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  1. #21
    Would be nice.

    But id settle with just removing all the time gatings.

    Like, for real. The maw woudlve been so much more fun if i couldve just blasted away and farmed rares and cleaned out every corner fo it during the first week of wow. Grinded out that venari rep like a maniac.

    But instead the maw is possibly one of the most boring thing ive done in my life. It was genuinly more exciting to clean up my apartment, do dishes or washing than doing the maw dailies for 20 minutes a day stretched out for 3months.

    Same with Torgast, i played more Torgast on beta with no rewards than i did on live with rewards. Why? because the beta didnt have arbitrary gatings. On beta i could grind out all 8 portals up to their highest difficulty over a weekend. Spending perhaps 30+hours in there and still having challenges left to overcome that i at the time couldn't overcome in the useless premade gear we had.

    But when it was released on live servers... after 2 hours there was nothing left to do. Timegating made it dead on arrival.

    I know my opinion doesnt apply to all players, some players doesnt want to play the game and would rather have less to do ingame.
    But when a new expansion launches i want to play wow, i want to play the content. But everything is locked away, hidden behind timegatings.

    Hmm, i got a little offtracks. as to OP. Nah, i dont think we need shortcuts, just remove the timegatings and i will blast my way throu the cotnent and ill be having a blast doing it.
    Last edited by Aphrel; 2021-05-03 at 09:02 AM.
    None of us really changes over time. We only become more fully what we are.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    Food for thought. Would WoW function better if there was an extremely high difficulty mode for content that once cleared instantly rewarded all of that modes progression?

    For example say you beat wizard mode torghast. You unlock all leggo patterns and soul ash is instantly fulfilled for all future crafting. Lets say you get all your keystones done at level 20 suddenly all your conduits are filled.

    That was the high end player base isn't dragged into other people's progression systems and muck them all up for both parties, while by the same token wizard mode would be hard enough only a small fraction of the playerbase could do it keeping that progression relevant for others.
    This only works in single-player games. MMOs are by design built to take as long as possible to milk as much money as possible without scaring away people. Everything we complain about is by design to take longer. No flying with new expansion? By design, so we take longer to level. They will try to make us believe that it's for "world building", hahaha. Like do you not realize that most game devs are in business for 20+ years by now? A lot of those "mistakes" are not mistakes, they are conscious decisions to make us play and pay longer. Time-gating so we don't consume fast enough, explained by the devs so we have time to "enjoy" all the content. All MMOs are the same in that regard, they never respect our time, at all.

  3. #23
    I missread the title and expected something way more interesting
    You are welcome, Metzen. I hope you won't fuck up my underground expansion idea.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by testsubjectzz View Post
    Like other post, if you unlock everything then why would you continue playing.
    That's the incorrect statement to make when it comes to arduous grinds that feel terrible. Nobody is saying they get a full set of gear, they're saying remove the shit grinds for garbage systems that Blizzard refuses to remove that nobody wants to be a part of.
    Quote Originally Posted by scarecrowz View Post
    Trust me.

    Zyky is better than you.

  5. #25
    Immortal Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FuxieDK View Post
    All the kids will whine to mummy that Wizard mode is too hard, and then Mums with Creditcards will complain to Blizzard, and Blizzard will cave in and nerf the difficulty..

    We have seen that a thousand times, when they add hard content.
    Of course. MMOs don't make their money if the content is too hard for most people.
    And WoW's entire history has been considered to be a casual friendly MMO since Vanilla.

    Remember, anything the add to the game tons of people worked on and if too few people see it the question becomes why pay for the time developing if people don't do it? Harder content is always going to be optional content, it will likely never be tied to actual progression in the game.
    Last edited by Darththeo; 2021-05-03 at 10:14 AM.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  6. #26
    I am Murloc! Wangming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XDurionX View Post
    According to these very forums, nobody has been enjoying wow for at least 15 years now.
    Really? Odysseus most really like this game.

  7. #27
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    Never going to happen.

    If Blizzard doesn't timegate content and big surprise they've been doing it since Vanilla (instance id resets are a form of timegating) players will simply quit once they got all the stuff and people will no life it until they do.

    WoW is a reward driven game and either they timegate stuff or make the grind infinite like with AP.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    I missread the title and expected something way more interesting
    Same here. Dunno why this is wizard mode.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    Food for thought. Would WoW function better if there was an extremely high difficulty mode for content that once cleared instantly rewarded all of that modes progression?

    For example say you beat wizard mode torghast. You unlock all leggo patterns and soul ash is instantly fulfilled for all future crafting. Lets say you get all your keystones done at level 20 suddenly all your conduits are filled.

    That was the high end player base isn't dragged into other people's progression systems and muck them all up for both parties, while by the same token wizard mode would be hard enough only a small fraction of the playerbase could do it keeping that progression relevant for others.
    Yes.

    Ion said it himself. Content which is won by design feels like a chore. If you go into content already knowing that you're going to win and get what you want then it's no engaging. This is why Netflix is required to play a lot of content in WOW.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Drusin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by testsubjectzz View Post
    Like other post, if you unlock everything then why would you continue playing.
    Because you enjoy playing
    Sometimes I think that I shouldn't play things because of the rewards but because it's fun and I sometimes wounder if the studio lost track of the game and what made it fun. A delicate line to walk on for sure! :O

    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    Curious, why is it called "Wizard" mode?
    Would assume it's because you "poof" get everything when done? I've no idea and would like to know myself

    Also, to complete this "wizard" mode, would you not need whatever it provides? It sounds to me that it's just a difficult variant of something, to get things you'd need to complete it in the first place? Or maybe I'm just missing something...
    Well met!
    Quote Originally Posted by Iem View Post
    Man even if Blizzard gave players bars of gold, they would complain that they were too heavy.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by ippollite View Post
    Im curious what the actual benefit is though to anyone but 'the small fraction' are though? I mean, its not like y'all are going to suddenly stop telling everyone to L2P or whatever? Like, what is it we're actually getting out of this? Has the difficulty or challenge of all content below that point been lowered or something? Or do you mean the challenge goes up because the hardcore no longer need to do their busy work? Like how does this help someone running their +6 anyway? What do you mean here? It seems like im not really getting much out of this deal, whilst youre making out like a bandit.
    i dont understand why u personally have to gain anything out of it? why not just stop and consider what he is saying without involving your own personal greed in the equation?

  12. #32
    Okay, let me put it another way, what is the benefit to the rest of the game?

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Zephire View Post
    Sometimes I think that I shouldn't play things because of the rewards but because it's fun and I sometimes wounder if the studio lost track of the game and what made it fun. A delicate line to walk on for sure! :O


    Would assume it's because you "poof" get everything when done? I've no idea and would like to know myself

    Also, to complete this "wizard" mode, would you not need whatever it provides? It sounds to me that it's just a difficult variant of something, to get things you'd need to complete it in the first place? Or maybe I'm just missing something...
    u dont need all the conduits to get +20's done. and even if u did need 3 conduit at 226 ilvl to do them, it would gain u all the other utility ones, for example. Legendary farming is atrocious with the RNG, took me 3 +14 runs, and 62 heroic runs to get my Earth shield legendary. if i could just do a harder version of torghast to acquire it, it would be 100% preferred over spamming heroics for an entire weekend.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ippollite View Post
    Okay, let me put it another way, what is the benefit to the rest of the game?
    the benefit would be that there is a different way to acquire certain items outside of grinding super casual content for them 1 at a time. this would mainly benefit the higher end player in the term of benefits. but would also give the more mediocre players a reason to strive for +20's instead of +14's, for example. motivation to improve and strive for higher content. Personally i havent touched high M+ in SL, there are many reasons why, but the main reason is that I dont need to do them, so there has been no reason for me to bother to learn the dungeons properly, all i need is all keys +15 which doesnt require any effort, just know that u arent supposed to stand in fire and you're there.

    TL;DR: It adds Steps to the character progression for some players, and allows higher end players to skip some of the early steps on the ladder on their alts.

    PS: not entirely sure im in favor of the idea, but dismissing it on the premise "I dont gain anything" is just silly.

  14. #34
    The Patient
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    Here's what I'd do to fix progression instead:

    1. Remove all loot & progression lockouts for Mythic dungeons and raid content. Raids are unpopular because loot drop chances are low and you can only get 10 chances at loot once a week from each difficulty mode. In terms of dungeons having a weekly lockout for ilvl 184 loot is dumb game design, especially when keystone runs have no such hard limit on how many times you can run them and how often you can receive loot.

    2. Increase the maximum item level rewards of M+ content to 226 (233 for weapons), to make it match PvP and Raiding. M+ is popular because it's much easier to find a group, requires a far lower time commitment and doesn't have arbitrary weekly loot lockouts compared to raiding. Punishing these players because their preferred method of progression is more popular reeks of Ion Hazzikostas' backwards-as-hell design philosophies.

    3. Make boost selling for gold a bannable offence. Actively enforce it. You shouldn't be able to wallet-warrior your way to KSM or Curve from just buying a few WoW tokens.

    I'd argue that if players can hit maximum item level in a reasonable length of time, they'll feel positively enough about the game to level up alts. On the other hand, if you put everything behind a near-infinite carrot on a stick, you risk frustrating the player base into quitting.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by testsubjectzz View Post
    Like other post, if you unlock everything then why would you continue playing.
    back in wrath and cata i got everything i could get from pvp and pve,and guess what?those 2 expansions is the time i played wow the most,as it turns out if you enjoy the game you still play it even if you have stuff

    also ironicaly in wrath and cata is when i played no alts,these days i have every class

    ofc this speaks more to me personaly than the game itself,i simply enjoyed it more back then,but i still think the game is better today than it was in wrath or cata,you have way more stuff to do,more qoL,better raiding
    Last edited by deenman; 2021-05-03 at 12:10 PM.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by FuxieDK View Post
    All the kids will whine to mummy that Wizard mode is too hard, and then Mums with Creditcards will complain to Blizzard, and Blizzard will cave in and nerf the difficulty..

    We have seen that a thousand times, when they add hard content.
    That makes zero sense considering mythic raiding exists still.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    It's casuals who need catch-up rewards, not high-end. High end can and will already get what they need.

    You're proposing rich get richer and poor get poorer. It doesn't help the right people in need.
    It's not really to fix high end players not getting what they need but not forcing them to grind content that is easy is boring for them, especially on alts.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Drusin View Post
    Because you enjoy playing
    If that was true then you would enjoy unlocking things over time, by continuing to play
    I have enough of EA ruining great franchises and studios, forcing DRM and Origin on their games, releasing incomplete games only to sell day-1 DLCs or spill dozens of DLCs, and then saying it, and microtransactions, is what players want, stopping players from giving EA games poor reviews, as well as deflecting complaints with cheap PR tricks.

    I'm not going to buy any game by EA as long as they continue those practices.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Tumile View Post
    u dont need all the conduits to get +20's done. and even if u did need 3 conduit at 226 ilvl to do them, it would gain u all the other utility ones, for example. Legendary farming is atrocious with the RNG, took me 3 +14 runs, and 62 heroic runs to get my Earth shield legendary. if i could just do a harder version of torghast to acquire it, it would be 100% preferred over spamming heroics for an entire weekend.

    - - - Updated - - -



    the benefit would be that there is a different way to acquire certain items outside of grinding super casual content for them 1 at a time. this would mainly benefit the higher end player in the term of benefits. but would also give the more mediocre players a reason to strive for +20's instead of +14's, for example. motivation to improve and strive for higher content. Personally i havent touched high M+ in SL, there are many reasons why, but the main reason is that I dont need to do them, so there has been no reason for me to bother to learn the dungeons properly, all i need is all keys +15 which doesnt require any effort, just know that u arent supposed to stand in fire and you're there.

    TL;DR: It adds Steps to the character progression for some players, and allows higher end players to skip some of the early steps on the ladder on their alts.

    PS: not entirely sure im in favor of the idea, but dismissing it on the premise "I dont gain anything" is just silly.
    Yeah but thats not what im doing, crimson indicated there was some net benefit about super hardcore players 'escaping' this system and i wanted him to elaborate further on it. So i did read his OP, you should as well and not get all in a tizzy because i wanted to press him on it.

    But as for your rationalization, why not just reward beyond 15? Why suddenly throw everything at 20 players? Im quite fine with 20s getting something. But perhaps be careful. He has also told me he'd rather the endless chain of rewards be squished, not widened. What do you think happens when the reward base increases? The EXPECTATION AND DEMAND ON SUCCESS in those spheres also increase. What do you think then happens when those demands arent met in the lower tiers? That content gets nerfed into the ground. All you are doing is creating a universe where the bar for success increases, and the playerbase who cant quite meet that bar demands nerfs.

    Now consider this as well. In BfA, 10 was your completion criteria. (and legion if i remember right). Now its 15. And because its 15 players are now finishing 15s. You said it yourself, its super easy right? Just "dont stand in the fire" or something. So this is the new normal. Lets go back to hypothetical me languishing in my +6. Well now im not 4 levels away (40%) from basic, im 9 (60%). Lets now bump that up to 20. Now im 14 levels away. Im 70% away from the BASIC goal of mythic dungeon running. That goal of completion just keeps edging further and further away and making me LESS invested in accomplishing it. Not more.

    Whats happening in game to make sure im where i once was at 60% completion and wanting to chase this? Where is that incentive?

    See, the thing is, you are looking at this from a purely 'let them eat cake' standpoint and not understanding how those ramifications impact the wider game. You just see: "I can do a 15, im bored, ive nothing to chase, please give me a reward for my accomplishment!" without seeing the trickle down into the AVERAGE playerbase. They're going to feel like they have to grind even more. They're going to feel like they are treading water even more. Far from suddenly getting a burst of accomplishment, they will feel more defeated and that they are wasting their time and money.

    But lets not focus on them. Lets focus on the +15 crowd who COULD theoretically get this reward. Now they dont have to grind menial content. What do you think is happening next?

    IM BORED BLIZZARD!!! Ive got nothing to do. Ive finished my raids, ive ground out my gear, ive got all the rewards from the day to day system thanks to one hardcore clear several weeks back filling my bags with the new currency. IM BORED!!!

    Its. an. arms. race.

    There was this pardo keynote where he spoke of that guy. "There's this guy in beta, he's gonna finish the leveling content in a week and go off to play another character.... We decided we cant design around him".

    Its two prongs of BS that not only impacts the 'menial average player' (by absolutely crushing them), but also the hardcore player who now finds having finished their very simple task (according to you) of a +20, they now have nothing to strive for except perhaps demanding and pushing extra rewards to incentivize them to hit 25 (and further widen the difficulty curve).

    And heres the thing: Good. Widen it all the way, it just serves to justify nerfing lower difficulty mythics into the ground and putting them into a matchmaking LFD system. But y'all dont want that, right?
    Last edited by ippollite; 2021-05-03 at 12:49 PM.

  19. #39
    This is totally against what Blizzard wants. They want to keep you in the game like 4 ever and never have you log out. And then if you do log out then log back in to do the same shit and content all over again to barely get a damn thing.
    Be careful who you chat it up with here on these forums. If you are NOT for WoW and about WoW, people will report whatever you say and get you banned

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by procne View Post
    If that was true then you would enjoy unlocking things over time, by continuing to play
    Grinding chores is obviously not the same as being able to simply play the single activity you still enjoy.
    Why do you need this explained? Nobody sane likes a virtual job gatekeeping the fun gameplay.

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