Winter Queen's Sister Reveal (Spoilers)

[Super Dickmann]

No, it doesn't. We already knew she was capable of having relationships, we've met her son and his father in person, neither of which is anywhere near her level. It does not give us any idea of where she is powerwise even if you assume she's similar to the Winter Queen, as we don't actually know the Winter Queen's power level either, and there's no guarantee they're actually on the same level.

We learn next to nothing about Elune from all this other than that there is some connection between her and the Winter Queen and the latter sees her as family.

Her children are semi-mythical. The Moon (Goddess) didn't literally bang a deer to make the first keepers. None have ever addressed her in the familial way the Winter Queen does and a parent-child dynamic is different from a sibling one. Siblings evoke the relatively same level. We know that the Winter Queen is strained by the effort of raising Ysera. Now, you can mention that Elune was already measured in BFA by way of the Leatherworking quests and how all she did was numb the night elves burnt up rather than interfere directly, but both of these are vague enough and don't involve humanizing the character. Both making her be the goddess of more than the night elves and making her sister (whom she's dubious enough of to call Ysera a pet) a prominent character lean towards explaining Elune and making her an active actor rather than a behind the scenes unexplained one.

[lostdrewid]

There's so much we don't know and frankly I love it. We're pealing back the mysteries one by one, and people are *invested* as fuck as to spend page after page arguing about it on the internet, and yet there's still just a ton of people dismissing it as "bad writing". 'Kay. {Not saying *all* the writing in Warcraft is good. Not by a long shot. But this aspect of the story? Oh yes, I'm enjoying this.}

Personally I love the parallels between Eonar and Elune, and I've always wondered about whether they were one in the same, echoes of each other, one being an aspect of the other, or something along those lines. Though the revelation that Elune is very definitely worshiped *as Elune* on other worlds across the Great Black [Fyzandi being one example] at the very least put the kibosh on the idea that Elune could be Night Elves' name for Eonar. I used to play Werewolf: the Apocalypse a lot and for a while it felt like Elune might even be the sort of spiritual imprint left by Eonar's existence [her Umbral reflection, that game would call her, and the unintentional pun made me love the theory even more].

I'm not sure which I believe now, but we may be so close to learning the truth that I'm not yet willing to commit to a new theory, but I still love these reveals. Qadarin and Thiernax are, so far, just about my favorite new additions to the lore this expansion, second only to the Winter Queen herself.

My only concern about the direction this is going in is that it feels like we're getting Pantheon-level beings for every facet of creation... Order has one in the Titans; Death has the Eternal ones; the Light arguably has one in the Naaru; the Void has the Void Lords. If Life also has one, it leaves only Chaos/Fel without a pantheon of their own, since it was Sargeras who championed their cause. But even here we *might* already have our dodge. A Fallen Titan went on to lead Chaos, broken Naaru become Void Gods which certainly seem related to Void Lords, and both the Winter Queen and Elune now might be Eternal Ones who blur the line between the gods of life and death. So maybe instead of six Pantheons there are really only three, with members able to flip alignments through some major inciting incident.

[Houle]

Big difference between the titans and the first ones:

The First ones created the cosmos

The Titans (as the Pantheon of Order) ordered the cosmos to their liking.

Mortals not knowing any better (remember, we view the lore from the in game mortals point of view), attributed things done by the First Ones to the Titans.

this is true in the current lore. again, im not talking about that.
the first ones are what the titans used to be in the OLD LORE. before chronicles and now SL. before titans were confirmed to be walking worlds. before azeroth itself was made into a titan.
you remember that, or are you too new to the game?
because back then, it was official lore that the TITANS were the big dogs. not just assumed to be by our ingame-characters, but written by the writers like that. they had the exact same role in the lore that the first ones have now.

we even interacted with them like we do know with the first ones: we heard about them in old legends, and discovered long-lost, ancient relics and ruins from them. meeting one in person was unfathomable.

[Engal]

I think Khadghar was wrong. Remember we see lore from the point of view of mortals. It tends to change quite a bit to what they think is what is the truth - its not retconning, it simply discovering stuff. Just like how we in real life come to new conclusions about what is what. I picked the Twin Empire time as that is apparently the moment that Dark Trolls Ascended into Night Elfs - so at this point Elune started to interfere with mortal life in our realm.

Though of course her ascension to godhood could indeed be hundred or thousand years prior to that, and she could still have created the Naaru.

Who do we say is now responsible for the Great Ordering of Light and Shadow? Is this the First Ones (who supposedly created the light and the shadow), or the Pantheon of Order (the Titans) who went about ordering what the

No no, there is nothing as " Kadghar was wrong " ,

Kadghar was quoting a book, and blizzard is not subtle. If they threw this in a quest, it's most likely what happenned, they rarely do red herrings as of now.

Moreover, the Ordering of the cosmos by the titans is not the same thing as " The Great Ordering of Light and Shadow "

We know with Chronicles that the Cosmos was born from a clash between light and void. During this Era, the First Ones ordered the cosmos to make the Light and Shadow stable, to end an age of Chaos. They shaped it. Creating and ordering the different cosmos power we know, building the shadowlands, balancing the power, creating the Naarus ( for example )

Way after, the titans, as power of Order, decided to Order the planets and stuff they saw, on a whole smaller scale. Both are not the same thing.

It's like you ( First Ones ) building a whole fortress, and after that a bunch of lower being ( Titans) came and ordered the differents rooms of a specific area of this fortress. Not the same scale nor the same goal.

[Doffen]

how can you knock someone from a seat they never sat on tho?

sorry to burst ur fanboy bubble my friend, but her being the most powerful being in the universe was just ur headcanon all those years.
no proof or even real indication of that ever existed.
in fact, most things point to the opposite right now

1. It was a joke.
2. Never said she was. I said I was hoping she could be.
3. Most thing do in fact point to the opposite now after that reveal. Man, it's like Einstein level the shit you come up with.
4. Your signature is the most ironic shit I've read in a while lol.

[Houle]

1. It was a joke.
2. Never said she was. I said I was hoping she could be.
3. Most thing do in fact point to the opposite now after that reveal. Man, it's like Einstein level the shit you come up with.
4. Your signature is the most ironic shit I've read in a while lol.

and still...it seems i archieved exactly what it says

[Magical Mudcrab]

"Sargaras was also always the strongest of the Titans that’s why he was in charge of fighting the twisting neither." He was the Champion, yeah. But during Aggramar's battle with Sargeras, they were essentially even, with Aggramar only losing because of Sargeras' fel power slowly weakening the Titan buddy. ;(

This is a strange embellishment that is blatantly false. I would refer people to Chronicle Vol. 1, page 49. There was no struggle, they were not even. Sargeras quickly overpowered Aggramar. The power of Fel was credited for being a major reason for this, but Sargeras and Aggramar were explicitly stated to have had a mentor/student relationship, which implies Sargeras was both his senior and likely both more powerful by virtue of this experience. It took all Aggramar had to shatter their blades, which left Aggramar heavily wounded and Sargeras seemingly unharmed as he immediately proceeded to destroy the Pantheon after this.

[Rockefellah]

this is true in the current lore. again, im not talking about that.
the first ones are what the titans used to be in the OLD LORE. before chronicles and now SL. before titans were confirmed to be walking worlds. before azeroth itself was made into a titan.
you remember that, or are you too new to the game?

Well yeah that goes for all lore - in the beginning there were only Orcs and Humans (Warcraft I) and none of it was planned out by the devs...

because back then, it was official lore that the TITANS were the big dogs. not just assumed to be by our ingame-characters, but written by the writers like that. they had the exact same role in the lore that the first ones have now.

we even interacted with them like we do know with the first ones: we heard about them in old legends, and discovered long-lost, ancient relics and ruins from them. meeting one in person was unfathomable.

I concur, indeed now its the first ones who are shrouded in mystery, where as we know quite a bit about the Titans from the various interactions we had with Titan Keepers, the various Installations we discovered and the brief interaction with the Titans themselves.

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No no, there is nothing as " Kadghar was wrong " ,

Kadghar was quoting a book, and blizzard is not subtle. If they threw this in a quest, it's most likely what happenned, they rarely do red herrings as of now.

Fine then the book could be wrong :P.

Moreover, the Ordering of the cosmos by the titans is not the same thing as " The Great Ordering of Light and Shadow "

We know with Chronicles that the Cosmos was born from a clash between light and void. During this Era, the First Ones ordered the cosmos to make the Light and Shadow stable, to end an age of Chaos. They shaped it. Creating and ordering the different cosmos power we know, building the shadowlands, balancing the power, creating the Naarus ( for example )

Way after, the titans, as power of Order, decided to Order the planets and stuff they saw, on a whole smaller scale. Both are not the same thing.

It's like you ( First Ones ) building a whole fortress, and after that a bunch of lower being ( Titans) came and ordered the different rooms of a specific area of this fortress. Not the same scale nor the same goal.

I conquer with the scaling difference. But who is to say that the Titans followed the plan of the First Ones. Following the metaphor, what if the First Ones ordered a specific area in a certain way to fit their grand design, but the Titans saw it as chaotic, and decided to reorder it to their liking - and as a result the grand design became flawed?

[Doffen]

and still...it seems i archieved exactly what it says

At least you live by your own words, or motto, or just a simple signature. All respect for that.

[Rockefellah]

It doesn't exactly mean she's her sister though.... NE in general call all fellow female NEs "sisters". Its a phrase we've heard in WoW since Vanilla from the NEs. Though of course the Winter Queen isn't a NE but it wouldn't shock me that beings of similar faiths or lifestyles would use the same phrases....

True, could just mean "kin" - but that would still make Elune a (former) member of the Pantheon of Death

[TheFirstOnes]

This is a strange embellishment that is blatantly false. I would refer people to Chronicle Vol. 1, page 49. There was no struggle, they were not even. Sargeras quickly overpowered Aggramar. The power of Fel was credited for being a major reason for this, but Sargeras and Aggramar were explicitly stated to have had a mentor/student relationship, which implies Sargeras was both his senior and likely both more powerful by virtue of this experience. It took all Aggramar had to shatter their blades, which left Aggramar heavily wounded and Sargeras seemingly unharmed as he immediately proceeded to destroy the Pantheon after this.

Yeah, except it only states Aggramar was outmatched due to him being susceptible to the Fel. Nothing really implies Sargeras regularly outmatched him at the time, outside of the Fel Amps, despite the Student/Mentor relationship.

Sargeras dismantled the Titans the same way Zovaal is currently dismantling the Pantheon of Death. Sargeras had the Fel, Zovaal has Domination.

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this is true in the current lore. again, im not talking about that.
the first ones are what the titans used to be in the OLD LORE. before chronicles and now SL. before titans were confirmed to be walking worlds. before azeroth itself was made into a titan.
you remember that, or are you too new to the game?
because back then, it was official lore that the TITANS were the big dogs. not just assumed to be by our ingame-characters, but written by the writers like that. they had the exact same role in the lore that the first ones have now.

we even interacted with them like we do know with the first ones: we heard about them in old legends, and discovered long-lost, ancient relics and ruins from them. meeting one in person was unfathomable.

No no no. What he said was not right in current lore. He got the Void Lords and Elune WAY too high

[TheFirstOnes]

Big difference between the titans and the first ones:

The First ones created the cosmos

The Titans (as the Pantheon of Order) ordered the cosmos to their liking.

Mortals not knowing any better (remember, we view the lore from the in game mortals point of view), attributed things done by the First Ones to the Titans.

Now if the Winter Queen is on the level of a titan (as being part of the Pantheon of Death), and Elune is her sister and is an Upstart Goddess. To me it then makes sense that Elune was on the level of a titan and has since then been ascended. Likely she is not on the level of the First Ones, but she is likely stronger then a titan level entity.

First Ones

Void Lords / Light Counter part?

Elune somewhere here?

Titans (Order) / Eternal Ones (including the Winter Queen) (Death) / Wild Gods (is Hakkar a Wild God?) (Life) / Burning Legion (Disorder) / Naaru (Light) / Old Gods (Shadow - Void)

Titan Keepers

Elemental Lords / Dragon Aspects

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I think Khadghar was wrong. Remember we see lore from the point of view of mortals. It tends to change quite a bit to what they think is what is the truth - its not retconning, it simply discovering stuff. Just like how we in real life come to new conclusions about what is what. I picked the Twin Empire time as that is apparently the moment that Dark Trolls Ascended into Night Elfs - so at this point Elune started to interfere with mortal life in our realm.

Though of course her ascension to godhood could indeed be hundred or thousand years prior to that, and she could still have created the Naaru.

Who do we say is now responsible for the Great Ordering of Light and Shadow? Is this the First Ones (who supposedly created the light and the shadow), or the Pantheon of Order (the Titans) who went about ordering what the

I've discussed what "upstart goddess" could mean...

And how tf do you have the Wild Gods and the fuckin Old Gods on the same lvl as the Titans? They're way below that? How do you have the Void Lords (The Pantheon of SHADOW) above the Titans? What in the hell?

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Well yeah that goes for all lore - in the beginning there were only Orcs and Humans (Warcraft I) and none of it was planned out by the devs...



I concur, indeed now its the first ones who are shrouded in mystery, where as we know quite a bit about the Titans from the various interactions we had with Titan Keepers, the various Installations we discovered and the brief interaction with the Titans themselves.

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Fine then the book could be wrong :P.



I conquer with the scaling difference. But who is to say that the Titans followed the plan of the First Ones. Following the metaphor, what if the First Ones ordered a specific area in a certain way to fit their grand design, but the Titans saw it as chaotic, and decided to reorder it to their liking - and as a result the grand design became flawed?

Stop. Putting. The First Ones. As. Order. Only. Beings!

[huth]

True, could just mean "kin" - but that would still make Elune a (former) member of the Pantheon of Death

From what we've learned so far, it seems more likely this relationship precedes her settling in Ardenweald.

[Magical Mudcrab]

Yeah, except it only states Aggramar was outmatched due to him being susceptible to the Fel. Nothing really implies Sargeras regularly outmatched him at the time, outside of the Fel Amps, despite the Student/Mentor relationship.

Sargeras dismantled the Titans the same way Zovaal is currently dismantling the Pantheon of Death. Sargeras had the Fel, Zovaal has Domination.

No, your initital assertion was that Aggramar was only outmatched because of Fel and stated that Aggramar only lost because Sargeras had the Fel, implying that Sargeras would lose otherwise, which is simply your own headcanon. Fel made the fight decidedly one-sided, but Sargeras and Aggramar had a mentor/student relationship, with Sargeras being the mentor. Regarding Sargeras' use of Fel, this is in no way analogous to Zovaal's use of domination magic, that is also simply headcanon. Sargeras used Fel magic in a direct confrontation to destroy the Pantheon, which Zovaal has not done. Until Zovaal faces the Pantheon of Death in a 1v4 and completely overwhelms them with that magic, they aren't even remotely similar.

[rainhard]

Sargeras dismantled the Titans the same way Zovaal is currently dismantling the Pantheon of Death. Sargeras had the Fel, Zovaal has Domination.

I think fel and domination situations are pretty different, fel is the direct opposite of arcane and one of the six cosmic forces, sargeras was also the only one who wielded fel but when talking about the pantheon of death the primus also seems to be able to wield domination magic and more creatively, empowering all that armour of ours and being capable of making frostmourne and the helm of domination. Do we even know what domination is and how it came to be?

[TheFirstOnes]

No, your initital assertion was that Aggramar was only outmatched because of Fel and stated that Aggramar only lost because Sargeras had the Fel, implying that Sargeras would lose otherwise, which is simply your own headcanon. Fel made the fight decidedly one-sided, but Sargeras and Aggramar had a mentor/student relationship, with Sargeras being the mentor. Regarding Sargeras' use of Fel, this is in no way analogous to Zovaal's use of domination magic, that is also simply headcanon. Sargeras used Fel magic in a direct confrontation to destroy the Pantheon, which Zovaal has not done. Until Zovaal faces the Pantheon of Death in a 1v4 and completely overwhelms them with that magic, they aren't even remotely similar.

Yeah, no. Chronicle states the Fel was what made Sargeras straight up beat Aggramar, etc. Not saying the fight would’ve been 100% match per match without the Fel, but they would’ve been far more equal.

Never said Fel and Domination were analogous with eachother. Only said the methods used for them were kinda similar.

“Sargeras used Fel magic in a direct confrontation to destroy the Pantheon, which Zovaal has not done.”

Except he did, through Anduin. Hell, Zovaal himself initially defeats the Primus and his Memory Magic’s using his power in the 9.1 questline. So, no.

“Unless we see Zovaal defeat the other Eternal Ones with domination, they are not similar”

Like I said, not similar. But both Sargeras and the Jailer were similar in that they defeated their members using Magic’s that are against them, which is true. Domination Magic’s are legit destroying the Eternal Ones (lol Anduin), and the Fel weakened and dismantled the Titans due to Fel being very effective against those of Arcane.

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I think fel and domination situations are pretty different, fel is the direct opposite of arcane and one of the six cosmic forces, sargeras was also the only one who wielded fel but when talking about the pantheon of death the primus also seems to be able to wield domination magic and more creatively, empowering all that armour of ours and being capable of making frostmourne and the helm of domination. Do we even know what domination is and how it came to be?

Domination was made by the Primus to imprison Zovaal and keep him in chains. Zovaal mastered it and went from there. Also, the Runecarver (AKA the Primus) used memory Magic’s to craft our Legendaries. We learn this in 9.1. Tho, it likely could’ve been a mix between that and Domination Magic’s also, since the armor is also said to be domination.

[Magical Mudcrab]

Yeah, no. Chronicle states the Fel was what made Sargeras straight up beat Aggramar, etc. Not saying the fight would’ve been 100% match per match without the Fel, but they would’ve been far more equal.

Sure, and if that is what you meant that's fine. My only objection was to the implications made in the initial statement.

[El Gucaragua]

Ysera is much more Eonar's pet than Elune's. She (like the other aspects) was turned into a dragon in the first place by the titan pantheon, her power was specifically a blessing from Eonar, she was put to sleep and put in charge of the Emerald Dream by Eonar, who's the one who largely oversaw it's creation. I think people often forget, but Elune herself is not really much of a druid god, where druidism is the entire thing Ysera was built around--her son Cenarius is (and he's implied to get that druid connection from his father, Malorne who was involved with the dream and the powers of the wild)

Really Ysera's only involvement, at all, with Elune was Elune basically killing/cleansing her in Val'sharah, something that happens at a temple to Elune when her favorite priestess is there.

So combined with the fact that the Eternal Ones are continually described as being a similar thing to the titan pantheon and of a similar level and make, it made much more sense that Ysera's owner and WQ's sister was Eonar, who is basically a mirrored "life" reflection of the Winter Queen, does the other half of taking care of nature, and is the one who effectively made and employed Ysera, than Elune, who has always been depicted as something not really anything like a Titan or Eternal One, and has almost no connection to Ysera.

Nah bro but the cinematics said it so that means that's correct and really really good.

Honestly this entire reveal just seems ridiculous.

[geco]

same question as to hightlord, where? the arcane stuff was explained away by it being titan blood not Elune, she hasn't done any nature stuff i can think of other then sleep with a deer, and no death I can think of other then divine intervention which falls to light or soothing of pain which also falls to light.

The only thing he did for the Light was heal a Naru.

If we go to the subject then he only did things for the Shadow because she gives power to the wardens.

He gives his "Normal" priestesses Arcane-nature powers.

All of her worship is about nature, she has various wild gods as demi-gods and she heals Yesra and the Diadras over and over again. The hara where his followers go is the place where those who follow nature go. And his favorite animal is those owl guys.

yeah, no. they showed nothing of the sort. she just wasnt explained. doesnt even remotely mean shes something above all else. a lot of things werent mentioned in chronicles.
the eternal ones. the jailer. hell, hakkars origins are still unknown and not explained in chronicles, and hes definitely not "above everyone"

im talking about what the titans used to be, obviously, not when they were turned into creatures of "order"
before this whole thing with "cosmic forces" where everyone gets their own pantheon and whatever.

back then, the titans were simply these big, godlike creator-type figures, who made and ordered the cosmos. seriously, look up some old lore. basically exactly what the first ones are implied to be now.

You realize that you are saying things that were not part of the Lore.
What "important" thing about the Lore that was already known from Cronicas is almost completely ignored.
Elune.

The book that is supposed to explain all the lode to you so far does not explain anything about Elune.

hakkers would be another mystery but in truth it is another wild god. He must have a similar origin.

[TheFirstOnes]

Sure, and if that is what you meant that's fine. My only objection was to the implications made in the initial statement.

Yeah, implications I kinda wanked Aggramar a little, but my point was that the Fel was that decided Sargeras' victory, and not so much his overall power (Though, knowing the Fel, it also likely Amp'd Sargeras' current power).

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It's possible, and as you approach the apex of the metacosm perhaps the distinctions between Light and Life and the other primordial essences become a lot more fuzzy.

Yeah. Not to mention Life (Especially if you represent Spring and Summer, and the blossoming of Life waxing) has had ties with the Light before. Druids specifically wield the powers of nature, and use Starblasts, and other Cosmic-esc abilities.