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  1. #101
    As Ion stated in the interview, it's a huge inconvenience to be expected to swap for literally everything you fight. Even with being able to swap then and there, you'd still be wasting time doing it constantly until an addon is swapping for you - and at that point, what's the point of talents if not the choice in having builds where you differ play from others of your spec? If we get rid of what is meaningful of talents, then you effectively may as well not have them at all. This would result in so much homogenization people would complain that everyone plays their spec absolutely the same, because of course they would there wouldn't be any talents effectively at that point.

    If you decry for the elimination of convenience for this kind of swapping you're either inadvertently asking for homogenization or a destruction of the entire system. It's fine if you think it'd be a better personal experience, but there is another section of the community who understandably sees things completely the other way and would if anything want more variety and options to customize their play than not having any options at all. On bleeding edge customization seems like a fever dream, and hell even casuals nowadays feel pressured to optimize things like Covenants, but I'd argue people would just complain about lack of gameplay variety if they all played the same. The illusion of choice still has to be there to satisfy the user even if the choice is being made with numbers for them.

  2. #102
    they should have just made it to where each soulbind has a different conduit set up for each spec

    for those of you who dont play multiple specs:
    no matter what blizzard tells you some classes use the same soulbind for different specs
    each spec has different conduits
    swapping out the conduits takes up over half of your conduit energy

    blizzard currently has the solution of "well we have 3 soulbinds" ignoring the fact that they are not equal
    this leads to players feeling punished for wanting to play multiple specs and be optimal in doing so which is something a majority of players dont do or think about and in fact most of the people praising this system probably havent swapped conduits in months and will call those who criticize this system "min maxers taking away our meaningful choice" like a gem slot you looked up the best choice for is so meaningful in the first place

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    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    As Ion stated in the interview, it's a huge inconvenience to be expected to swap for literally everything you fight. Even with being able to swap then and there, you'd still be wasting time doing it constantly until an addon is swapping for you - and at that point, what's the point of talents if not the choice in having builds where you differ play from others of your spec? If we get rid of what is meaningful of talents, then you effectively may as well not have them at all. This would result in so much homogenization people would complain that everyone plays their spec absolutely the same, because of course they would there wouldn't be any talents effectively at that point.

    If you decry for the elimination of convenience for this kind of swapping you're either inadvertently asking for homogenization or a destruction of the entire system. It's fine if you think it'd be a better personal experience, but there is another section of the community who understandably sees things completely the other way and would if anything want more variety and options to customize their play than not having any options at all. On bleeding edge customization seems like a fever dream, and hell even casuals nowadays feel pressured to optimize things like Covenants, but I'd argue people would just complain about lack of gameplay variety if they all played the same. The illusion of choice still has to be there to satisfy the user even if the choice is being made with numbers for them.
    its more saying "hey dont punish me for wanting to play differently depending on the situation"

    you mention talents...we can swap them with tomes so why not let us do that with the gem sockets that improve one ability...theres sooooo much meaningful choice behind "do i want to do 5% more dps here or not" especially when the inconvenience can be solved by the player saying NO

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    but I'd argue people would just complain about lack of gameplay variety
    But lack of gameplay variety is a problem even now. This is one of the reason why I complain about conduits not being swappable: Because most of them offers no gameplay variety. They are just passive talents that increases an arbitrary ability by x%.

    If Blizzard had only designed conduits to offer gameplay variety (e.g performance vs. forgiveness) then I would be much more accepting of the system. But I cant accept them offering us these lackluster passive talents and then trying to manipulate us into thinking that they give us a meaningful choice.

  4. #104
    Herald of the Titans Alroxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Different conduits are better for different situations. That's the point.
    And there we have it folks: "given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game"

    Where do you draw the line then? Should we be able to freely switch talents during a M+ dungeon? Or how about gear swapping in M+ so that I can use BOTH a set of ST trinkets and AoE trinkets "depending on the situation"?
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  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    And there we have it folks: "given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game"

    Where do you draw the line then? Should we be able to freely switch talents during a M+ dungeon? Or how about gear swapping in M+ so that I can use BOTH a set of ST trinkets and AoE trinkets "depending on the situation"?
    At least don't draw the line at conduits which are just boring passive talents. If they don't want conduits to be another talent row that people swap between bosses then they should design them as such. Make the conduits offer variety of gameplay instead of just increasing an arbitrary ability by x%.

  6. #106
    I'm only a scrub that is halfway through heroic CN, so take that into consideration in my opinion.
    I honestly find no interest whatsoever in any of these choices. Even if I could swap conduits constantly and without having to go back to my sanctuum, I probably wouldn't even bother other than say, switch to focus on ST burst when we are progging through sludgefist, but for 99% of my experience, I'll just look at the recommended general setup, stick to it, and never look into it again.

    I like talent trees that have a big, flashy, difference in how my spells works, but I couldn't care less about some +x% increases, I personally find no enjoyment in that kind of increase outside of gear and I could make do without the extra systems. A system where conduits progressively allow me to just visually change my spells one at a time to make them look like they are empowered by my covenant's anima would be so much cooler.

  7. #107
    Herald of the Titans Alroxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    At least don't draw the line at conduits which are just boring passive talents. If they don't want conduits to be another talent row that people swap between bosses then they should design them as such. Make the conduits offer variety of gameplay instead of just increasing an arbitrary ability by x%.
    That's a difficult sell as well. If we nerf conduits to the point where they aren't relevant then it won't matter which ones you stick in.

    Additionally, even non-combat boosting conduits have a DPS value. Who wouldn't want a faster interrupt CD or a shorter CD on XYZ ability (even if it's a defensive?)
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  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Most people didn't do that.

    Most people don't change talents between bosses.

    And they could just make conduits changeable by a Tome like talents. No Hearthing out.

    Conduits are just passive increases to abilities. They are not complex in anyway and changing them wont slow the raid down anymore than changing talents.
    What?

    Literally every single person did this. Are you crazy?

  9. #109
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    Some people (me included) are trying to min-max their characters. If conduits were freely swappable, it means that those people feel forced to optimize their character before every boss. That's already the case with talents. So that would just be more burden in gameplay.

    Right now conduits are optimized for progression bosses. This is good design.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Isiolia View Post
    Actually, Blizzard trying to dictate what is meaningful in their game is totally legitimate as it is, you know, their game. And they're the one shaping the rules of this game.
    Just because they make the game, that doesn't know they automatically know what the players want.

    It's one of the main things I put FFXIV above WoW over (Outside of story and some aspects of content overall). The FFXIV devs listen. The WoW devs DON'T!

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Orwell7 View Post
    Is this peak capitalism?
    When a freakin ENTERTAINMENT company tells you what to enjoy!
    this here is the point you (and a lot of other people) seem not to understand, they dont tell you what to enjoy, they serve you the game as they made it, and if you dont enjoy it you should LEAVE ffs

    wanting them to change the game to your taste is equivalent of going into vegetarian restaurant and demanding steak - its not your choice what they will sell, however its your choice if you want to have it or if you will go elsewhere...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Orwell7 View Post
    It used the be the other way around, when companies served users to get their money.
    was it? as far as i remember it was developers making games the way they decided, and players buying the game or not, thats it, no other options for players... when was this magical time when they changed games according to every whim of every player?
    that actualy got better with developers, blizzard included have feedback and if they see it as a good idea they do change game accordingly (and yes they do, just bcs they didnt change it according to YOUR feedback doesnt mean they ignore feedback)

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Isiolia View Post
    Actually, Blizzard trying to dictate what is meaningful in their game is totally legitimate as it is, you know, their game. And they're the one shaping the rules of this game.
    Its true. Its also true that tons of companies go out of business because they make incredibly bad decisions. Massive companies like Sears go belly up because they refuse to listen to their customers for years. Tons of restaurants go out of business, then there is In and Out burger which hires a large waitstaff and serve a simple, fresh menu and people go nuts for the product. You would think other restaurants would copy In and Out. But, nope.

    In the restaurant business, people want simple menus and fresh ingredients. But tons of restaurants just don't get it.

    In video games, people want social, but Blizzard just doesn't get it. They offer solo. They offer multiplayer. But not social. And WoW is withering away like Sears.
    Last edited by Kokolums; 2021-04-28 at 04:43 PM.
    TO FIX WOW:1. smaller server sizes & server-only LFG awarding satchels, so elite players help others. 2. "helper builds" with loom powers - talent trees so elite players cast buffs on low level players XP gain, HP/mana, regen, damage, etc. 3. "helper ilvl" scoring how much you help others. 4. observer games like in SC to watch/chat (like twitch but with MORE DETAILS & inside the wow UI) 5. guild leagues to compete with rival guilds for progression (with observer mode).6. jackpot world mobs.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    It's one of the main things I put FFXIV above WoW over (Outside of story and some aspects of content overall). The FFXIV devs listen. The WoW devs DON'T!
    they do, perhaps they dont listen to the feedback YOU AGREE WITH but they do listen...

  14. #114
    Merely a Setback Adam Jensen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orwell7 View Post
    Is this peak capitalism?
    When a freakin ENTERTAINMENT company tells you what to enjoy! It used the be the other way around, when companies served users to get their money.
    And this shows why the gaming industry is gone to the way it is, because designers of games are butthurt children who get offended if someone does not like their products. So they insist until the sales go down and then cry about being misunderstood and "too progressive" or whatever.

    I'll grab my popcorn tho
    Welcome to the Brave New World.
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  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Orwell7 View Post
    because designers of games are butthurt children who get offended if someone does not like their products
    This may well be the most ironic sentence ever uttered on MMOC.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    they do, perhaps they dont listen to the feedback YOU AGREE WITH but they do listen...
    Save me from this "you" bullshit. Lots of people quit WoW over the BS imbalance between classes, borrowed power systems, etc. Covenants need updating, and lots of other shit still needs work in WoW. Korthia could be good, but that's to be determined. The stuff with Torghast, nobody liked to hear from Ion, and overall it just feels like they're not just reinventing the game so they could add in some BS shit no one wants, but they're also fixing issues that never existed to begin with, while also ignoring the blatant issues that still exist.

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    Funny, cause I still play WoW, so my dumbass is forced to experience this shit game design up front.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    Its true. Its also true that tons of companies go out of business because they make incredibly bad decisions. Massive companies like Sears go belly up because they refuse to listen to their customers for years. Tons of restaurants go out of business, then there is In and Out burger which hires a large waitstaff and serve a simple, fresh menu and people go nuts for the product. You would think other restaurants would copy In and Out. But, nope.

    In the restaurant business, people want simple menus and fresh ingredients. But tons of restaurants just don't get it.

    In video games, people want social, but Blizzard just doesn't get it. They offer solo. They offer multiplayer. But not social. And WoW is withering away like Sears.
    Sure, of course, people want social. It's so easy for Blizzard, because people want that.
    There is definitely nobody playing WoW asking for solo content, right? Why would they? They want social. Got ya'.

    Good thing you know what people want. Maybe try for world peace next?

  18. #118
    Funny, becouse the ones that really trying to dictate whats meaningful are some of the players, they also love to claim alot more then Blizzard that they speak for everyone.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashenhoof View Post
    Sure, of course, people want social. It's so easy for Blizzard, because people want that.
    There is definitely nobody playing WoW asking for solo content, right? Why would they? They want social. Got ya'.

    Good thing you know what people want. Maybe try for world peace next?
    The overwhelming majority of players have quit wow at this point. Trying to please the few that remain isn't gonna work. So when you focus on what the current players want, you are starting with the wrong question right off the bat.
    TO FIX WOW:1. smaller server sizes & server-only LFG awarding satchels, so elite players help others. 2. "helper builds" with loom powers - talent trees so elite players cast buffs on low level players XP gain, HP/mana, regen, damage, etc. 3. "helper ilvl" scoring how much you help others. 4. observer games like in SC to watch/chat (like twitch but with MORE DETAILS & inside the wow UI) 5. guild leagues to compete with rival guilds for progression (with observer mode).6. jackpot world mobs.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    Lots of people quit WoW
    this is where known facts ends in your comment and bullshit starts, this is all we know, that lots of people left wow, and thats true about EVERY expansion, vanilla included

    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    The stuff with Torghast, nobody liked to hear from Ion
    interesting, bcs if you go to wowhead to article about torghast changes you can se A LOT of people happy about the change... seems like you are one of the "i know best and everyone who disagree is wrong" people, so im not gonna waste more time with you, its pointless, people like you never learn they are not center of the universe

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