Poll: Different gear for different role?

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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    The most immediate benefit of current stats is that they are simply friendly to new players, you don't have secret caps and shit.
    I think that's a very convenient opinion in favour of the "new" stats.

    Hit nor Expertise were terribly complicated, after all, it's not like Miss and Dodge / Parry were something that a new player never saw before, if you leveled a character, you sure as shit noticed that some of your abilities missed, got dodged or parried.

    It's not like a Hit / Expertise cap are reasonable to reach during leveling or made a massive difference if one somehow managed to actually overcap it.
    You see some Misses / Dodge / parry in your screen => Get some hit / expertise and they occur less frequently, not exactly complicated.

    Of course, in the endgame you need to be aware of caps, but in the same vein, you also need to be aware of stat priorities with the more modern stats and i think there it's where they lose their simplicity.

    That a player on their own figures out you need X% vs. a Boss is about as realistic as a person figuring out that spec X stacks stat Y on their own, unless the toolkit gives some very distinct queues that stat X is very favorable for a given spec (which is also not necessarily true in every case).
    For "both" stats, you need to look up caps or priorities, but i think in the instance of hit / expertise, it's easier to replicate the knowledge onto other characters.

    How much Hit do you need to have no misses versus a boss?
    I think almost any every player in TBC - MoP could have answered that, because the knowledge is universally true for everybody.

    What is the stat priority for spec X?
    No one but the people that have done a modicum of research into a given spec (where it may also vary depending on the situation) can answer that.
    Not to mention that they can easily change with a patch / hotfix, whenever a new build becomes "Meta", not being hitcapped certainly was never the Meta as far as i'm aware.

    Let's be real, how does a new player figure out whether a Ring with Mastery / Vers or Crit / Haste is better for them?
    They don't, they need to look up the stat priorities.

    I'm not saying those stats were awesome, but the arguement of new players falls through for me because Hit / Expertise are so self explanatory and the game itself even answered this later on by providing a basic hit table whenever you mouse overed the hit stat on your character sheet, whereas the stat priorities between Mastery, Crit, Haste and Vers are virtually impossible to figure out without a simulator.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2021-05-04 at 09:18 AM.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Xires View Post
    i'd like for them to bring back fun stats like multistrike and armor pen.
    I really disliked Multistrike, for two reasons. Firstly, it was basically just another from of Crit with slightly different things it might proc. Secondly, it was the Elemental Shaman Mastery, so Elementals effectively ended up with two stats (MS and Mastery) doing what had been done my only one before. Now, during the beta Elementals with high MS and Mastery were amazing. Chain Lightning for miles! However, that was deemed to be Fun, and was thus nerfed to hell.

    Armour Pen had real balance problems, tending to be worthless or too good. It also messed up PvP balance between armour types. Taking out Armour Pen and then adding Mastery with its per-spec behaviour was a good move, IMO. However, it does require classes be locked into specs (so none of those vanilla, BC, and LK hybrid builds) unless the Masteries are per-class and very wide ranging (which is likely to make them boring).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trumpcat View Post
    Whether it's gear or not I prefer to see the roles focused on excelling in their respective field. I dislike the "meta" where a good healer is judged by the damage they do besides keeping everyone alive.

    Unfortunately in the recent interview Ion showed to be embracing the idea. Instead of healing and utility and supportive actions he expressed that the good healer is indeed the one who also dishes damage.
    I used to be that healers were judged by their ability to keep people alive and to manage their mana so that they could do it all fight long. That's why the variety of heals (unless you were a Pally, in which case mana management was mostly about gearing right), and the various ways you could regen mana mid-fight. Work the 5-second rule, use Innervates, etc., and for some specs (pretty much all in Cata), work some attacks in that would return mana. At the time in Cata I thought this was a bad idea, but in retrospect it was really good, though better implemented for some specs than others.

    While I'm asking for a pony, I might as well go the whole distance - I'd also like a healing model where the Shaman Mastery (which I really like) was worthwhile again in raids. It's a life-saver in M+ runs, but in raids the chances of getting a decent heal to land on someone when they're low enough for Mastery to shine is pretty low, so Shamans don't stack Mastery, so the effect is reduced, making it even less impactful.

  3. #83
    It's crazy that so many people voted "yes" to this obvious downgrade. I'm curious to know if these are actual people who ever play multiple specs that would require different sets of gear or just forum theoreticians...

    Collecting completely separate different set of gear just to TRY out your other specs was the biggest pain on earth. No value at all, but lots of downsides.

    ps. And people arguing in favor of hit/def/expertise caps...I've no words man
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  4. #84
    Anyone wanting to bring back hit/defense on gear is on some crazy drugs. That shit was fucking awful, hit was BiS till you hit it, then completely and utterly fucking worthless. It wasn't exciting or engaging, it was you literally land the ability you cast instead of missing, thank fucking god it is gone. Defense wasn't exciting or engaging or fun either, it was you need x amount to not die, and after that it turned into vers basically.

    As for the other defensive stats (dodge/parry/block) I can kind of get, that is you want a different play style, more tank less damage, the only issue is if you put that on gear it makes the gear completely useless to everyone not tank. I'm not sure the best way but I wouldn't mind if they found a method to make it so as a tank you could convert damage into defense directly, that is you are tankier but do less damage. Maybe some stance esq way where you can do a "battle stance" for damage or "defensive stance" for less damage, but I get why they don't as balancing the two would be very frustrating.
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  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Shammyrock View Post
    Nobody who wants hit or Def rating in the game actually played when they were
    Wrong. I played when they were. I tanked through BC and I 'DPSed' as Ret when I could. I also kept a Holy set for raiding when we didn't need more tanks (healers were always in short supply for our raids). On top of that, I kept swap pieces so I could sit at the hit and expertise caps for raids and dungeons, and also kept a Ret and a Holy PvP set in BC.

    In LK I mained Ret, sometimes tanked (so had a reasonable tank set - full Defence, Hit, & Expertise, but not a complete tier set), and healed a LOT and so had Ret and Holy tier sets, plus the rest of those sets, plus a Ret PvP set. OH, and I had a Ele/Resto Shaman with Ele and Resto sets as complete as I could make them, PvE and PvP. So yes, I bloody played when Hit, Expertise, and Defence were in the game, and you had to be uncritable and uncrushable if you were to tank as anything but a Bear (they were only expected to be uncritable).

    And you know what? I miss those stats. I miss gemming and enchanting to go on or juuuust over cap, while getting the best out of your socket bonuses, etc. I miss mucking round with a new piece of gear, working out how best to fit it into my gear set, rather than just "it's higher ilevel and doesn't have my worst stat, so on it goes".

  6. #86
    Elemental Lord sam86's Avatar
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    yes i want the return of tbc/wrath gear, classic was way too basic, but wrath was way better
    i know ArP was flat out broken status but still return it, just don't put it on every single item, maybe it will be only-gloves status to 'balance' it
    the only thing i hated in wrath with how spirit was beneficial to warlocks and mages, i can't stomach it, specially warlocks
    Quote Originally Posted by Argorwal View Post
    Would love a class unique armor slot.

    Quivers
    Sigils
    Totems
    Throwing stars
    Holy symbols

    All kinds of ways to handle it.
    I miss that a LOT, way more than i thought i'd, I LOVED just see those unique items
    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    Defense and Hit were the least fun stats in the game, no one liked them. They sucked. People hated them. They were reviled. Livid that they existed. They were the bane of everyone - no one liked them. Ever. Not at all. Not even a little bit. It was universally one of the most despised aspects of the gearing system that wound players up to demanding these stats be done away with so that gear could be opened up and people could go for raw power on gear without having to worry about these arbitrary stat goals which
    pls talk about ppl who don't like RPG aspects in RPG game, because I actually loved the idea of rpg
    don't get it wrong, hit/defense status were annoying, but even annoying are better than flat out remove them and have no rpg replacement for them (which we have now)
    It was always funny when a warlock aggro any mob in a raid and get 1 shot because his defense was in 100 rating due to his pet while lvling XD
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  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by hulkgor View Post
    The fact that you do not understand this simple difference, and decide to call out others with silly reasoning, just makes me scratch my head in confusion. Just go play a tank or healer in vanilla to 'experience' this feature request, and figure it out for yourself.
    I don't see anyone asking for +Healing and +Spelldamage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    No one but the people that have done a modicum of research into a given spec (where it may also vary depending on the situation) can answer that.
    Not to mention that they can easily change with a patch / hotfix, whenever a new build becomes "Meta", not being hitcapped certainly was never the Meta as far as i'm aware.
    There was a time (I think in Cata) where Shadow Priests did not need to be hit capped for maximum DPS. However, the general consensus was that, because adding Hit to cap wasn't a significant DPS loss, and because being hit-capped made managing your DoTs so much easier, you should hit cap.

  8. #88
    Elemental Lord sam86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalisandra View Post
    And you know what? I miss those stats. I miss gemming and enchanting to go on or juuuust over cap, while getting the best out of your socket bonuses, etc. I miss mucking round with a new piece of gear, working out how best to fit it into my gear set, rather than just "it's higher ilevel and doesn't have my worst stat, so on it goes".
    thank you, i miss the rpg in mmorpg, wow has way too low rpg to be rpg game, it is getting to lvl soon to be as rpg as cod or AC
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  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Velerios View Post
    First and foremost: i don't want to have gearing like in classic where healers would solo hit like a wet noodle and tanks could tank a lot of mobs and not dying, but couldn't kill anything without taking up way to much time.

    But would it maybe be better, if we had gear back that require you to go with your role in the raid/mythic+? So in this case: Tanks getting defensive-rating, DPS needs hit (or something better) rating and Healer need Spirit to heal effectively. And that as a healer you should focus to heal in a raid but not to dps. And adding back choices to customize gear through enchants but also with gem slots like in tbc.

    I think that many people disliked it that new gear dropped but you couldn't use it on the spot, because you need to enchant, add gems, reforge it before you could swap it out, but is the alternative right now better when you can put gear on, and totally forget about it; because the ilvl is higher or it has more of the rating you need? (and with more enchants right now you already need to wait to put it on)

    And that blizzard should probably care less about borrowed power and go back to make gearing more complex: tinkering with your gear is far more interesting than having a new table where you can customize your borrowed power. (And not in a way where you get azerite bonuses on gear that is so complex that you need to look upon a website what powers are useful or not; because in the end it was the same "table" of borrowed power, just attached to your gear)

    And a bit off topic: add more armor slots! The quiver in 9.1 for example: why replace your cloak with it, this is a perfect example what should be an armor slot just for Hunters. At the beginning maybe a class specific slot just for it: Quivers for Hunters, Librams for paladins and so on; this would also make gearing a bit more complex and could add a way for blizzard to add borrowed power in a way it was since classic, through gear.
    One of the best changes ever was, that you could use gear on different specs. Now i can heal and play moonkin if we need a DPS more than one healer. Otherwise i would have to wait with DPS gear until everyone is geared.
    IF we had e.g. hit and spirit back i would only be ok with it if it also changes with spec. I do not want to have 4 completly different sets of equip back in my inventory or have to reforge again because i have to much/not enough hit. Was a useless function. Everyone just used an addon that reforged it for you to perfection.

    No idea why you made the turn to borrowed power again. Nothing to do with your original topic. We get sets back in some form. So there is that.

    More gear slots? Why not. I always liked relics and stuff like that.

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalisandra View Post
    Work the 5-second rule
    I am imagining the utter awfulness that would ensue if this became a thing again. Blechhh.
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  11. #91
    Pandaren Monk Chrno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    One of the best changes ever was, that you could use gear on different specs. Now i can heal and play moonkin if we need a DPS more than one healer. Otherwise i would have to wait with DPS gear until everyone is geared.
    IF we had e.g. hit and spirit back i would only be ok with it if it also changes with spec. I do not want to have 4 completly different sets of equip back in my inventory or have to reforge again because i have to much/not enough hit. Was a useless function. Everyone just used an addon that reforged it for you to perfection.

    No idea why you made the turn to borrowed power again. Nothing to do with your original topic. We get sets back in some form. So there is that.

    More gear slots? Why not. I always liked relics and stuff like that.
    It seems you prefer a character building process which is a not complex with litle variety in stats and not having to collect multiple gear sets for different purposes (the role you wish to play). Also acquiring gear is a personal making it a much more smooth process where you don't have to rely on others.

    Reading this post i wonder wether you would be ok with it if blizzard did away with gear as a whole basicly creating a level playing field? or limit the amount of a gear / relics you can acquire? Or is it not the level playing field you're after but that you don't want to put in the time/effort to craft you character to be able to preform multiple jobs?
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  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monkeymootwo View Post
    I feel like a lot of people didn’t mind one “hit” stat. But needing hit AND expertise was just fucking stupid.

    As far as stats go though what could they even really add? Personally I hated armor pen. Versatility is boring af.

    I know it’s prob near impossible to balance but I wish they made it so you could kinda pick what you wanted. Like as a caster if you wanted to gear for haste to just spam the fuck outta spells that’d be viable but if you instead stacked crit yeah you’d cast slower but they’d hit harder. But it’d be close enough you could just pick what you prefer. That sounds fun to me :P
    I guess I'm odd but I kinda liked multistrike

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrno View Post
    It seems you prefer a character building process which is a not complex with litle variety in stats and not having to collect multiple gear sets for different purposes (the role you wish to play). Also acquiring gear is a personal making it a much more smooth process where you don't have to rely on others.

    Reading this post i wonder wether you would be ok with it if blizzard did away with gear as a whole basicly creating a level playing field? or limit the amount of a gear / relics you can acquire? Or is it not the level playing field you're after but that you don't want to put in the time/effort to craft you character to be able to preform multiple jobs?
    Yeah...because reading a guide or using a mod to tell you what stats are best is SOOOOOO complex

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrno View Post
    It seems you prefer a character building process which is a not complex with litle variety in stats and not having to collect multiple gear sets for different purposes (the role you wish to play). Also acquiring gear is a personal making it a much more smooth process where you don't have to rely on others.

    Reading this post i wonder wether you would be ok with it if blizzard did away with gear as a whole basicly creating a level playing field? or limit the amount of a gear / relics you can acquire? Or is it not the level playing field you're after but that you don't want to put in the time/effort to craft you character to be able to preform multiple jobs?
    No i like gear. And i actually would like for gear to be harder to come by. IMHO it is allready again way to easy. But is dislike making thing artificially harder with arbitrary stats just to fullfill a need for more complexity for nothing.
    If they did that i would have all these sets. I would be annoyed because hit was always useless and i have not read a good reason for breaking a system no one really complained about until now suddenly.
    I also don't think aquiring gear is a personal thing but mostly a group effort. And that is good.

  14. #94
    God no, gearing is already miserably slow right now

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalisandra View Post
    I used to be that healers were judged by their ability to keep people alive and to manage their mana so that they could do it all fight long. That's why the variety of heals (unless you were a Pally, in which case mana management was mostly about gearing right), and the various ways you could regen mana mid-fight. Work the 5-second rule, use Innervates, etc., and for some specs (pretty much all in Cata), work some attacks in that would return mana. At the time in Cata I thought this was a bad idea, but in retrospect it was really good, though better implemented for some specs than others.
    This has literally never been the case, unless you're doing the most casual of content. In old Heroic(Mythic now) healers were CONSTANTLY dpsing, every second that they could, which is the exact same as now.

    The issue is that you need your content to be completable by a wide array of players, which means there's going to be a range of players where the dps and tanks can dodge damage/manage their cooldowns to significantly lessen the healer load, which leads to situations where the good healers will have situations where there is physically no healing they can do. In your "really good" scenario, those healers would what, twiddle their thumbs?

    Hell, Cata was really bad for this, if you played a druid and had pre-raid gear, you literally regened more mana than you could spam out because lifebloom just made your mana infinite.
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  16. #96
    Epic! Malania's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    Defense and Hit were the least fun stats in the game, no one liked them. They sucked. People hated them. They were reviled. Livid that they existed. They were the bane of everyone - no one liked them. Ever. Not at all. Not even a little bit. It was universally one of the most despised aspects of the gearing system that wound players up to demanding these stats be done away with so that gear could be opened up and people could go for raw power on gear without having to worry about these arbitrary stat goals which, let's be real, were all automated with addons eventually anyway.

    People will not ever actively engage with so much crunching of numbers with gear - they'll just get an addon to tell them what pieces of gear they own are optimal to equip, and then whatever interaction you have with the gear gets thrown out the window.

    And hell, even if you forced addons to not mess with calculating stats on gear, people would just throw character info into sites. So okay, maybe you shut down those sites, then people with better math or more patience to do all the math manually suddenly get an edge in damage-wise. Guilds with those who calculate, what, are they expected to do it for the whole guild now? This kind of angle on Defense and Hit Caps is absurd. There's no good reality that comes around as a result of this. People WILL find a way to game the system and make it unfun for everyone, putting aside that Defense and Hit are insanely unfun just by themselves. But even for people who would normally find any kind of enjoyment in Def/Hit/Exp, others will ruin it for those people as well.

    But, to directly answer the question.
    With Personal Loot in the game, gear can be as specific as it needs to be, when it works (and lord I can't stress that enough).

    That said, for ease of comprehension and simplicity it's probably best there aren't too many different stats to learn.

    The essential secondary stats that are in the game cover nearly all essential ground that is needed as they are.

    Any other class specific interaction can be baked into passives that interact with established stats, so there's no real need to reintroduce other misc stats when a conversion stat passive can do the job.

    There's a reason the Defense and Hit/Exp and Res and Pen and Regen stats and all that went out the window -- they were inferior design, they were automated and not interacted with anyway, they weren't fun, they were a waste of dev/balance time, so they were axed.
    I had no problem with hit as a DPS. Best stat if you don't have enough, worst if you're capped. It just made planning your stats and drops ahead interesting. New item drops with hit which is an upgrade, you can swap off hit somewhere else. I wouldn't mind a return along with reforging.

    All stats are automated, you do not interact with any of them. They're simply a variable in the calculator that the game is.

  17. #97
    I will admit this game has a few problems but I wouldn't put gear design on the mechanical side very high on that list. Sure I could see a few improvements or wish list items that might make it better or worse but over all its not where I would focus any energy.

  18. #98
    Pandaren Monk Chrno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kithelle View Post

    Yeah...because reading a guide or using a mod to tell you what stats are best is SOOOOOO complex
    nowhere in my post did i say it was or has ever been complex? However, allot of people don't bother with google / spreadsheets and/or addons. So in their eyes it DOES create a form of complexity. You shouldn't forget that allot of people (mostly, but not exclusively, non-raiders) just do 'what feels right' but ultimately have no clue ... some random inspects in stormwind shows this.

    That was why the current system was introduced in the first place. Now people can just look at the item level


    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    No i like gear. And i actually would like for gear to be harder to come by. IMHO it is allready again way to easy. But is dislike making thing artificially harder with arbitrary stats just to fullfill a need for more complexity for nothing.
    If they did that i would have all these sets. I would be annoyed because hit was always useless and i have not read a good reason for breaking a system no one really complained about until now suddenly.
    I also don't think aquiring gear is a personal thing but mostly a group effort. And that is good.
    alrighty, i was just wondering why people are so opposed to having stats on gear Only having itemlevel as a benchmark for what gear is great just feels really dull for me. But i guess it's alright to agree to dissagree

    p.s. There was ALLOT of complaining on these very boards about the stat changes on gear back in the day. As a matter of fact, complaining is what mmo-champ is for right ?
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  19. #99
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    Post

    Of course, however, my opinion is not a secret for anyone within the forum.

    Their current system "scales" gear to level/role(=spec) - it takes away control from player. What should be done first? Unscrew roles from specializations (role problem, which link mentions, appear just because of this, violation sequence of hierarchy - wrong design, otherwise "soft role change" will be even easier, just change gear and you're almost tank/heal, may be not perfect one, but quite viable, since those mechanics are always with you, as representative of class), in other words, there is need to rework classes' design back to state of "class is class, a single whole, and not portion of fries from specs". What's the second? Return system of rating characteristics, which allow set desired role by player with kit of characteristics (equipped gear; at the same time, work of these characteristics, as well as stats, in general, is fixed for all game's participants, they give everyone same in a certain amount, which, moreover, can be moderated (add/modify/change) by players through choice of some corresponding talents and gear: if spirit gives regeneration, so it does for anyone, and it doesn't matter at all whether you need it or not, it's your choice, your decision use this particular item, and only you will be responsible for it, but no other "scaling" = changing mechanism), without being tied to either level or specialization. Next, should start cutting out system of scalable rewards, and after it, all scalable stuff from the game. It's not needed, moreover, it's harmful.

    This is if in short.

    - some theses -
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    - equipment is not your class, only bearer of characteristics, specializations (it's more correct to say “talents' build” because "spec" is dead concept) mostly aren't take away or add class mechanics, but only make those or other more preferred to use. The end of story.


    What follows from this? Equipment is carrier of characteristics (about which topic begun to talk, but stoped), characteristics determine your role, and I'm not talking about these wretched, barely tortured three roles and one buried, but about those that you yourself will choose based on set of characteristics and talents, which means that they can't beinteresting” in principle, can't contain any “key class mechanics” = changing class mechanics (don’t even stutter, everything will turn into dolceous AA and its derivatives, also here thoughts about tier gear).
    This part of system will never be normal until game has acquired complete, universal system of characteristics, well-thought and, like all ingenious, extremely simple(+/+). All that they are giving you is not universal, it’s temporary from prospect of taking it from you and changing it equivalently and in a circle, just like “class” affixes in any equipment... type. I don’t even want to delve into it, but you know yourself how much all those systems are trying to overplay, invade, enslave class fantasy from outside, starting with PvP talents and ending with "so interesting" characteristics.
    tl;dr
    1)
    tanking characteristics give bonus to effectiveness of "tanking" abilities (threat/damage/all-forms-of-avoidance), while damage abilities will naturally hit less because you'll have less common useful characteristics, hp-loss/receiving-damage in this case brings strong decrease in threat level without first ones; 2) outgoing heal significantly increases threat's level, and overheal even much stronger; 3) general PvE characteristics (hit/expertise/regeneration; don't confuse with generally useful ones) add efficiency bonus to all abilities for observing parameters of encounter (like soft-timers/resource-depletion/enrage, etc.); 4) resilience primarily affects only interactions between characters (for both having this characteristic: sums up for "supporting each other" abilities - maybe even up to a certain regeneration bonus with positive activity for healing/treating character, subtracted for "acting against" ones - up to significant decrease in effectiveness of recipient's "PvE tanking" characteristics = help attacker to partially ignore them), in other words, it gives that same increase in protection and damage in PvP activity and living without it will be very uncomfortable;
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    Chosen characteristics are your role customisation mechanism and gear is its main keeper, so customisation = gear matters.
    No matter how many items of this level exist with different characteristics, the main thing is that you have a controlled choice. Therefore, the more items at your disposal, the more opportunities you have for customization, but since gear=customization, than it remains important.
    - He assumes that everyone chooses a piece of clothing depending on general characteristics he/she prefers for the own role (it could be even rogue tank/support, everything possible, gear is your role not you class, remember DKs from WotLK, that's why guardian/feral fills no problem in been at the same talent branch, but they changed/broke it). They aren't tied to character general progression (= class; unlike silly AA), they are tied to progress in expansion (= gear). And there is no such stupid stuff like many random items on 1 id = scaling to ilvl/lvl/spec (scaling/RNG=automatic=not your choice≈no choice for current system); characteristics are fixed on this particular item (you can disturb them a little with reforging and that's all, than put more effort with professions and here you go - you have all control over your customization):
    You have control over choose which item you need, know where and how get it and how you will custom it.
    - Hail the player, f*ck devs' dictatorship
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    But this exactly is purpose of talents, since classes design implies a completely different kind rather than stupidity that they made of it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    There're no classes in their ideal World of design, just 4 (t/h/rdd/mdd) roles and 36 specs with different sets of icons for abilities.
    Ie, hierarchy of choice and gameplay in general was approximately the following (in opposed to current one):
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    racial part goes cross-classes (bonuses, base animations), class' (abilities and mechanics) part goes cross-specs (build = talents), talents' part goes cross-roles, since last one is mostly controlled by “momentary choice”: priority of abilities, used gear and other temporary "progress" stuff
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    Technically, what you argue about as part of content is 1. "situational" every second choice + 2. choice that is made within system's work for a fairly long time together (both are parts of one system): 2. is "permanent" not for 1 fight, but for a while before meeting with class trainer together with loosing time and money for "re-qualifies" you (it's class “umbrella”, which consists of full set of class' abilities (mostly permanent completely) and, being overwhelming majority of them passively, talents of build (not spec)) - choice, and 1. consists of equipped items (= characteristics) + particular using spells during encounter - flexible options.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    Exactly then it was possible since such system let hybrid classes exist, and what became of them now? What become with all various characteristics that not so much reinforced "absolute" indicators of characters strength, but more players' "role" choice, even if taking into account "holy trinity" (also, this isn't ultimate truth because I repeat - don't forget support, which is 4th)? That is, any class was able to at least partially fulfill not only role assigned to it by devs, and therefore even "holy trinity" based encounters design didn't severely limit group as a whole (unbalanced from current point of view) abilities.

    Even DK, which appeared in WotLK (MoP monks weren't already), still confessed this "religion", because tanking/dd role completely depended on character RPG customization... but now... everything depends on chosen "spec" and no one care what player thinks about it (the whole "role" RPG part is integrated inside it and you can't change anything), we have only one opportunity to play - the way it was decided by Blizzard and nothing else (by the way, "gladiators" part was the only bright ray in dark realm of specs after "design cataclysm" that destroyed everything, but it was just an exception, and what became of them only proves my point).
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    ps. Main advantage of old trees wasn't diversity (although it was, global system allowed to have it, but why? and answer is further), but freedom to choose each/any/little step of progress/castimization elements without violating class priorities. In other words, what was previously part of choice is no longer one = it's spec's default package now, but what was previously available to class as such has become "choice element" and not even everything, but only stuff, that devs decided for this spec... imo, deal is wildly unfair.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    their unpruning now looks incoherent first of all exactly because they're just "pieces" of something big you don't have, which devs still don't want to return to you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    In other words, it's right to know your "general" role and behave correctly, but speaking roles, I have to clarify that there're much more of them (than 3) and that they were hidden in certain selection of talents and characteristics.
    - - - - -
    build + items, I won't go into issue in more detail, think you already understand in general what this is about without my additional comments, we are talking about literal purpose of build and personal "situational rotation" priorities, because it can be battle-heal assist, right? it's just because within framework of current design of encounters, this is often not encouraged/required in any way, but this doesn't mean that it can't be done otherwise
    - - -

    No-no-no! It's necessary to play a class, of course, and if that "customized" set of features and characteristics allows you to do something better, then completing such tasks will become your priority place, where you'll want to shine, but "the whole class" being needed to know and play! And for this, first of all, you need to shake out correct design from devs, but, unfortunately, so far this ain't happening very successful.
    - - -
    This is
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    There are effectively 36 distinct classes.
    Finally! It was officially recognized (exactly this wording)
    the way they made it(+), but not the way it should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    Any choice, imaginary or real, "right" or "wrong" must be controlled by player itself, all that can be done by automatic system is to say "OK!" and check spreadsheet ("set in stone") what system's rules are for this case, but not to artificially limit player's choice. Modern system is very restrictive for players, every step is trying to swallow all outcomes "undesirable" in its opinion, but doesn't try to "be correct"/work for every random case right/wrong, good/bad, desired/undesirable (it tries to "fix" (=change) and(or) impose "its own" possible full or partial solution (tries to replace player by self), rules become flexible (as they try to please multiple mutually exclusive systems), and result with each iteration is less certain even for devs themselves). Someone will say that this is impossible, in a sense it's, you can only get as close as possible to, while system should be as simple as possible (as literal as possible), and not provoke multiple dependencies that are controlled by automation systems *looking at all forms of scaling, structure of servers/world/content* you get the idea.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    problem here is more like case described by Bruce Willis' hero here
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    And then you look at what characteristics can help players in choosing their role, which ones will be mandatory for particular sphere of game content, and which are universal, which will be preferable for one role, and which for another... then it goes issue of itemization... and so on, and so on.
    Last edited by Alkizon; 2021-05-07 at 07:31 AM.
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  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrno View Post
    nowhere in my post did i say it was or has ever been complex? However, allot of people don't bother with google / spreadsheets and/or addons. So in their eyes it DOES create a form of complexity. You shouldn't forget that allot of people (mostly, but not exclusively, non-raiders) just do 'what feels right' but ultimately have no clue ... some random inspects in stormwind shows this.

    That was why the current system was introduced in the first place. Now people can just look at the item level




    alrighty, i was just wondering why people are so opposed to having stats on gear Only having itemlevel as a benchmark for what gear is great just feels really dull for me. But i guess it's alright to agree to dissagree

    p.s. There was ALLOT of complaining on these very boards about the stat changes on gear back in the day. As a matter of fact, complaining is what mmo-champ is for right ?
    Then i did not see those threads^^

    I am not opposed to more and more diverse stats. Just making gear useless for another spec again... like spirit and hit in the old sense. If spirit would come back and do more than just give you mp5 you could use it also as say moonkin and feral. Or like a tertiary stat that lets you take less magic damage. Or slow selfhealing infight.
    But if you take away say mastery on a piece and slap mp5 on it it will be useless as a leather piece for everyone but restodrudis. And while it would not be as bad as in the past due to personal loot it could still happen, that you get a piece of armor that no one can use at the second kill. Like druid set pieces in classic. Useless^^
    Give us 2 or 3 new stats. No objections from me. Just... don't make those stats 100% useless for certain specs.

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