Why skilled player got so mad about casual getting better loot?

[Echo of Soul]

I've played every xpac for 16 years. Thats great that you don't care because u raid. But that dsnt change the fact that casuals have never had a gearing process that allowed them to work towards the best gear at a slower pace without doing the hardest content

I never said anything about casuals getting the best gear, that's what you projected. In the past we've had systems where casuals could get the second best gear in the game essentially drip fed through things like reputations or badges/valor points. I don't think most reasonable people would ask for something to return and then demand that what we had wasn't good enough. One piece of the second best gear every 1-2 weeks depending on the slot (some slots were more expensive than others) from a currency that you can cap weekly from doing LFG/LFR/WQ content, the casuals just want that back since it gave them a clear and satisfying progression path. Other very popular MMORPGs are doing it successfully without the hardcore players getting furious, why should WoW be any different?

[ellieg]

I never said anything about casuals getting the best gear, that's what you projected. In the past we've had systems where casuals could get the second best gear in the game essentially drip fed through things like reputations or badges/valor points. I don't think most reasonable people would ask for something to return and then demand that what we had wasn't good enough. One piece of the second best gear every 1-2 weeks depending on the slot (some slots were more expensive than others) from a currency that you can cap weekly from doing LFG/LFR/WQ content, the casuals just want that back since it gave them a clear and satisfying progression path. Other very popular MMORPGs are doing it successfully without the hardcore players getting furious, why should WoW be any different?

Let's recap. Someone made an analogy about how a CEO gets better stuff than a mailbox clerk. Someone responded saying that the mailbox clerk still earns money and this can get nice stuff too just at a slower rate. I reply to that comment saying the mail room clerk will never have a mansion, yacht, and Lamborghini like the ceo does. You reply that CEO analogy is silly and other games have systems that allows players to casually acquire gear. Based on the fact that u were replying to my comment about never having the best stuff, I assumed u were talking about earning the best gear thru a casual system. I replied thar this has never been the case in wow and u shld play those other games instead.

As for the other part of your comment, ~200 ilvl gear u acquire now casually, is on the same tier as gear u would've earned woth badges. And instead of 3 or so pieces, u get 9. The problem with it is you acquire it entirely too fast. Which I made a thread about slowing the rate down and got nothing but pushback lol

[ippollite]

To be frank while mythic 0 is easy bosses gain the ability to kill people who outright ignore them. That level of difficulty was proven to much for the average wow player back in cata,

What say you if i said we have upwards of 20 difficulty levels with whatever difficulty curve you wanted to apply (linear/exponential, a mix of the two?). Im a teacher (well, crypto teacher - esl - but with 15 years experience), and my job is literally to provide early success and raise the bar/challenge (in mythic plus terms - im gonna congratulate you for those first 5 levels from a) using any english, to understanding what you're getting at. b) making a sentence, to making a grammatically correct sentence; and c) making a complex but understandable sentence to punishing you for incredibly mild grammatical errors.)

Linear is dumb. 'It demotivates 'the players'. Exponential is correct. It's appropriate and reward success at lower levels (i understood you). At the medium level, i can do this! (keep encouraging them!). At the highest level they dont want to be patronised and will see through it. They WANT to be tested. They want to show their ability.

Below this, you shut them down and hold them to that standard, they gonna shut down (you can critique, but you need to be nevertheless, encouraging). At the lowest level, any critique is... FUCK YOU. FUCK THIS. I DONT EVEN KNOW WHY I BOTHERED!

Thats the exponential curve.

[ellieg]

Let's look at wrath. You could get 2 emblem of frost from daily dungeon. Thats 14 a week. I think there was a weekly quest for I believe 5? So 19 a week for casuals.

With this gear you could get 264 ilvl. 277 was what ud consider shadowlands 226. So 264 would be 213.

Available pieces were a trinket, a relic/thrown item, a cloak, chest, hands, and waist. 5 slots, 2 sharing with tier slots. Tier slots u could buy with emblem of frost for the 251 version.

So with best currency, you were looking at 4 pieces if what wld be now, 213, and 2 pieces of what would be now 200.

Trinket was 60. Waist was 60. Cloak was 50. Relic 30. Tier gear 60 each. You could also farm unlimited valor for 251 pts, what would be roughly equal to the cov gear today. These slots were relic (u already get 1 from frost), cloak (u already get one from frost), ring, bracers, boots.

If you did the daily dungeon literally everyday without missing any days, you'd get enough badges for the 60 emblem cost gear in 3.15 weeks. The 50 emblem gear in 2.6 weeks. And the 30 emblem relic in 1.6 weeks. Assuming you miss a few days every now and then, that's a piece every 4 weeks on average.

So in wrath ud get 3 pieces of 251, 2 tier pieces of 251, and 4 pieces of 264.

In shadowlands, you get 9 pieces of 197 (roughly the 251 equivalent, even had set bonuses), a 235 lego, world boss for chance of 207, epic callings for chance of 203, and every 7 or so weeks a quest for a random 213 piece.

The problem is not really the amount of gear or the ilvl of it, its the fact that you get the cov gear near Instantly. The lego within 4 weeks that ppl seem to forget about. A quest for 213 thats every 7 or so weeks ppl forget abt and I admit, is rng.

Its obviously not exactly the same but overall gear for casuals is roughly the same level. Just more slots at slightly lower ilvl, 1 slot above what ld be considered 285 in wrath, and a few mid tier pieces. The problem is the pacing

[Echocho]

With this gear you could get 264 ilvl. 277 was what ud consider shadowlands 226. So 264 would be 213.

264 was the second best gear in the game. 213 isn't even close to being the second best.

[roboscorcher]

I agree but that's a different system. Catch up mechanics are different than high end rewards. Rewards in the game are equal to effort involved. You can see the same content in LFR and be rewarded for it. The rewards are just scaled appropriately for the effort involved.

Interesting you say that because several streamers say that LFR can be harder to do than organized raiding. And I definitely agree with that notion, the lack of coordination actually makes multiplayer content harder.

Being in a real raiding guild is great, but there are so many obstacles to finding a good one, and the gear disparity in the current game only makes it worse. Than there's the fact that raidgear isn't that special anymore, and all loot is personal loot, and now the raiding scene sucks. I had way more fun raiding in classic than retail, even though the combat was janky, simply and we needed to get 40 players a week. The bar to entry was simple and straightforward: get your pre-raid bis.

[Tadkins]

Everyone who pugs have trouble finding groups. Including "high rio" players... Depending on my luck I sometimes look for groups for 1h+ even at 1800 rio. Sometimes I find it instantly. In the end it's not about trouble, it's about if you can pug these things to get the gear you want, which you can. Don't get me wrong, looking for groups are boring af, but that's something everyone has to do.

With me it's a fear of pugging, terrified of making mistakes in front of other people and getting yelled at/insulted for it. I don't have the thickest of skins or the greatest social skills, admittedly. It's why I'm trying to find a sympathetic community before I decide to come back to the game, first.

I'm one of the few people from the RIO community who are objective. "Find a guild" is just a very poor response. It's like when someone tells a homeless guy "just go get a job, you lazy bum!" without knowing all the circumstances surrounding that person. While it sounds all easy to do, some tasks are not as feasible for some.

I greatly appreciate that answer. Folks love to just throw others to the wolves without really wanting to think about it. They don't realize what is easy for them might be hard for others.

Been in at least a couple dozen guilds throughout my time in WoW. Many I just didn't click with. Some I did click with but would fall apart anyway due to hiatuses and whatnot. The cycle is difficult and tiring. Meanwhile I'm looking at folks who've been with the same guild and have had the same community since EverQuest and all through Vanilla WoW and today, and I look at them with awe and envy lols.

- - - Updated - - -

Being in a real raiding guild is great, but there are so many obstacles to finding a good one, and the gear disparity in the current game only makes it worse. Than there's the fact that raidgear isn't that special anymore, and all loot is personal loot, and now the raiding scene sucks. I had way more fun raiding in classic than retail, even though the combat was janky, simply and we needed to get 40 players a week. The bar to entry was simple and straightforward: get your pre-raid bis.

I just didn't like the fact that I would have an extremely difficult time getting to raid as a shadow priest in Classic, that I'd have to conform to being a healer if I wanted to see raid content. But I do appreciate that it was far simpler there than it was on retail. You actually get to fight bosses in Classic, not play DDR with them.

[smityx]

Damn loot queens. Getting free stuff for not working. Could be worse. The LFR'icans could be coming to steal yer raid spots and sending the loot back home.

[kenn9530]

264 was the second best gear in the game. 213 isn't even close to being the second best.

Players should only be rewarded for the content they do, they should never get the best items unless they do the content that rewards it, gear is supposed to be at least a little hard to get for the average player but still gear is way too easy to get. Why should a player be rewarded with stronger items just for doing casual content as that makes no sense.

A player that only does heroic raiding will have half thier gear with 220 items so the player will be between 213-220 itlvl which is more than enough to take part in all content.

A vendor for M+ might be nice and only allow you to buy the items if you have completed all the dungeons and only buy gear appropriate to your highest dungeon overall key level.

[Crimson Spears]

What say you if i said we have upwards of 20 difficulty levels with whatever difficulty curve you wanted to apply (linear/exponential, a mix of the two?). Im a teacher (well, crypto teacher - esl - but with 15 years experience), and my job is literally to provide early success and raise the bar/challenge (in mythic plus terms - im gonna congratulate you for those first 5 levels from a) using any english, to understanding what you're getting at. b) making a sentence, to making a grammatically correct sentence; and c) making a complex but understandable sentence to punishing you for incredibly mild grammatical errors.)

Linear is dumb. 'It demotivates 'the players'. Exponential is correct. It's appropriate and reward success at lower levels (i understood you). At the medium level, i can do this! (keep encouraging them!). At the highest level they dont want to be patronised and will see through it. They WANT to be tested. They want to show their ability.

Below this, you shut them down and hold them to that standard, they gonna shut down (you can critique, but you need to be nevertheless, encouraging). At the lowest level, any critique is... FUCK YOU. FUCK THIS. I DONT EVEN KNOW WHY I BOTHERED!

Thats the exponential curve.

The problem is the player base gets to decide where they start on that curve. Currently with mythic+ There are a lot of players between 0-5 keys and a TON of players in 14-15 keys. The in-between is nearly dead and most of the frustration on these forums and in game is from people trying to skip to 14-15 keys without having any prior expereince.

If there was a outside system that barred players from trying to queue to far ahead of themselves solo I think your idea could work but as it stands I think keys should work on far fewer difficulties rather then more.

[Echocho]

Players should only be rewarded for the content they do, they should never get the best items unless they do the content that rewards it, gear is supposed to be at least a little hard to get for the average player but still gear is way too easy to get. Why should a player be rewarded with stronger items just for doing casual content as that makes no sense.

A player that only does heroic raiding will have half thier gear with 220 items so the player will be between 213-220 itlvl which is more than enough to take part in all content.

A vendor for M+ might be nice and only allow you to buy the items if you have completed all the dungeons and only buy gear appropriate to your highest dungeon overall key level.

Because it worked like that in the past? Because other MMORPGs are doing it?

Second best gear, not best

[kenn9530]

Because it worked like that in the past? Because other MMORPGs are doing it?

Second best gear, not best

Why should you get even the second best gear if you dont do the content that rewards it, gear should require at least some effort to aquire and not just by doing casual content like HCs, WQs and random BGs, you only need that gear when your doing the harder content so thats where you earn it, 220 ilvl is easy to get it just requires you to put in some effort.

I believe in being rewarded by putting some effort into the game and then being rewarded, not by doing casual content and getting high level items.

[Tadkins]

Why should you get even the second best gear if you dont do the content that rewards it, gear should require at least some effort to aquire and not just by doing casual content like HCs, WQs and random BGs, you only need that gear when your doing the harder content so thats where you earn it, 220 ilvl is easy to get it just requires you to put in some effort.

I believe in being rewarded by putting some effort into the game and then being rewarded, not by doing casual content and getting high level items.

When the players who don't get to do that content aren't progressing, and have nothing to do but sit there and feel like a second class citizen in the game, what then? Folks are already leaving in droves. Is that healthy for the game?

[Osmeric]

When the players who don't get to do that content aren't progressing, and have nothing to do but sit there and feel like a second class citizen in the game, what then? Folks are already leaving in droves. Is that healthy for the game?

The Loot Puritans feel that rewarding only according to accomplishment is morally correct, and that the morally correct approach will somehow become the practically successful game design approach. That last part is the "and then a miracle occurs" step.

[kenn9530]

When the players who don't get to do that content aren't progressing, and have nothing to do but sit there and feel like a second class citizen in the game, what then? Folks are already leaving in droves. Is that healthy for the game?

It wouldnt matter anyway if your fully geared or not, your still going to get destroyed in PvP if you lack the skill anyway, if your not skilled enough to do heroic raiding or high m+ then gear is irrelevant in PvP, WoW is an MMO where you need to play with others and gear should always be rewarded for doing the appropriate content, why should players get better gear just by doing the casual content WoW has.

Even raiders at some point stop progressing in gear and progress, you either keep playing or take a break.

[Tadkins]

The Loot Puritans feel that rewarding only according to accomplishment is morally correct, and that the morally correct approach will somehow become the practically successful game design approach. That last part is the "and then a miracle occurs" step.

Yup, well said.

It wouldnt matter anyway if your fully geared or not, your still going to get destroyed in PvP if you lack the skill anyway, if your not skilled enough to do heroic raiding or high m+ then gear is irrelevant in PvP, WoW is an MMO where you need to play with others and gear should always be rewarded for doing the appropriate content, why should players get better gear just by doing the casual content WoW has.

Even raiders at some point stop progressing in gear and progress, you either keep playing or take a break.

If someone is unskilled, what does it matter if they're allowed to collect gear on their own? They'll just supposedly get destroyed anyway, right? What are you afraid of?

Wouldn't it be in your best interest to see a game where there is a place for everyone? It means your content gets funded.

[kenn9530]

Yup, well said.



If someone is unskilled, what does it matter if they're allowed to collect gear on their own? They'll just supposedly get destroyed anyway, right? What are you afraid of?

Wouldn't it be in your best interest to see a game where there is a place for everyone? It means your content gets funded.

I believe in being rewarded for the amount of effort you put into the game, if your not doing more challenging content and not pushing yourself even a little then why should you get items of higher power, it should be difficult to get item upgrades and should require effort so you actually earn it, its stupid easy to get gear just playing casually.

For a solo player WoW is a terrible game, if your not willing to make friends for whatever reason then its not the game to play. Everytime i have played casual and not raiding i stopped playing within few months.

[Tadkins]

I believe in being rewarded for the amount of effort you put into the game, if your not doing more challenging content and not pushing yourself even a little then why should you get items of higher power, it should be difficult to get item upgrades and should require effort so you actually earn it, its stupid easy to get gear just playing casually.

For a solo player WoW is a terrible game, if your not willing to make friends for whatever reason then its not the game to play. Everytime i have played casual and not raiding i stopped playing within few months.

Someone working hard on their own to slowly acquire decent gear is not effort to you? Why does it matter that someone by themselves is able to acquire a decent set by themselves? Does it really affect you that much? They're paying a sub and helping to fund your content.

Not everyone has legions of friends and not everyone is able to break into the tough group content.

[Soon-TM]

it stinks to high heaven when mythic raiders start selling runs and gear to whoever can pay gold to get it. Pretty much gets rid of the argument that mythic gear is 'meaningful' when anyone with the gold can buy it.

Good point. Maybe all these hardcore folks don't want their fellow players to get decent gear, even if it takes longer for them, because the whole carry business would literally implode. And chances are that Blizz doesn't want that to happen either, maybe because those tokens aren't going to sell themselves, after all.

[Crimson Spears]

Good point. Maybe all these hardcore folks don't want their fellow players to get decent gear, even if it takes longer for them, because the whole carry business would literally implode. And chances are that Blizz doesn't want that to happen either, maybe because those tokens aren't going to sell themselves, after all.

Hey now the carry business was built off of good old fashion loathing of your fellow human being. Its our last sad pathetic scratching at a ground that has ground us into a shadow of ourselves. Why take that away from us?