In-game Raider.io score

[ellieg]

Pretty much. Effective cooldown usage is the number one factor in your overall being good in a key, thus doing GOOD DAMAGE. That only comes with practice. Hence the experience part of the equation.

Unfortunately there are people with inflated item levels that feel like they should be taken to mundane keys let's be honest 15s are pretty mundane because they didn't want to bother with KSM before.

I feel this abt cds. So many ppl hold onto cds because "what if I might need it". Or they underestimate just how much time they actually have before the boss. Playing a frost dk with a 1 min cd has really opened my eyes to how often I can squeeze them in. Id argue the biggest difference between a 4k overall dps player and 7k overall dps player is cd usage. A little bit of mechanical skill in there but the better player will have close to double the cd usage

[melzas]

Yep, pretty much.

But you don't want that, you want to get boosted by players with higher score who have completed KSM, so you are using RIO. Which is why RIO is cancer and new system is shit.

Without stupid system you'd have to find other players who want to get KSM, push keys together. Might get some players who'd be doing that for fun. But because RIO exists, even if you are not using RIO, large enough part of player base near KSM level are using it, so players with high score see that you don't have KSM and avoid your group, thus making your task harder than it would have been if KSM didn't exist at all.

Systems that are designed to divide player base are always bad in what supposed to be MMO. Blizzard should have never exposed runs data, which made RIO possible.

Thanks, running m+ with completely random players hoping they don't suck and know how to play isn't for me so if that's the best you can offer as an alternative to Rio then that's pretty sad.

[erifwodahs]

Rio is not used to find proper people, it’s used to find overqualified people.

If there are plenty of overqualified people signing up - sure. If you have to wait 40mins before you can find 1.5k dps for your +15 run, might as well go with lower rio ppl, but you can fill it up with 1.5k rio people in 5mins so...
It's also self fixing on higher rio. People who have done 20s in some key don't have any need to do another 20 unless it's their key so most 20s will be done by people who need it. Ofc. there are people who would join a 20 which they have done before, but if you wanted a full party like that - you will have to wait.

[chiddie]

Did u use Rios in your +12s? Did u invite ppl with 800ish score. I know i did

No I didn’t. Because I basically never used my keys so I only checked rio of the party starters (rio of party members is not shown) .

[Necromantic]

We should just bring some of these anti-R.IO people to some keys. Let 'em show us their skill and knowledge of the dungeons. No comms, either. They KNOW what to do.

I do higher keys than most people and I think RIO is garbage because of...

Taking a 1200 dude for a 15 is not “taking whoever” it’s taking people that on paper are capable to do that content.

People just want to bruteforce keys and that’s all. I can somehow understand that, but at least let’s not suppose it isn’t true. Rio is not used to find proper people, it’s used to find overqualified people.

This is why I feel bad for so many people. The system is designed to alienate.

This is also the only game I've played that does this. Other games have much better systems.

And while you may think "but it doesn't affect you..." it still doesn't mean I'm not all for making good systems that work for everyone and don't give control to incompetent people. Look at what else it's done... it's brought out the worst in people. WoW has had it's history of toxicity but the way the system works just exacerbates it greatly.

[chiddie]

Did you just start playing last month? Where have you been the past four?

Why do people have to shoulder the burden of inexperienced players because you happened to get to the party late? If you truly wanted KSM you'd have it by now.

No, I wouldn’t have it because I can play max 8-10 hours per week in roughly 1 hour sessions. This means a grand total of 1 M+ per session (and not even all sessions because in the beginning Torghast and renown quests mattered).

Stop pretending that ppl still without KSM are all just lazy or retarded or whatever

And how on earth 1200 rio ppl are “inexperienced people”? It’s not they got to 1200 by randomly pressing buttons.

[Necromantic]

Good joke. R.IO is best utilized for higher keys.

There is no joke, it's complete garbage and the game was better before it existed.

But that's just my 2 cents.

[chiddie]

I'm not aware of any strict guidelines or definition for how to properly use Raider.io scores.

This statement has nothing to do with what I said.

I said what it’s used for, not that that usage is wrong per se.

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I'm not aware of any strict guidelines or definition for how to properly use Raider.io scores.

This statement has nothing to do with what I said.

I said what it’s used for, not that that usage is wrong per se.

[erifwodahs]

I do higher keys than most people and I think RIO is garbage because of...



This is why I feel bad for so many people. The system is designed to alienate.

It's designed to find people with similar experience/skill and quite often similar mindset. Same as guilds essentially. You don't play with outside people after you find a decent guild to do M+/Raid/PvP. You join a guild with people who are very casual and chill or you join a guild with experienced players going for fast clears with no weak players. I am in a guild of ex-mythic raiders, so our HC raids are fast and clean as I approach raids casually, but have no desire to wait for people to learn to dodge bad stuff.
Any matchmaking/rating game does the same. Any challenging content will create that filter too in some way or form - guilds, gear checks, achievement checks, discord communities, forums. You don't see regional football team players playing against Sunday League dads, do you? None of the sides would enjoy it.

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There is no joke, it's complete garbage and the game was better before it existed.

But that's just my 2 cents.

Well, wow had things like that since classic so idk. I have been refused a raiding guild invite because of my age before, so being rejected for not having experience is better for me than being rejected for being 15, because for some reason 16 yo are considered better players.
I have been rejected invites because of gear checks and not having enough resilience rating/being wrong spec/class. So was the game any better ever? I don't think so.

[chiddie]

You are still holding onto this argument 2 weeks after, drop it already.

Things are simple, the way the game is designed everyone can scale their gear to similar levels after a certain period of time.

Now combine that with every Volcanic and Quaking week, hell even Grevious and Sanguine weeks, and you have freebie weeks that gear can easily carry literally no matter what.

If you havent understood yet where i am going with this.

Someone that has 1100-1300 raider.io since lets say, February 2021, lets not say the actual timetables which are more accurate, isnt the same with someone that has 1300 raider.io in May 2021, generally.

This cant be seen in game, but it can be seen on the site, no one will bother to check also because they will get better applications either way so there is no reason to delve that deep.

I dont bother with keys higher than 15, never cared unless people just pester me to tank them, i have been at 1200-1300 for weeks before i got my KSM because i couldnt care, then they announced the Valor stuff and obviously had to unlock it and got it the same week, where i passed the 1300 mark and got it, etc etc.

I am still at the same raider.io for the last 3 months, if i try to apply at a +20, of course i am gonna get denied, and i know why, i aint fucking stupid, it doesnt matter if i can do it or not, there is nothing that can show the other player that i wont destroy the run.

The 1200 player is the same, its May 2021, if you were any decent or remotely dedicated to the game even 5%, you would have done KSM, 2-3 months ago minimum, and farming alts or just playing for fun by now.

People really need to accept the segregation this game has and their actual skill level, but they refuse to do so.

If you are behind the curve for any particular reason (IRL life matters/lack of skill) whatever it might be, its no ones obligation to deal with you, you should know your level and adapt to it, aka find similar people to play with.

The annoying thing is that instead of simply saying “yes, you should be invited but unfortunately the design is flawed and you’re forced to push your key only “ you (not you in particular, a general you) just continue repeating that being declined is just perfectly normal like a mantra.

It isn’t. It’s hardly rio’s fault (infact I’m NOT against rio as I said multiple times) but it’s an issue indeed.

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I do higher keys than most people and I think RIO is garbage because of...



This is why I feel bad for so many people. The system is designed to alienate.

This is also the only game I've played that does this. Other games have much better systems.

And while you may think "but it doesn't affect you..." it still doesn't mean I'm not all for making good systems that work for everyone and don't give control to incompetent people. Look at what else it's done... it's brought out the worst in people. WoW has had it's history of toxicity but the way the system works just exacerbates it greatly.

I will answer gladly because you seem to be a dude who understand what I’m trying to say.

I fully understand why rio is a thing and even if it’s not perfect it’s better than nothing but let’s not pretend it’s simply... well, better than nothing. The actual issues in M+ are not caused by the players but by the M+ structure itself. When timers popped out, we all knew that it would have ended like this.

[guru-gamer]

I fully understand why rio is a thing and even if it’s not perfect it’s better than nothing but let’s not pretend it’s simply... well, better than nothing.

You think it would be better if players were whispering their keys and/or KSM achievement? In Legion players were whispering keys, and when someone showed up in garbage gear b/c they were carried - kicked.

[Necromantic]

It's designed to find people with similar experience/skill and quite often similar mindset. Same as guilds essentially. You don't play with outside people after you find a decent guild to do M+/Raid/PvP. You join a guild with people who are very casual and chill or you join a guild with experienced players going for fast clears with no weak players. I am in a guild of ex-mythic raiders, so our HC raids are fast and clean as I approach raids casually, but have no desire to wait for people to learn to dodge bad stuff.
Any matchmaking/rating game does the same. Any challenging content will create that filter too in some way or form - guilds, gear checks, achievement checks, discord communities, forums. You don't see regional football team players playing against Sunday League dads, do you? None of the sides would enjoy it.

That may be how it was intended but that's not how it's used. As stated, it's (and nobody here can lie and say it's not) used to find people not similar, but far beyond your level. And while that's not the direct fault of the addon, it's the indirect fault.

No, not all matchmaking games do the same. I play Diablo 3 (made by the same company) and it matchmakes games. It won't even allow you to try matchmaking for the highest content until you've cleared certain SOLO content that you CANNOT be carried through. Nobody says "oh, you're not paragon 1000+? You can't join my content tailored for paragon 400 people"

Guilds are good but not always feasible for everyone.

Well, wow had things like that since classic so idk. I have been refused a raiding guild invite because of my age before, so being rejected for not having experience is better for me than being rejected for being 15, because for some reason 16 yo are considered better players.
I have been rejected invites because of gear checks and not having enough resilience rating/being wrong spec/class. So was the game any better ever? I don't think so.

Classic or vanilla because nobody did this in vanilla. In vanilla, you just shouted for groups and got whoever responded that you needed. I play on a higher population server so I can only speak for my own but the whole "inspect people then invite" didn't start until Cata and even at that time, people were laughed at for doing that. "LFG XXXX, must be geared to my standards" then you'd see a 2 dozen people replying "lol!" or "lmao!"

And how can you be refused from a guild because of your age? How would they even know? If they're asking how old you are for recruitment, they're idiots. I'm sorry to say, but they are.

[chiddie]

You think it would be better if players were whispering their keys and/or KSM achievement? In Legion players were whispering keys, and when someone showed up in garbage gear b/c they were carried - kicked.

No I don’t think that’s why I said it’s better than nothing.

But it’s just a number with its pros and cons, like all the numbers.

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you can definitely get to 1200 by randomly pressing buttons... just watched a mage with ilvl 223 and 1300 rio get outdpsed by the tank when doing keys on an alt... the tank was ilvl 206... i didn't even know it's possible to do 1.9k dps with ilvl 223...

You can of course, especially if you’re not an healer or tank, but it’s not the standard.

[ellieg]

That may be how it was intended but that's not how it's used. As stated, it's (and nobody here can lie and say it's not) used to find people not similar, but far beyond your level. And while that's not the direct fault of the addon, it's the indirect fault.

No, not all matchmaking games do the same. I play Diablo 3 (made by the same company) and it matchmakes games. It won't even allow you to try matchmaking for the highest content until you've cleared certain SOLO content that you CANNOT be carried through. Nobody says "oh, you're not paragon 1000+? You can't join my content tailored for paragon 400 people"

Guilds are good but not always feasible for everyone.





Classic or vanilla because nobody did this in vanilla. In vanilla, you just shouted for groups and got whoever responded that you needed. I play on a higher population server so I can only speak for my own but the whole "inspect people then invite" didn't start until Cata and even at that time, people were laughed at for doing that. "LFG XXXX, must be geared to my standards" then you'd see a 2 dozen people replying "lol!" or "lmao!"

And how can you be refused from a guild because of your age? How would they even know? If they're asking how old you are for recruitment, they're idiots. I'm sorry to say, but they are.

Look at the mechanics present in vanilla dungeons. Compare that to an m+15. Thats why there's rio. They are nowhere near comparable so of course the requirements are vastly different.

[Necromantic]

Look at the mechanics present in vanilla dungeons. Compare that to an m+15. Thats why there's rio. They are nowhere near comparable so of course the requirements are vastly different.

There are some differences. In Vanilla, CC was a must. There was no zerging dungeons in a literal sense.

Even in other expansions when heroics were introduced and the difficulty spiked a lot, nobody did gear checks. And the funny part is, comparing ratios, I've seen more groups fail while doing said checks vs when they weren't a thing.

I stand by my opinion of the matter. Devs should have taken a page from another of their own game's playbook and things would be much better.

[erifwodahs]

Classic or vanilla because nobody did this in vanilla. In vanilla, you just shouted for groups and got whoever responded that you needed. I play on a higher population server so I can only speak for my own but the whole "inspect people then invite" didn't start until Cata and even at that time, people were laughed at for doing that. "LFG XXXX, must be geared to my standards" then you'd see a 2 dozen people replying "lol!" or "lmao!"

And how can you be refused from a guild because of your age? How would they even know? If they're asking how old you are for recruitment, they're idiots. I'm sorry to say, but they are.

OG bank inspects were a thing in vanilla. Tho, as you said, it was mostly "invite everyone in" and that is why stuff which takes 1h now took 4 hours back then.
TBC inspects for permades were done at the battle masters in Shatrah City.
WotLK had dalaran bank inspects and then it had gearscore in bit later patches so it certainly was not something what happened in cata.
A lot of guilds back in the day had guild application forms, so yea, they knew. Unless I lied

[Necromantic]

OG bank inspects were a thing in vanilla. Tho, as you said, it was mostly "invite everyone in" and that is why stuff which takes 1h now took 4 hours back then.
TBC inspects for permades were done at the battle masters in Shatrah City.
WotLK had dalaran bank inspects and then it had gearscore in bit later patches so it certainly was not something what happened in cata.
A lot of guilds back in the day had guild application forms, so yea, they knew. Unless I lied

I never seen that thing on my server until Cata but as I said, it was laughed at even then. I know many server communities were different. Heck, people that had never done the dungeons before were welcomed with open arms because we all have to learn somehow.

I never had a group take 4 hours in vanilla so I do feel bad for anyone who did. It maybe took a half hour tops to get a group together... a few minutes to get there depending on where we were going. But today, we have dungeon finder to do the crap work for us and instantly taking us to the entrance which shaves off quite a bit of time.

Maybe it's that we're so used to these QoL improvements that we've grown less tolerant for people who don't have our experience. I don't mind, myself. I was a noob once and I had to learn somehow.

But still, your age? They really asked you that on the application? I've never seen that before but that is sad.

[ellieg]

There are some differences. In Vanilla, CC was a must. There was no zerging dungeons in a literal sense.

Even in other expansions when heroics were introduced and the difficulty spiked a lot, nobody did gear checks. And the funny part is, comparing ratios, I've seen more groups fail while doing said checks vs when they weren't a thing.

I stand by my opinion of the matter. Devs should have taken a page from another of their own game's playbook and things would be much better.

A +15 is much harder than the original cata dungeons. You said you do keys higher than most ppl. Would you mind linking your char so we can prove that?

Besides the occasional mob that needs sheeped, especially during inspiring week, CC is done in the form of interrupts, stuns, and silenced now. Casting sheep once every minute per pull isn't hard. Making sure 2-3 priority spells per pack don't go off is harder.

Mechanics in earlier game was a patch of bad might spawn near u, don't stand it. Or mobs face cleave, stand to the side. Mechanics now are much harder.

[Bloodyleech]

There are some differences. In Vanilla, CC was a must. There was no zerging dungeons in a literal sense.

Even in other expansions when heroics were introduced and the difficulty spiked a lot, nobody did gear checks. And the funny part is, comparing ratios, I've seen more groups fail while doing said checks vs when they weren't a thing.

I stand by my opinion of the matter. Devs should have taken a page from another of their own game's playbook and things would be much better.

Wrong. CC wasn't needed in Vanilla AT ALL. Vanilla is/was the easiest version of this game. In BC heroics while undergeared? Happens, but not as regular as you'd think.
People did gearchecks, if you want or not - it was a thing before cata.

[Necromantic]

A +15 is much harder than the original cata dungeons. You said you do keys higher than most ppl. Would you mind linking your char so we can prove that?

Besides the occasional mob that needs sheeped, especially during inspiring week, CC is done in the form of interrupts, stuns, and silenced now. Casting sheep once every minute per pull isn't hard. Making sure 2-3 priority spells per pack don't go off is harder.

Mechanics in earlier game was a patch of bad might spawn near u, don't stand it. Or mobs face cleave, stand to the side. Mechanics now are much harder.

No, I'm not linking anything. I don't need to prove anything and I'd rather not have a stalker.

Yes, a +15 may be "harder" (depending on your definition of the word) but the fact still remains that the way it's designed, it encourages alienation. That fact cannot be denied. As stated, I do not directly but indirectly blame the addon.

This is nonsense. When I put keys up in the PF I invite people well below me CONSTANTLY. Because those are the people that are signing up. You grab what you have to when doing keys at times. General rule of thumb for me when pugging any key is if they've done the key that I'm posting -1 level AT MINIMUM. Generally works fine.

Guess that's just my anecdote against yours. Weird.

That may be you but you're definitely not a majority by any means. And as you said, anecdotal. I have Horde and Alliance characters on different servers and the results on both are the same.

That being said, "nonsense" is an incorrect word.

Wrong. CC wasn't needed in Vanilla AT ALL. Vanilla is/was the easiest version of this game. In BC heroics while undergeared? Happens, but not as regular as you'd think.
People did gearchecks, if you want or not - it was a thing before cata.

CC was needed back then. Don't believe what Google or whoever fed you otherwise.

And gearchecks may have been done but it was laughable in Cata and would have been even more so before that.