Are NPC Party Members An Inevitability?

[enigma77]

Seriously, piss off with your garbage ideas.

[Kyriani]

you actually have to learn the mechanics yourself and you can't get carried with the NPC party, which doesn't work too well for casuals who just want to experience the story. It might have been changed later, but that was my experience with it.

I think that's something that makes the system good and why, if such a thing was ever added to WoW, they should look at FFXIV's trust system as the blueprint.

Ever since the trust system was added I do every dungeon with the NPC's for my first time. It let's me learn the basics of the dungeon at my pace, avoid a queue, and I get NPC flavor text to boot! Then when I find myself in those dungeons again through random roulette, I know what to do and am not a burden to the rest of my party. I've also used the trust system to practice roles I am not comfortable with so I can take my time and actually learn what I am supposed to do without feeling rushed or missing the mechanics entirely because someone else knew what to do and did it before I could figure it out myself.

With all that said, once you do know the mechanics of a dungeon, the trust NPC's can technically carry a player running a DPS job through a dungeon. While trust dungeon runs will never be particularly fast since the NPC's do little to no aoe, they are competent enough to carry you through a dungeon with minimal input or contribution as long as you aren't the tank or healer. For trash you can aggro the pack and go afk. They will kill it... eventually. For bosses, except in a rare few cases, you only have to know what to avoid and avoid it. If you do only that, the NPC's will kill it... eventually. You can use this fact to basically let NPC's level up jobs you may not particularly like or find too difficult for you to perform well with. It'll just be slow as hell. But if speed isn't your concern, and you only care about minimal input/low effort, it's a viable method to level up DPS jobs or acquire items to desynth or turn in for grand company seals.

[Icaras]

I would like to see it, but I'd also like it to be a system similar to 14, where the NPCs aren't just generic randos, but are actually storyline characters I've quested with (be in that expac or others), maybe with a system where I can level them up (Just...not quite as grindy as trusts in 14, yikes!).

I'd still prefer to queue with other players, but it'd be nice to have it the NPCs as a fallback, maybe something that kicks in so you can get into a dungeon right away, and then queue can replace them as you progress, and also able to hop in if people drop out while you wait for a replacement.

Not so much for end game, given most of the player base is here, but I'd really like to see this for leveling content, more so when you factor in that we're split into factions and THEN split into xpacs (until the game decides to open up the queues).

Plus sometimes there are those dungeons you just can't get a group to pop for at the appropriate level (usually those that were end game dungeons like ToC or the ICC 5 mans in wrath.)

[DarkAmbient]

The problem with implementing stuff like this is players typically default to the most convenient ways of doing things. If partying with NPCs is the convenient option then it becomes the default behaviour, and then WoW is a different game.

[ippollite]

Thing is, its not exactly that convenient. My whm has basic insta queues. I get carried by more experienced players (i usually just run through a dungeon once for the msq, so its always my first time). Everything feels quick and smooth.

I just opened up squad rank 2 (allowing command missions - the npc dungeon missions). And honestly it was super boring. Its also kinda annoying having to manage the npcs. This isnt a criticism to be clear. Its just not for me. Id rather queue and play with real people. But that being said, as Kyriani mentioned, should there come a time when i want to learn to tank a dungeon (or if i was learning to heal), im probably going to use it a little more. Not as a means to bypass players, but rather just to ground myself in the mechanics and learn in real time how to run the dungeon. Thats kinda cool.

But on 'convenience', i wouldnt be so quick to assume its automatically more convenient. Yes, you get instant queues (which you get anyway as a healer/tank). But you also get boring, slower dungeon runs.

[Kyriani]

Yea, if WoW implemented such NPC's in a similar way to FFXIV's trust system, then it wouldn't be the most efficient way to do dungeons. The trust NPC's in FFXIV are competent, but are slow to kill things without your help as they almost never use aoe. If you are the tank or the healer, you will have to play your role at a decent enough level to clear a normal dungeon (not that hard). If you are a dps then the NPC's can clear the dungeon without much help from you as long as you guide them to what needs killing, but will do so at a snail's pace.

The pros of FFXIV's trust system are:

1) No queue
2) No pressure to "go go go!"
3) You can take your time to learn the dungeon layout and mechanics
4) NPC's will go to safe spots to avoid mechanics so you can see where those spots are. You still have to be aware of the mechanics as some are punitive to stacking with others and you need to learn which is which.
5) You can take your time to learn how best to use your class in a given dungeon
6) You can familiarize yourself with a role you may not be comfortable with without pressure or judgement
7) You don't have to share any of the loot (this might be less of a pro in wow due to personal loot)


The cons of FFXIV's trust system are:

1) The NPC's need to be led around until they are in proximity to engage a foe. If you aren't careful you can be targeted before the tank gets aggro.
2) The NPC's hardly use aoe and are generally mediocre at dealing damage making the run take longer than it would with players playing at a basic level.
3) The NPC's, while competent, are not invulnerable nor infallible. They sometimes do get hit with aoes and can die (though can be rezzed if you have that capability)
4) The queue might be instant, but the dungeon takes longer to complete.
5) The loot might be uncontested, but there's less of it (this might be less of a con in wow due to personal loot)

Ultimately the trust system can be the more convenient option... but it is never the most efficient option. You sacrifice efficiency (speed) for convenience (no queue/no asshats).

[AcidicSyn]

I think that's something that makes the system good and why, if such a thing was ever added to WoW, they should look at FFXIV's trust system as the blueprint.

Ever since the trust system was added I do every dungeon with the NPC's for my first time. It let's me learn the basics of the dungeon at my pace, avoid a queue, and I get NPC flavor text to boot! Then when I find myself in those dungeons again through random roulette, I know what to do and am not a burden to the rest of my party. I've also used the trust system to practice roles I am not comfortable with so I can take my time and actually learn what I am supposed to do without feeling rushed or missing the mechanics entirely because someone else knew what to do and did it before I could figure it out myself.

With all that said, once you do know the mechanics of a dungeon, the trust NPC's can technically carry a player running a DPS job through a dungeon. While trust dungeon runs will never be particularly fast since the NPC's do little to no aoe, they are competent enough to carry you through a dungeon with minimal input or contribution as long as you aren't the tank or healer. For trash you can aggro the pack and go afk. They will kill it... eventually. For bosses, except in a rare few cases, you only have to know what to avoid and avoid it. If you do only that, the NPC's will kill it... eventually. You can use this fact to basically let NPC's level up jobs you may not particularly like or find too difficult for you to perform well with. It'll just be slow as hell. But if speed isn't your concern, and you only care about minimal input/low effort, it's a viable method to level up DPS jobs or acquire items to desynth or turn in for grand company seals.

I thought the squads were only available in strombringer dungeons and later? How can you level a fresh job using this system? Did they expand it to the earlier dungeons as well? Or do you just enter a high level dungeon on a level 1 job and let the npcs clear it? (If thats the case, do you just zip up the levels doing that or does the squad system level sync and still clear it?)

[Kyriani]

I thought the squads were only available in strombringer dungeons and later? How can you level a fresh job using this system? Did they expand it to the earlier dungeons as well? Or do you just enter a high level dungeon on a level 1 job and let the npcs clear it? (If thats the case, do you just zip up the levels doing that or does the squad system level sync and still clear it?)

The trust system is only available for Shadowbringers dungeons and beyond, but you can take any job from 71 to 80 using it. For earlier leveling you can use the squadron from your Grand Company. The squadron NPC's are the precursor to the trust system and far more primitive and crude in comparison, but they can take a Job from 20 to 60 abouts. There is a gap from 61 to 71 where the squadron can't get you relevant amounts of XP due to not being able to take you through Stormblood dungeons. So you have to use more traditional leveling methods to fill that gap.

You can't go into any of the regular dungeons as a lvl 1. You can use the Deep Dungeon for that though, but there's no NPC's to carry you through that. The earliest you can do dungeons with NPC's (the sqaudron) is at level 20 which is the minimum level for the dungeon Halatali. More dungeons become available as you level up. It bears noting that the Squadron is not something that's available until level 50 and requires certain requirements to be fulfilled before they can be used for this purpose. The squadron NPC's also have levels and get xp. They need to be high enough to meet the minimum level requirements for a dungeons just like you do, though they can be sent on missions similar to WoW mission table missions to get XP if you aren't in the mood to run dungeons with them.

In the sense of automated play and having more direct control over them, the squadron NPC's are superior to the trust NPC's. They can be commanded to attack a specific target and will use AoE making them clear much faster if you set them up properly. On the downside, they have no AI for boss encounters and mechanics like the trust NPC's do. So they just stand in crap and can be killed without directly commanding them to follow you during boss certain fights to avoid boss mechanics. Keep in mind that just like trust NPC's, the squadron NPC's can only carry you if you're on a DPS job. If you are on a tank or healer job then you'll have to actually participate and fulfill your role properly.

[darklogrus]

Problem is can Blizzard actually make them useful and not a huge waste of time like the last 3 tries. WoDs version were pointless, Legions versions was some of the worst all around I had ever seen and then in BFA it reverted back to being worthless..

[ASecretOne]

I think it's definitely an inevitability. Just look at the alleged sub numbers1 going down each expansion. They need something to keep people playing, whether it's more solo content for the solo players or more content for the people who can't find others who want to play how/when they do. I already can do all the content I do without speaking a word to other people, may as well make it easier for people like me to push content on my own schedule rather than locking myself down to the will of others.

[AcidicSyn]

The trust system is only available for Shadowbringers dungeons and beyond, but you can take any job from 71 to 80 using it. For earlier leveling you can use the squadron from your Grand Company. The squadron NPC's are the precursor to the trust system and far more primitive and crude in comparison, but they can take a Job from 20 to 60 abouts. There is a gap from 61 to 71 where the squadron can't get you relevant amounts of XP due to not being able to take you through Stormblood dungeons. So you have to use more traditional leveling methods to fill that gap.

You can't go into any of the regular dungeons as a lvl 1. You can use the Deep Dungeon for that though, but there's no NPC's to carry you through that. The earliest you can do dungeons with NPC's (the sqaudron) is at level 20 which is the minimum level for the dungeon Halatali. More dungeons become available as you level up. It bears noting that the Squadron is not something that's available until level 50 and requires certain requirements to be fulfilled before they can be used for this purpose. The squadron NPC's also have levels and get xp. They need to be high enough to meet the minimum level requirements for a dungeons just like you do, though they can be sent on missions similar to WoW mission table missions to get XP if you aren't in the mood to run dungeons with them.

In the sense of automated play and having more direct control over them, the squadron NPC's are superior to the trust NPC's. They can be commanded to attack a specific target and will use AoE making them clear much faster if you set them up properly. On the downside, they have no AI for boss encounters and mechanics like the trust NPC's do. So they just stand in crap and can be killed without directly commanding them to follow you during boss certain fights to avoid boss mechanics. Keep in mind that just like trust NPC's, the squadron NPC's can only carry you if you're on a DPS job. If you are on a tank or healer job then you'll have to actually participate and fulfill your role properly.

Awesome thanks for all of that, its helpful (lol at me saying stormbringers though, thank you for correcting that too)

I was always a whm when I played before but I quit the day after getting my weapon from titan (or the quest that had me attacking him anyway) I think that was heavensward? Either way yeah, I think I might try it out again, the trust and squad stuff sounds really interesting. Thanks again

[Kyriani]

Awesome thanks for all of that, its helpful (lol at me saying stormbringers though, thank you for correcting that too)

I was always a whm when I played before but I quit the day after getting my weapon from titan (or the quest that had me attacking him anyway) I think that was heavensward? Either way yeah, I think I might try it out again, the trust and squad stuff sounds really interesting. Thanks again

Happy to be helpful! I'm a WHM main myself in FFXIV, though I am eager to give Sage a try in the coming expansion!

[Hugnomo]

As a casual I am supportive for reasons that I'd like to explain.
- For one, which many people have said already, lfg dungeons and lfr are already pretty indistinguishable from playing solo, and where it stands apart is usually in negative ways. Casuals who look for interaction as a way to either ask for help/advice or to merely strike a conversation are usually ignored or berated from the majority who don't want to lose time and just want to do the content as fast as possible.
- And second, again as a casual, having the opportunity to play content that you never played in roles that you never played or lack competence at, in a solo mode, where you can make mistakes and improve without wasting other people's time, would actually help me get into those social types of content, because I would feel better prepared and more competent to do so.

[RemasteredClassic]

I'm just imagining them having to individually code AI for each combat role to corrrctly follow the mechanics of each dungeon that comes out in the future. Honestly, is probably too much ongoing effort so blizzard won't do it. Either blizzard would have to make ANOTHER difficulty level or this will force the difficulty level of content that its for for everyone.

Mayb an easy way that does not require scripting AI would be by buffing a single player with the same powers of a healer and a tank (maybe an extra bar of generic healing/tanking skills and stats increase upon zoning into this difficulty type) and let them solo all level appropriate normal dungeons and lfr raids, adding 3 random dps npc's and having the player control them as if they were hunter pets could work.

DPS npc's can just auto follow the tank/healer (the player) by staying in a circle around the player, doing so would ensure the player has to do mechanics properly, while dps npc's can just assist attack and do AOE attacks...etc. The player has the responsibility of self healing and tanking. The generic dps NPC's could auto self heal upon say reaching below 50% of their HP.

The 3 random DPS NPC's could be replaced with the player's own alts (actual characters owned by the player) that they could level up at the same time by having XP split up among all 4 characters.