribute to the feeling. And it also doesn't feel very good to bring down my entire group just because I mainly play another spec or another type of content.
I'm just not sure where's the fun of having to play with an ability that doesn't synergize with my spec at all. I get it that having players change everything for every single encounter sucks, but now we're going into the other extreme.

[ippollite]

Im so confused about a few things in this thread. The first one is this. OP acknowledges the playerbase have different priorities (as individuals) and will make choices based on them. Yet simultaneously complains they dont have a choice but to focus on power. Dude, you HAVE that choice. I mean, you'd be nuts likely to do it. But you'd probably also be nuts to play a spec/class that isnt meta as well? I play sin rogue. Always have. Never gonna change. I spent late November through January either at the foot of the mythic deeps table or bottom 3. I COULD have just rolled outlaw, but im that player who strongly identifies with their dumb baby's-first-rogue spec. I just like how it plays.

So you had better believe i couldnt give a crap about the meta game and chose my covenant on grounds you'd likely find idiotic. Semi tangent and on that note, i was watching asmon react to preach and ions chat, and there was this wonderful moment... "NO ONE CARES!!! NO ONE LEVELS UP AN ALT JUST TO RUN WORLD QUESTS!!!"

um... i do... im so sorry about it. But my alts appear when i get bored or (pretty much) cap out my main for the current content.

So, im literal proof of your first point. We arent all motivated by the same things. A meaningful choice for me isnt the same as a meaningful choice for you.
But im so many spanners in the works on the follow up: I CHOSE aesthetics, fun, and story because its meaningful to me. By your argument, im just as trapped in this choice as you are. I couldnt choose otherwise because i dont wanna. I have fun playing sin. I like the night elf/tyrande story. Ive loved her since i first heard her shout "WE ARE WASTING TIME!!!!" in legion (it makes me smile every time, i cant explain it). Ive been in love with night elves since my first character started in aldrassil. Original darkshore is my secret favorite zone. On top of this, in cata when i saw all those night elf catapults in felwood, i genuinely thought the nelves had finally awoken and were taking the fight to the horde. I really love my hippy bredren. So please believe me, i had ZERO choice but to choose ardenweald. The maldraxxus story was way better. The bastion zones were more beautiful. Revendreth is cooler (though theres no way im running that vertical maze without a flying mount). But i so want my tyrande story. How could i choose anything else? Blizzard literally made it so i had ZERO choice. Its not my fault they failed to make the other zones and factions as captivating. Blizzard literally FORCED me into ardenweald by making the other stories less tied into all the story elements i love about wow. They DEPRIVED ME of choice... and that's how you sound in my head.

So either accept that you made a choice because power isnt the only thing (you CHOSE power over fun and aesthetics). Or accept that power is the only rational choice and stop crying about feeling deprived about your apparent 'lack' of choice because power is the only actual choice (making everything else secondary and lesser in importance to you and your, er, choice).

Are you running plus 20s and need every advantage available to you? Is power and sims really important to you? THEN CHOOSE THE ONE WITH THE MOST POWER for heavens sake! Thats YOUR priorities in game. Make your choice and stand by it. Im sorry you cant see its meaningful. But its meaningful PRECISELY because you prioritised something which i (your opposite), couldnt care less about. Im sorry that the game thrusts you into a world of competition to the point where the person making the power decision defines themselves against the players who dont. Im sorry, many other players will also make that same decision for rank forcing you to look for extra advantages elsewhere. And im sorry that given all things being equal, you might have to just play better.

Or reroll another class and find the advantage elsewhere by being a meta spec? ...I mean, the expansion is super alt friendly.

[Kaver]

I do, so who should they listen to?

But I bet it's because you wouldn't change your conduits anyway. It's easy to say that a restriction is good if it doesn't have any impact on you.

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OP acknowledges the playerbase have different priorities (as individuals) and will make choices based on them. Yet simultaneously complains they dont have a choice but to focus on power. Dude, you HAVE that choice.

I'm saying it's not an interesting choice. If they have to add restrictions to something then pick something which is actually impactful.

[ippollite]

Yeah, okay. So it goes. I still made a choice though on grounds you didnt. I COULD have chosen otherwise though, right?

[erifwodahs]

I'll be honest, I have no idea what conduit energy is or what the big deal is. And I raid mythic and do keys every week.

different specs tho?

[ippollite]

Yeah, okay. So it goes. I still made a choice though on grounds you didnt. I COULD have chosen otherwise though, right?

Also, if its not impactful, why are you complaining?

[Popokolara]

When you have to choose to be good in 1 thing and bad in another, you convert the skill=result to skill+arbitrary limitation=result. I cannot fathom why some people believe this arbitrary external limitation to be the epitome of rpg design. Nonono i dont mean the excuse of "its how it always has been" because if thats the case we should scrap 50% of modern systems as well. But the actual nuance between system a and system b.

Having an IMPACTFUL DAMAGE CONTROL is what really is happening, and for some reason people worship it. Having an arbitrary "You there! get -30% st dmg because you have 30% more aoe." vs "show me how well you can wield both a bow and a shield".

[ippollite]

Could it be because you actually find it impactful and so feel torn in your choice?

[Kaver]

Honestly, this is a very "you"-centric opinion.

That's because I'm trying to make the point that "meaningful" is a subjective term and depends on who you ask. You cant just say that something is universally meaningful. Is transmog meaningful? It depends who you ask. Would it make transmog more meaningful if you could only change it once every month?

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Could it be because you actually find it impactful and so feel torn in your choice?

No it's because you cannot play off specs.

Most people who are saying the restrictions are good are not even impacted by those restrictions.

For example you... if you only play Assa Rogue no matter what then your choice is already made. The restriction have no impact on your choice.

[Popokolara]

Could it be because you actually find it impactful and so feel torn in your choice?

impacful does not equal good. i also cannot understand why people make all these arguments of cyclical nature and do not grasp the final, ultimate and stripped down meaning.

I am limited from being able to compete on proper ground if i want to do different types of content.
Why is it good, if i want to do arena and m+ and raid, to have one of the three a bit gimped? it can be very impactfull, regardless of skill level and competition level. it forces me to do damage control. But why is it preferable, to being judge solely on my ability to perform for example?


Meaningful: serious, important, or worthwhile.
In the context of it affecting things. in the context of justifying its own existence? This is not an argument, this word. The contexual narrative of what you achieve with it is. And this is the cognitive trick of blizzard marketing to make people come on board.

Is it impactful? very much so.
Is the limitation of not being able to properly setup for multiple contents, to play with HANDICAPS a worthwhile state? a good situation?

[Aphrel]

Um the next patch adds more renown levels it doesn't reset you back to 1. So what exactly are they taking away?

On the original topic. It's their game? Also unless you are a top 0.01% world first level raider does the conduit thing really affect you THAT much?

I picked the covenant that was the best for raidprogression.

It wont be the best next patch.

Therefore progress lost. back on square one in a new covenant.

Meaningfull choice become... meaningless.

[skynet1990]

Content feels too shallow atm at least for me its like grinding for the chest every ID because that is where I get the best loot anyway as I unfortunately dont have time for mythic progression anymore. I like farming some Transmog even recolors although i am not too keen on farming them. Gearing is a big turndown and I hope this will be overworked in the future. M+ is not rewarding enough to play it as much as in Legion or BFA. Valor Points are ok unless you have bad luck and replace that sweet upgraded item with a slightly better one from the chest next id.