In-game Raider.io score

[chiddie]

There is nothing wrong per se in feeling entitled to be invited to other people's keys based on your own personal criteria instead of the criteria of the person who holds the key. Just as there is nothing wrong per se to not want to play with people that feel that they are entitled to play with you.

But it is a 100% waste of your time to harbour such feelings as people who have the minimum of will that it requires to list their own keys also have the minimum of will to stand by their own criteria when they make a group.
As long as you rely on other people to lead you then you have to accept the rules put up by the leaders. It goes for WoW and any other human activity.

I can agree, but there are criteria and criteria.

Trying to get into a 15 with only 5 completed is an absurd will. Trying to get into a 15 with a 14 completed is just a normal will.

You are trying to paint this “I will invite only overrioed ppl, sorry” behavior as perfectly normal, but it isn’t. It’s understandable, but it’s not normal and it’s not surely “working as intended”.

[T-34]

I can agree, but there are criteria and criteria.

Trying to get into a 15 with only 5 completed is an absurd will. Trying to get into a 15 with a 14 completed is just a normal will.

As I said it is completely irrelevant what the applicant thinks is "normal" or "correct" when he applies to a a key. It is the prerogative of the key-holder to decide what is "normal" or "correct". That is 100% supported by Blizzard.

You are trying to paint this “I will invite only overrioed ppl, sorry” behavior as perfectly normal, but it isn’t. It’s understandable, but it’s not normal and it’s not surely “working as intended”.

Could you show me where Blizzard writes "how you are intended to decide whom you invite to you group"?
The only thing I can find is this:

"Note: Groups formed outside of the queue system (Guild Runs, Mythic +, etc.) will not utilize the vote-kick system. Instead those groups will have one party leader that controls who gets invited or removed."

https://eu.battle.net/support/en/article/52363

So Blizzard explicitly gives the right to the party leader whom he will invite or whom he will kick from his group. Blizzard says nothing about which criteria that you are "intended" to use when you pick your party members.

[erifwodahs]

You are trying to paint this “I will invite only overrioed ppl, sorry” behavior as perfectly normal, but it isn’t. It’s understandable, but it’s not normal and it’s not surely “working as intended”.

It's very normal. Why? Because there are enough of overqualified people in low keys. It would be very strange if people purposely took worse odds at successfully completing a key.
Is it working as intended? Well, it helps you to find people to do a key with best reasonable odds - so yeah, it's working as intended.

- - - Updated - - -

So Blizzard explicitly gives the right to the party leader whom he will invite or whom he will kick from his group. Blizzard says nothing about which criteria that you are "intended" to use when you pick your party members.

This. For all I know I could invite players based on how many lvl 25 pets they have or "write a joke in the note" and then invite the best joke player. I can invite people with highest ilvl OR the worst. Most people are going the optimal way, so that's perfectly normal.

[chiddie]

As I said it is completely irrelevant what the applicant thinks is "normal" or "correct" when he applies to a a key. It is the prerogative of the key-holder to decide what is "normal" or "correct". That is 100% supported by Blizzard.



Could you show me where Blizzard writes "how you are intended to decide whom you invite to you group"?
The only thing I can find is this:

"Note: Groups formed outside of the queue system (Guild Runs, Mythic +, etc.) will not utilize the vote-kick system. Instead those groups will have one party leader that controls who gets invited or removed."

https://eu.battle.net/support/en/article/52363

So Blizzard explicitly gives the right to the party leader whom he will invite or whom he will kick from his group. Blizzard says nothing about which criteria that you are "intended" to use when you pick your party members.

Giving up, you are clearly missing the point. Being allowed by the game to behave in a certain way does not mean that behavior makes sense automatically.

Enjoy.

- - - Updated - - -

It's very normal. Why? Because there are enough of overqualified people in low keys. It would be very strange if people purposely took worse odds at successfully completing a key.
Is it working as intended? Well, it helps you to find people to do a key with best reasonable odds - so yeah, it's working as intended.

- - - Updated - - -



This. For all I know I could invite players based on how many lvl 25 pets they have or "write a joke in the note" and then invite the best joke player. I can invite people with highest ilvl OR the worst. Most people are going the optimal way, so that's perfectly normal.

Dude? I know it’s normal and why it’s normal, I’m simply saying it should not be normal.

It’s also normal being constantly insulted in game without any consequences for who’s insulting, but it should not be normal.

[T-34]

Giving up, you are clearly missing the point. Being allowed by the game to behave in a certain way does not mean that behavior makes sense automatically.

Well, you have your right in-game to play with people in a way that makes sense to you, as long as you abide by the ToS and behaviour policy. That includes how you invite people to your group.

Other people have the exact same right to play the game in a way that makes sense to them, as long as they abide by the ToS and Blizzards' behaviour policy. That includes how they invite people to their group.

Blizzard does not give anyone the right to have their "sense" matter more than other people's "sense", as long as they don't conflict with the ToS and behaviour policy. Blizzard doesn't ANYWHERE at all state how and whom you are supposed to invite to your group.

When you play WoW it is Blizzard that decides what is wrong and right and how you are supposed to play. Nothing in Blizzard's in-game policy supports your notion of "what makes sense" in any way whatsoever.

Added:
I should add that I fully support that people can make their group however they want and based on whatever criteria they want. There is no wrong or right here, neither "legally" or morally.
When I meet demands by a group leader that I find ridiculous I acknowledge his right to do so and find another group to play with.
I also sometimes don't get invited to groups that I find that I am qualified to join, but I just shrug and either find another group or make my own.

[Necromantic]

But we have this system now!
Raider.io specifically shows other people your experience with the content that you want to find other people to do.
Experience in single-player content, as in D3, is considerable more irrelevant compared to Raider.io as it only shows your experience in single-player content, whereas Raider.io shows your experience in doing relevant group content.

So people now can use a very useful tool, raider.io, to filter out entitled players or they can make their own group based on whatever other criteria they want: They can do it based on ilvl, name, server or whatever other criteria they want.

I don't care if someone is able to do some single-player challenge, I want to know if someone is able to interact and overcome group content with other people, because M+ tests your ability to do exact that and not your ability to do single-player "challenges". And that is exactly what raider.io helps you to know.

It's not the same. D3's system isn't bias. Nobody in D3 prevents you from entering a Torment 16 game because you're not to a paragon level of their personal standards. You proved yourself by soloing a greater rift level 75.

Again, there are solutions for people, but most of them don't want solutions, because those who want to play m+ - they manage it quite easy. People don't look for solutions, they look for problems which they can blame for their inability to do something about their problems. Hell, some of those people post here so much they could have joined 5 M+ communities/guilds.

High end rio community does not care about casuals doing m+ and progressing, what we care about is them coming here and blaming their pet death on RIO. And rio is something why are still playing this game that's why there is so much opposition. It's not that there is some rio illuminati who keeps casuals from "climbing".

Would I be opposed to some sort of proving grounds to be able to use matchmaking for m+? No. Crack on, but you have to understand how much toxicity and blame game it would have. Just let others keep rio and manual matchmaking and we would never have any reason to interact and mix.

I don't agree at all. What's feasible for you may not be feasible for me. A guy who plays the game all day long (but pretends he plays an hour or two a day to paint his narrative) will have opportunities others cannot reach.

And yes, people find problems but that's a good thing. The only way you continuously improve is to identify problems and resolve them the best you can. Denying they exist, planting your feet in the ground and drawing a line in the sand doesn't help anything/anyone.

But as I said to another guy, why can't both manual and auto exist? Same concept with mounts. If you don't like them, don't use them but let those who do use them.

[Popokolara]

Well, you have your right in-game to play with people in a way that makes sense to you, as long as you abide by the ToS and behaviour policy. That includes how you invite people to your group.

Other people have the exact same right to play the game in a way that makes sense to them, as long as they abide by the ToS and Blizzards' behaviour policy. That includes how they invite people to their group.

Blizzard does not give anyone the right to have their "sense" matter more than other people's "sense", as long as they don't conflict with the ToS and behaviour policy. Blizzard doesn't ANYWHERE at all state how and whom you are supposed to invite to your group.

When you play WoW it is Blizzard that decides what is wrong and right and how you are supposed to play. Nothing in Blizzard's in-game policy supports your notion of "what makes sense" in any way whatsoever.

Added:
I should add that I fully support that people can make their group however they want and based on whatever criteria they want. There is no wrong or right here, neither "legally" or morally.
When I meet demands by a group leader that I find ridiculous I acknowledge his right to do so and find another group to play with.
I also sometimes don't get invited to groups that I find that I am qualified to join, but I just shrug and either find another group or make my own.

i dont understand why you are responding to commentary about player to player interaction being ugly with "technically you have freedom in setting up your grp". I understand why it is so, and why it is better to look for non toxic grp, i just dont get, why you are stating it, how is it contributing or even relevant. are we arguins semantics of normal=what should be happening, and normal=what is observed to be common.

[T-34]

It's not the same. D3's system isn't bias. Nobody in D3 prevents you from entering a Torment 16 game because you're not to a paragon level of their personal standards. You proved yourself by soloing a greater rift level 75.

I don't care if you can solo stuff as that says nothing about your ability to interact with a group and overcome content in a group setting.
It might be "un-biased", but it is much more irrelevant than your raider.io-score/dungeon experience, as that shows your experience in doing GROUP content.

By the way nothing stops you or anybody else now from inviting people based on whether they have bronze, silver, gold or even endless in proving grounds.
But people prefer to invite people based on their experience in doing the challenging GROUP content instead of inviting them based on their experience of doing SINGLE PLAYER content.

[erifwodahs]

Giving up, you are clearly missing the point. Being allowed by the game to behave in a certain way does not mean that behavior makes sense automatically.

Enjoy.

- - - Updated - - -


Dude? I know it’s normal and why it’s normal, I’m simply saying it should not be normal.

It’s also normal being constantly insulted in game without any consequences for who’s insulting, but it should not be normal.

No one said insulting is normal, if you think that it is normal, there is a problem somewhere, because it's not "normal" and it's against the game rules, while forming a group is not.
Being able to create your groups you wish to create is very normal. Being able to invite people into a guild according to the guild standards is normal. Inviting people into rated BG according to your standards is normal. Inviting players into TMOG farm according to your standards is normal too - be it 226ilvl or 200ilvl or One of each class only.

[Necromantic]

I don't care if you can solo stuff as that says nothing about your ability to interact with a group and overcome content in a group setting.
It might be "un-biased", but it is much more irrelevant than your raider.io-score/dungeon experience, as that shows your experience in doing GROUP content.

By the way nothing stops you or anybody else now from inviting people based on whether they have bronze, silver, gold or even endless in proving grounds.
But people prefer to invite people based on their experience in doing the challenging GROUP content instead of inviting them based on their experience of doing SINGLE PLAYER content.

That's not entirely true. FFXIV and other MMOs even have solo content that prepares you from group content by teaching you things and giving you challenges so that you're not a 5th wheel when you enter.

Why are you so opposed to other people having another option to progress? Nobody is talking about taking away your ability to exclude people.

[ellieg]

i dont understand why you are responding to commentary about player to player interaction being ugly with "technically you have freedom in setting up your grp". I understand why it is so, and why it is better to look for non toxic grp, i just dont get, why you are stating it, how is it contributing or even relevant. are we arguins semantics of normal=what should be happening, and normal=what is observed to be common.

Because some ppl want to ride in on their rainbow unicorn and hold hands with everyone and sing campfire songs. They cry about how the world or the game "should" be according to them. But that is just their opinion. And crying on the forums is a waste of time because nothing will change. A day spent wishing is a day wasted.

Ppl need to stop crying that they can't get into groups. There are multiple avenues to accomplish their goals. It sucks that their strategy from +2-+14 hits a major obstacle in your path at +15, but its them that needs to adapt.

"Oh no, I have limited playtime and so I only queue for dungeons i need instead of running my own key. But I can't get invited" hmmm, seems like saving time only doing other ppls keys you need isn't actually saving time anymore. Sucks u lose efficiency. Suck it up and be less efficient running your key even if its not a dungeon u need. Itll eventually be one you need. In the mean time ull get better selection in your vault.

[erifwodahs]

I don't agree at all. What's feasible for you may not be feasible for me. A guy who plays the game all day long (but pretends he plays an hour or two a day to paint his narrative) will have opportunities others cannot reach.

And yes, people find problems but that's a good thing. The only way you continuously improve is to identify problems and resolve them the best you can. Denying they exist, planting your feet in the ground and drawing a line in the sand doesn't help anything/anyone.

But as I said to another guy, why can't both manual and auto exist? Same concept with mounts. If you don't like them, don't use them but let those who do use them.

Well, I did not say that pointing out problems is bad, but dismissing every solution is counterproductive.
I specifically said, that go ahead and ask for auto-que, just don't claim that there no other solutions to the problem. Because there are more than on. If none of the suits you, I am sorry I guess. And trust me, auto-que will thrive on toxicity and failing groups because you will have players from various levels mixing together

[T-34]

i dont understand why you are responding to commentary about player to player interaction being ugly with "technically you have freedom in setting up your grp". I understand why it is so, and why it is better to look for non toxic grp, i just dont get, why you are stating it, how is it contributing or even relevant. are we arguins semantics of normal=what should be happening, and normal=what is observed to be common.

Because some people think that some kind of player interactions are "correct". Some people think that you are supposed to interact with them and/or invite them based on their criteria. I just show them that Blizzard does not in any way share their sense of "correct" and that Blizzard does not anywhere state how you are supposed to interact with people or how you are supposed to invite people to your group.

Blizzard explicitly gives you the right to do it however you want. There is no "right" or "wrong" way to setup your group.
And there is nothing "toxic" about picking people for your group based on your own criteria.
On the other hand it is very toxic to try to force other people to invite you to their group based on your own criteria.

[Necromantic]

Well, I did not say that pointing out problems is bad, but dismissing every solution is counterproductive.
I specifically said, that go ahead and ask for auto-que, just don't claim that there no other solutions to the problem. Because there are more than on. If none of the suits you, I am sorry I guess. And trust me, auto-que will thrive on toxicity and failing groups because you will have players from various levels mixing together

There can be various solutions but when the same solution is parroted over and over, I don't blame them for dismissing it, especially when it's been established multiple times for a long time that "push your own key" is not feasible for everyone else. A homeless man begging for money/food and someone wants to say "just go get a job!" thinking "it's JUST THAT SIMPLE!" but not knowing all the circumstances surrounding it. The man may have lost everything in some kind of house explosion that rendered him unable to work. Not everyone has a perfect life and can go on a linear path.

Because some people think that some kind of player interactions are "correct". Some people think that you are supposed to interact with them and/or invite them based on their criteria. I just show them that Blizzard does not in any way share their sense of "correct" and that Blizzard does not anywhere state how you are supposed to interact with people or how you are supposed to invite people to your group.

Blizzard explicitly gives you the right to do it however you want. There is no "right" or "wrong" way to setup your group.
And there is nothing "toxic" about picking people for your group based on your own criteria.
On the other hand it is very toxic to try to force other people to invite you to their group based on your own criteria.

That's a pretty rigid way of thinking. "It doesn't matter if it's rude, I do it because I can and it's legal!"

And nobody is or ever has forced anyone to invite them to their groups. I don't know where this logical fallacy ever came from.

[T-34]

That's not entirely true. FFXIV and other MMOs even have solo content that prepares you from group content by teaching you things and giving you challenges so that you're not a 5th wheel when you enter. Why are you so opposed to other people having another option to progress? Nobody is talking about taking away your ability to exclude people.

I would greatly support if WoW had more content that prepared people for doing challenging player-organized group content.
Blizzard tried this with demanding silver proving grounds for entering heroics and we all know how that turned out.

I don't want WoW to become a game like FFXIV that caters to lowest common skill denominator and where competitive players are harassed and bullied.
I don't want WoW to become a single player game with a MMO-aspect.

I want WoW to remain what WoW is good at: Challenging group content, PVE and PVP, where the players themselves decide how and with whom they play.
There are plenty of games that cater to people that don't like the social competitive aspect of WoW.

[erifwodahs]

That's not entirely true. FFXIV and other MMOs even have solo content that prepares you from group content by teaching you things and giving you challenges so that you're not a 5th wheel when you enter.

Why are you so opposed to other people having another option to progress? Nobody is talking about taking away your ability to exclude people.

come on dude, Torghast had no rewards locked behind it and people cried so much for the nerf even tho it wasn't that hard. Imagine +15 being locked behind relevant solo challenge it carries actual rewards. Can you remember mage tower when it was released? It only became "cool" in late 7.2 when everyone was overgearing it. At release it was crazy river of tears.

[Necromantic]

I would greatly support if WoW had more content that prepared people for doing challenging player-organized group content.
Blizzard tried this with demanding silver proving grounds for entering heroics and we all know how that turned out.

I don't want WoW to become a game like FFXIV that caters to lowest common skill denominator and where competitive players are harassed and bullied.
I don't want WoW to become a single player game with a MMO-aspect.

I want WoW to remain what WoW is good at: Challenging group content, PVE and PVP, where the players themselves decide how and with whom they play.
There are plenty of games that cater to people that don't like the social competitive aspect of WoW.

You must play a different FFXIV than I do. In that game, it's competitive players that harass non-competitive players.

And nobody is asking for WoW to become a single player game. But what's wrong with single player content, especially ones that prepare you?

And we get it, you like to pick/choose who you play with. You've made that quite clear. Again, nobody is talking about taking away your ability to make your little exclusive club.

[ellieg]

There can be various solutions but when the same solution is parroted over and over, I don't blame them for dismissing it, especially when it's been established multiple times for a long time that "push your own key" is not feasible for everyone else. A homeless man begging for money/food and someone wants to say "just go get a job!" thinking "it's JUST THAT SIMPLE!" but not knowing all the circumstances surrounding it. The man may have lost everything in some kind of house explosion that rendered him unable to work. Not everyone has a perfect life and can go on a linear path.



That's a pretty rigid way of thinking. "It doesn't matter if it's rude, I do it because I can and it's legal!"

And nobody is or ever has forced anyone to invite them to their groups. I don't know where this logical fallacy ever came from.

If you can join a m+ group, you can form one yourself. Pray tell what is stopping someone from doing that?

[T-34]

There can be various solutions but when the same solution is parroted over and over, I don't blame them for dismissing it, especially when it's been established multiple times for a long time that "push your own key" is not feasible for everyone else. A homeless man begging for money/food and someone wants to say "just go get a job!" thinking "it's JUST THAT SIMPLE!" but not knowing all the circumstances surrounding it. The man may have lost everything in some kind of house explosion that rendered him unable to work. Not everyone has a perfect life and can go on a linear path.



That's a pretty rigid way of thinking. "It doesn't matter if it's rude, I do it because I can and it's legal!"

And nobody is or ever has forced anyone to invite them to their groups. I don't know where this logical fallacy ever came from.

Show me where I wrote that you could/should be "rude to people"? I sure hope you aren't twisting my words.
Being abusive to people is against the ToS, that goes both for people that make their own group and to people that apply to groups.

Not inviting people to your group isn't rude.

[Necromantic]

come on dude, Torghast had no rewards locked behind it and people cried so much for the nerf even tho it wasn't that hard. Imagine +15 being locked behind relevant solo challenge it carries actual rewards. Can you remember mage tower when it was released? It only became "cool" in late 7.2 when everyone was overgearing it. At release it was crazy river of tears.

A "crazy river of tears" is a good indicator that there is a problem.

Plenty of people who forget that others may not be as super mega ultra awesome at the game as they are and insist that people are just whining for no reason.